Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Sephiroth]

[quote]Oh, there weren't people in TOP and former Gramlins leadership telling IRON to fire off all it's nukes at your Karma allies ... and then once they were empty, the Citadel would basically come in and force a white peace?[/quote]
Claims like these are ridiculous. I was King of the FCC at the time and took more damage and nukes in that war against IRON than during the noCB when I was in MK engaged with 6 wars the entire time. Citadel alliances ate lots of nukes for those we came in to help at the time. I was the leader of a Citadel alliance and went from 9k infra to under 5k infra in that war.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Methrage' date='08 February 2010 - 10:44 PM' timestamp='1265687068' post='2169669']
Claims like these are ridiculous. I was King of the FCC at the time and took more damage and nukes in that war against IRON than during the noCB when I was in MK engaged with 6 wars the entire time. Citadel alliances ate lots of nukes for those we came in to help at the time. I was the leader of a Citadel alliance and went from 9k infra to under 5k infra in that war.
[/quote]
That's not what Krack is getting at. Some in Citadel tried to arrange for IRON to have an easy fight (as Bob said, because they were allies and felt IRON was only involved because of treaties). This didn't fly with Superfriends because they ("we" at the time for me) had fought a war where IRON targeted a SF member for specific damage [i]and expected to leave the war with white peace[/i].

The problem was IRON's attitude, which was encourage by some in TOP and Gramlins. They felt they were entitled to easy terms. They weren't. Then they even whined about beer reviews, for crying out loud. The fact that TOP especially went to bat for people like that spoke volumes and bred enmity.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

Just a quick point, Krack, to note two things:
1)TOP was engaged against five alliances during the Karma war and some of the battles that took place were nuclear in nature. I'm not sure which ones exactly - I'd have to check again - but I do know that I fired nukes and was fired nukes at.

2)I don't think nobody, in TOP, will deny that they were trying to get white peace for IRON from the early start. I don't see a problem with that, just like I didn't see a problem with MK trying to get Polaris enemies to accept a white peace and put a quick end to the Polaris-\m/ conflict. When you have two allies battling each other (or allies of your close allies), it is only normal that you try to seek a peaceful resolution.

Note: we're seriously getting off topic.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Inferno]

well this is cristal clear to me.
NpO have this very well planed. with STA and others from the Blue sphere for destroy and desestabilize the dominium of Aqua and Orange.
they was and have resentemet becose Karma war an others ones.

Andd for SURE the destroy of "The Citadel"

i think they do it pretty well... (irony)
So... you can trust in NpO and hes plot companions ? not at all. Not anymore
You can trust in STA and hes plot companions ? no at all i never do. the show hes trully faces. They backstab who trust thems... (not me btw)

They are the evil? yes they are. This atrocitys need to be punished. And Aqua and Orange spheres need to be healed ? yes need to be.
And all the responsibles of this acts need to be passed by fusilade platoon asap.

GRUB included.

final side note: "you can blame an scorpion for stinging ? No, becose is in hes nature"...

Edited February 9, 2010 by Inferno

[arentak]

[quote name='Inferno' date='08 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265693117' post='2169961']
well this is cristal clear to me......
final side note: "you can blame an scorpion for stinging ? No, becose is in hes nature"...
[/quote]


Redacted in compliance with Vakadonian National Security Protocols.

Edited February 9, 2010 by arentak

[Inferno]

you are calling this a theory but facts make this a reality...

the are no better truth than one supported by reallity.

[Blue Lightning]

[quote name='Yevgeni Luchenkov' date='09 February 2010 - 05:07 AM' timestamp='1265692051' post='2169879']
Just a quick point, Krack, to note two things:
1)TOP was engaged against five alliances during the Karma war and some of the battles that took place were nuclear in nature. I'm not sure which ones exactly - I'd have to check again - but I do know that I fired nukes and was fired nukes at.
[/quote]
For reference, we engaged BAPS, Invicta, OMFG, UPN and Echelon. UPN and Invicta both peaced out within the first round of wars (and as we hit our targets 3-1, they weren't nuking any alliances at all). We handled most of Echelon's upper tier by ourselves (not gloating, just pointing out that they weren't at war with other alliances), but some very limited extra damage was done to the other alliances fighting Echelon. The OMFG and BAPS fronts both went fully nuclear from the start.

This whole criticism has been over-blown and addressed many times. It only seems to be brought up in desperation by people trying to find some !@#$ to throw at us. Yes, we regret the policy in general. No, it didn't have a significant impact on the war as a whole. Yes, we did do a hell of a lot of damage to our targets. No, we didn't single handedly win the Karma war...

Can we drop it now and stop bringing it up in completely unrelated topics?

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Blue Lightning' date='08 February 2010 - 11:39 PM' timestamp='1265693962' post='2170005']
For reference, we engaged BAPS, Invicta, OMFG, UPN and Echelon. UPN and Invicta both peaced out within the first round of wars (and as we hit our targets 3-1, they weren't nuking any alliances at all). We handled most of Echelon's upper tier by ourselves (not gloating, just pointing out that they weren't at war with other alliances), but some very limited extra damage was done to the other alliances fighting Echelon. [b]The OMFG and BAPS fronts both went fully nuclear from the start.[/b]

This whole criticism has been over-blown and addressed many times. It only seems to be brought up in desperation by people trying to find some !@#$ to throw at us. Yes, we regret the policy in general. No, it didn't have a significant impact on the war as a whole. Yes, we did do a hell of a lot of damage to our targets. No, we didn't single handedly win the Karma war...

Can we drop it now and stop bringing it up in completely unrelated topics?
[/quote]
The bolded statement is incorrect. We were told not to nuke BAPS, and I assume OMFG although it wasn't a target of mine. The only reason we went nuclear on them at all is they nuked us first. So if TOP had it's way, they wouldn't have gone nuclear on [b]anyone[/b].

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='09 February 2010 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1265697552' post='2170176']
The bolded statement is incorrect. We were told not to nuke BAPS, and I assume OMFG although it wasn't a target of mine. The only reason we went nuclear on them at all is they nuked us first. So if TOP had it's way, they wouldn't have gone nuclear on [b]anyone[/b].
[/quote]
This just isn't true. We went full nukes on both of them.

[Atanatar]

[quote name='Inferno' date='08 February 2010 - 11:25 PM' timestamp='1265693117' post='2169961']
well this is cristal clear to me.
NpO have this very well planed. with STA and others from the Blue sphere for destroy and desestabilize the dominium of Aqua and Orange.
they was and have resentemet becose Karma war an others ones.

Andd for SURE the destroy of "The Citadel"

i think they do it pretty well... (irony)
So... you can trust in NpO and hes plot companions ? not at all. Not anymore
You can trust in STA and hes plot companions ? no at all i never do. the show hes trully faces. They backstab who trust thems... (not me btw)

They are the evil? yes they are. This atrocitys need to be punished. And Aqua and Orange spheres need to be healed ? yes need to be.
And all the responsibles of this acts need to be passed by fusilade platoon asap.

GRUB included.

final side note: "you can blame an scorpion for stinging ? No, becose is in hes nature"...
[/quote]

I have no clue exactly what you just babbled about, but from what I can gather, it's a conspiracy theory that centers around blue taking down orange and aqua.

A worthy effort, and I must commend you on sharing a rather fresh and exciting tin foil plot, I'm afraid this set of drama were experiencing has it's roots in the mundane and petty, not the clear planning and organization needed to pull off such an outrageous plan.

[Atanatar]

[quote name='Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz' date='09 February 2010 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1265697934' post='2170188']
This just isn't true. We went full nukes on both of them.
[/quote]
Unfortunatly, I do not believe that is what he's trying to convey, as the fact as to whether TOP exchanged nukes is beyond question.

What is up for debate how ever is wether TOP would have gone nuclear if BAPS and OMFG had restrained them selves. I believe this to be the case my self, and if true does put TOP in the precarious situation of having seemingly worked to avoid a nuclear exchange upon their alliance, while the allies of TOP willingly embraced the fires of that war with little incident.

[pasquali]

I know I sure as hell ate a lot of IRON nukes fighting with FCC during Karma. And gave back more than I took. We didn't pull any punches.

For all those crying about the ones who attempted to get IRON white peace, consider the fact that if Citadel, specifically Gramlins and FCC hadn't taken on IRON (at the expense of alienating Citadel allies and breaking the Lux), the entire outcome of the Karma war would likely have been much, much different. IRON was a beast and could have easily handled the other alliances it was up against. Which would have almost certainly meant a Hegemony win. Would you have preferred that?

I really don't understand the hatred that immediately surfaced in Vanguard, MK, and others. It made me honestly regret entering Karma, because instead of being grateful that we tipped the scales and gave Karma a solid victory, these idiots were threatening the very ones that had just fought and bled for them.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='Atanatar' date='08 February 2010 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1265698304' post='2170197']
Unfortunatly, I do not believe that is what he's trying to convey, as the fact as to whether TOP exchanged nukes is beyond question.

What is up for debate how ever is wether TOP would have gone nuclear if BAPS and OMFG had restrained them selves. I believe this to be the case my self, and if true does put TOP in the precarious situation of having seemingly worked to avoid a nuclear exchange upon their alliance, while the allies of TOP willingly embraced the fires of that war with little incident.
[/quote]

This has been argued over and over, yet I still don't see any point to it aside from the ability of TOP's enemies to say "They avoided shooting nukes." That's the only thing that comes out of these arguments, and it's such a basic and naive point that it really isn't worth saying over and over.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 12:02 AM' timestamp='1265698926' post='2170209']
I know I sure as hell ate a lot of IRON nukes fighting with FCC during Karma. And gave back more than I took. We didn't pull any punches.

For all those crying about the ones who attempted to get IRON white peace, consider the fact that if Citadel, specifically Gramlins and FCC hadn't taken on IRON (at the expense of alienating Citadel allies and breaking the Lux), the entire outcome of the Karma war would likely have been much, much different. IRON was a beast and could have easily handled the other alliances it was up against. Which would have almost certainly meant a Hegemony win. Would you have preferred that?

I really don't understand the hatred that immediately surfaced in Vanguard, MK, and others. It made me honestly regret entering Karma, because instead of being grateful that we tipped the scales and gave Karma a solid victory, these idiots were threatening the very ones that had just fought and bled for them.
[/quote]

This is basically how I viewed the whole affair from outside Citadel.

[pasquali]

If TOP didn't first-strike nuke, what of it? It had been (up until the Karma war, anyway), a matter of honor/dishonor to first strike nuke. OG, who fought OBR, got a very rude awakening when OBR began raining nukes on them, since they fully intended to keep the war conventional. I think this current war is the first major one in history where there is no stigma attached to first strike nuking.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 12:10 AM' timestamp='1265699442' post='2170218']
If TOP didn't first-strike nuke, what of it? It had been (up until the Karma war, anyway), a matter of honor/dishonor to first strike nuke. OG, who fought OBR, got a very rude awakening when OBR began raining nukes on them, since they fully intended to keep the war conventional. I think this current war is the first major one in history where there is no stigma attached to first strike nuking.
[/quote]

Karma was the first where there was no stigma, but not many realized it.

This, though, is definitely the first major war where nukes were sent by all sides without a second thought.

[Gurney Halleck]

I know for a fact that we ordered first strike nukes against OMFG.

[bigdaddychacha]

[quote name='Remaliat' date='07 February 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1265549901' post='2166755']
I will say this to the relationship of TOP and NpO. There was a rapid and changing relationship in the months before this war, in the end the only thing that truly prevented us from signing a military agreement was the fact that The Order of the Paradox maintained it's protection of the Sweet Oblivion, and the New Polar Order maintained it's alliances with the New Sith Order and the GOONS. Our relationship was on very good terms before this war, and the fact that the Mushroom Kingdom even requested that we join in against TOP put us in such a difficult position that no matter which path we chose we were going to be attacked mercilessly on these forums, and from both sides in this war.

Did we make the right decision? I don't think so, but it doesn't change the fact that we did have a MDoAP with both Greenland Republic and the Mushroom Kingdom and our close friends at STA had a military agreement with MK and Vanguard as well. [b]Had the declarations of war happened in a manner that respected the treaties that the New Polar Order possessed this whole war would be a completely different struggle.[/b]...[/quote]Had the New Polar Order started this whole fiasco with any forethought, concern, or regard for the compromising of their allies' known treaties...


Oh, I can't even fathom what would have happened in such an alternate universe at this point, but you get the idea.

[Nizzle]

[quote name='AAlumni' date='09 February 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1265699779' post='2170227']
I know for a fact that we ordered first strike nukes against OMFG.
[/quote]

There's no sense in arguing with most of them on here. They are already convinced you are evil and won't listen to a word you say. After all, they have Saint Buscemi spreading the truth of TOP. I mean, the guy can't be wrong, right?

[Atanatar]

Except I'm fairly certain that Krack, Arcturus Jefferson, and I are trying to have a conversation about TOPs roll and certain ex Gremlins leadership. No one else in Lux Aeterna.

But since you decided to bring up Lux Aeterna and her allies, let me help you undertand exactly why so many people, notably ex government and other vocal members, were so concerned over the whole ordeal: The Superfriends bloc is not a bloc founded on stat collecting or maintenance of peace. The Superfriends was forged from the fires of Farks Holy War as a treaty written in blood between three incredibly close friends. The Superfriends mantra is to always have anothers backs in their hour of need, support when they're against the wall and swinging against a alliance over twice their size. The Superfriends isn't a MDAP bloc. It's a Death Cult.

And so to have IRON, who hit a Superfriends signatory and then try to demand white peace, while ex grem gov came to Fark and tried to say that because grem deigned enter this war on the side of Farkistan, that we essentially owe them, and that we should forego reps on our own part, reps that would as most repair [I]a mere fraction[/I] damage caused by a alliance who hit one of our closest brothers. Know what I say to that? To hell with it! Now, I'm sorry Lux Aterna has been broken twice now in two major wars; how ever that has little bearing or significance to anyone outside that bloc, and you can not expect us to seriously consider "but...but...our bloc!" as sufficient reasoning to say we did not have valid concerns, And that this was seemingly supported by the actions of several members, some of them gov and some ex-gov, of TOP, IRON, and Gre gave valid pause and concern to a very large portion of your so called brothers in arms in Karma.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Atanatar

[pasquali]

So tell me, then, just how much reps would you have received when the Citadel alliances sat out the war and IRON destroyed you and yours? You might very well have not had an alliance left, or had a Viceroy, or been put under other crippling terms. Philosophically, Citadel did not agree with the destruction of alliances or draconian terms, and that is a major reason why the ones who fought did as they did. They were under no direct threat. They did it for you and yours, because they were just as tired of seeing abuses as anyone else was.

Whether you like it or not, you DID owe them and continue to owe them. Because without them, you'd still be under the jackboot.

[auto98]

[quote name='Zombie Glaucon' date='06 February 2010 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1265442848' post='2163969']
They sure do, then they don a facade of believing that some things are honorable and some thing are not and, surprise! What's honorable happens to be whatever's best for them, and if the same thing is done to the other guy, not dishonorable. It's magic.
[/quote]

So just to make sure that I am not misunderstanding - as far as NpO goes, lying in order to make people turn round so that they can be stabbed in the back more easily is fine? It's very nice of you to care so much about other alliances that you do not wish them to appear dishonourable, but as far as I am concerned flat out lying to someone is one of the more dishonourable acts. Whereas believing someones word and then being stabbed in the back does not appear to me to be very dishonourable. So before talking the nonsense that you spouted above, maybe a little examination closer to home might give you pause to think about exactly who has been dishonourable here.

[pasquali]

As for IRON demanding white peace, it was up to you whether or not to grant it. And Gramlins was completely within their rights to say "Well, if you think you're that badass, we'll just pull out and allow you to extract whatever reps you think you're entitled to on your own merit."

Gramlins took a hell of a pounding in that war that would otherwise have gone to you directly. Without Citadel strength, you asking for any reps at any point until IRON was completely defeated would be like a 6 year old shaking down a high-schooler for his lunch money.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Atanatar' date='09 February 2010 - 08:29 AM' timestamp='1265700595' post='2170247']
Except I'm fairly certain that Krack, Arcturus Jefferson, and I are trying to have a conversation about TOPs roll and certain ex Gremlins leadership. No one else in Lux Aeterna.

But since you decided to bring up Lux Aeterna and her allies, let me help you undertand exactly why so many people, notably ex government and other vocal members, were so concerned over the whole ordeal: The Superfriends bloc is not a bloc founded on stat collecting or maintenance of peace. The Superfriends was forged from the fires of Farks Holy War as a treaty written in blood between three incredibly close friends. The Superfriends mantra is to always have anothers backs in their hour of need, support when they're against the wall and swinging against a alliance over twice their size. The Superfriends isn't a MDAP bloc. It's a Death Cult.

And so to have IRON, who hit a Superfriends signatory and then try to demand white peace, while ex grem gov came to Fark and tried to say that because grem deigned enter this war on the side of Farkistan, that we essentially owe them, and that we should forego reps on our own part, reps that would as most repair [I]a mere fraction[/I] damage caused by a alliance who hit one of our closest brothers. Know what I say to that? To hell with it! Now, I'm sorry Lux Aterna has been broken twice now in two major wars; how ever that has little bearing or significance to anyone outside that bloc, and you can not expect us to seriously consider "but...but...our bloc!" as sufficient reasoning to say we did not have valid concerns, And that this was seemingly supported by the actions of several members, some of them gov and some ex-gov, of TOP, IRON, and Gre gave valid pause and concern to a very large portion of your so called brothers in arms in Karma.
[/quote]

If IRON had been a non affiliated, unknown alliance, we would probably not have given so much of a crap, but IRON was one of TOPs closest allies. We destroyed another Citadel ALLY for you. I think thats the point that makes it so hard to understand for everyone. You imply we were being bad allies because we were resistant to utterly cripple another ally?

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='AAlumni' date='09 February 2010 - 01:16 AM' timestamp='1265699779' post='2170227']
I know for a fact that we ordered first strike nukes against OMFG.
[/quote]
Since I wasn't engaged with OMFG this may have been the case. But I was ordered to NOT nuke BAPS until one of them had nuked us. I remember having the LoSS guy who was defending against BAPS coordinate a nuke launch so we could still get the benefits of low AC, etc since we couldn't launch that first day and a half until I got word BAPS were nuking us.

So I'm 100% sure I got a PM saying we wouldn't nuke BAPS unless one of them nuked us.