Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='09 February 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1265752931' post='2171245']
Why do we need to dig up every little piece of history again?
[/quote]
It's not like this war began in a vacuum.

[Krack]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='09 February 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1265752931' post='2171245']
Maybe it looked like it was from the outside, but Gremlins itself were never afraid of an actual attack. I mean c'mon... NPO attacking one of the centerpieces of the treaty web out of nowhere? Thats just not very strategically sound.[/quote]

I will say, as far as I know, that every single time the possibility was mentioned to Gramlins, they stated that they were certain that MHA and TOP would defend them and not turn on them. However, they were also adamant that nobody in SuperFriends take their slot in tC that was being offered and surprised to hear that it was being offered while they were still in the bloc and without their knowledge.

[quote]Why do we need to dig up every little piece of history again?[/quote]

Because it appears that nobody on the Citadel side of the Karma war (outside of former Gramlins gov - whom all seem to be somewhere else now) understands why it happened and what individual alliance concessions and pledges were made in the lead up. Every new person to the discussion says "Well, you guys were gonna get beaten, and we came in and saved you." Sorry, Gramlins and SuperFriends had an agreement much earlier (a no-questions asked agreement) and when it was made SuperFriends thought it was very likely that they were saving Gramlins against their own best interests. As I said, it's tiresome after six months of hearing how heroic the Citadel was, particularly when TOP and Chill were handing out "our way or the highway" ultimatums on the eve of war (once it became apparent that the target wasn't someone in the Citadel).

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1265752943' post='2171246']
The funny thing is, I just spent the better part of several posts explaining to you how Karma formed (and why you and your allies are in the situation you are) and your first response is that it's paranoid. Paranoid or not, it's the thinking that led to you being on the wrong end of the War web.
[/quote]
I don't know, it looks pretty paranoid to me. While on some level you do need to be paranoid, the idea that NPO would attack Gremlins when it was still treatied to a number of influential alliances is pretty out there.

I'm not sure if you meant that last sentence the way you wrote it, since what I am getting from it is that the thinking that led me down the wrong end of the web (which doesn't make sense by the way), is in fact the thinking pre-Karma used when dealing with NPO.

[Krack]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='09 February 2010 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1265753996' post='2171277']
I'm not sure if you meant that last sentence the way you wrote it, since what I am getting from it is that the thinking that led me down the wrong end of the web (which doesn't make sense by the way), is in fact the thinking pre-Karma used when dealing with NPO.
[/quote]

What I meant by my last sentence is ... whether it was paranoid thinking or not ... it was still the line of thinking being used by the SuperFriends alliances (amongst others) at the time that caused them to make every effort to put together the defensive coalition (that became Karma) starting six months prior to the first shot being fired. And because that large defensive coalition was formed (and held), Zenith found itself on the losing side.

[Delta1212]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='09 February 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1265753996' post='2171277']
I don't know, it looks pretty paranoid to me. While on some level you do need to be paranoid, the idea that NPO would attack Gremlins when it was still treatied to a number of influential alliances is pretty out there.

I'm not sure if you meant that last sentence the way you wrote it, since what I am getting from it is that the thinking that led me down the wrong end of the web (which doesn't make sense by the way), is in fact the thinking pre-Karma used when dealing with NPO.
[/quote]
There will never be a WUT Civil War, stop being paranoid.
The Orders will never turn on each other, stop being paranoid.

You can only do this dance so many times before you notice that the line in front of you is getting uncomfortably short.

[Bob Janova]

We were very appreciative of SF's promise to stick by us if we got attacked, though we weren't effusive about it because we had no real worries about being attacked. (And in fact, we weren't.) On the other hand, we [i]did[/i] stick by SF when they were attacked, even though it put us up against a Citadel ally, and we got (from some quarters at least – not from Fark) resentment for it.

[Sulmar]

[quote name='Delta1212' date='09 February 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1265754539' post='2171293']
There will never be a WUT Civil War, stop being paranoid.
The Orders will never turn on each other, stop being paranoid.

You can only do this dance so many times before you notice that the line in front of you is getting uncomfortably short.
[/quote]
Like I said, you do need to be a little bit paranoid. However, while I will not pretend to know what was going on in the minds of SF at the time, it seems to me there were a number of more likely situations that would have occurred other than Gremlins being attacked.

Is it not your side now that is calling out TOP and IRON for being paranoid? I'd turn your comment towards them as well.

[quote]

What I meant by my last sentence is ... whether it was paranoid thinking or not ... it was still the line of thinking being used by the SuperFriends alliances (amongst others) at the time that caused them to make every effort to put together the defensive coalition (that became Karma) starting six months prior to the first shot being fired. And because that large defensive coalition was formed (and held), Zenith found itself on the losing side.[/quote]
Thats what I thought you meant, but it just seemed pretty ambiguous the way you said it before.

Also, I thought Karma was just a spur of the moment coalition?

[Krack]

[quote name='Sulmar' date='09 February 2010 - 04:41 PM' timestamp='1265755260' post='2171316']
Is it not your side now that is calling out TOP and IRON for being paranoid? I'd turn your comment towards them as well.
[/quote]

The difference is ... Karma was doing everything in its power and realm of influence to prevent a war (before everyone dropped their treaties with NPO, everyone thought we were going to lose) ... while TOP and IRON attacked aggressively. Do people like TOP and IRON? No not really. As has been pointed out endlessly in this thread, their behavior during the Karma War earned them zero friends and made many antagonistic towards them. However, that's not evidence that people were conspiring against them or planned to aggressively do them harm.

Paranoid? Eh, you can call it whatever you want. But make no mistake, it's their own aggressive actions that have put them in their current state of affairs.

[Midkn1ght]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='09 February 2010 - 04:55 AM' timestamp='1265709303' post='2170370']
Since I wasn't engaged with OMFG this may have been the case. But I was ordered to NOT nuke BAPS until one of them had nuked us. I remember having the LoSS guy who was defending against BAPS coordinate a nuke launch so we could still get the benefits of low AC, etc since we couldn't launch that first day and a half until I got word BAPS were nuking us.

[/quote]
/waves to Steve, glad to see you did indeed find a new home after all.

You'd have to ask Big Z the names of the TOP folks who jumped on the Echelon guys who were on myself, him, and Enigma, but when I told them to nuke due to having tech levels so much higher then ours, we were flat out told they had a no first nuke policy in Echelon's case anyhow. I give them credit, they did a great deal of damage following the nukes we lobbed, while sitting back and letting our guys suck up nuke after nuke, but fighting like that using meatshields while putting forth hardly any effort and reaping all the rewards, is just typical NPO crony crap.

Everyone on that front was getting hit fairly hard, but to say that TOP saved the day with Echelon, by bandwaggoning onto our front, only declaring 3v1 on a handful of Echelon's top tier, and then letting US eat the nukes is pure crap. Their attitude during the Echelon peace process where they seemed offended at anything other then white peace, and then the sudden withdrawl saying screw you to everyone on that front is something I didn't think I'd see surpassed until this war, with their strike at CnG.

*shrug* ah well, back to the net exile I'd had to deal with lately. Enjoy the wars folks /jealous

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='Midkn1ght' date='09 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1265756848' post='2171365']
/waves to Steve, glad to see you did indeed find a new home after all.

You'd have to ask Big Z the names of the TOP folks who jumped on the Echelon guys who were on myself, him, and Enigma, but when I told them to nuke due to having tech levels so much higher then ours, we were flat out told they had a no first nuke policy in Echelon's case anyhow. I give them credit, they did a great deal of damage following the nukes we lobbed, while sitting back and letting our guys suck up nuke after nuke, but fighting like that using meatshields while putting forth hardly any effort and reaping all the rewards, is just typical NPO crony crap.

Everyone on that front was getting hit fairly hard, but to say that TOP saved the day with Echelon, by bandwaggoning onto our front, only declaring 3v1 on a handful of Echelon's top tier, and then letting US eat the nukes is pure crap. Their attitude during the Echelon peace process where they seemed offended at anything other then white peace, and then the sudden withdrawl saying screw you to everyone on that front is something I didn't think I'd see surpassed until this war, with their strike at CnG.

*shrug* ah well, back to the net exile I'd had to deal with lately. Enjoy the wars folks /jealous
[/quote]
You have no idea how pissed off I was at Crymson and TOP government for that whole fiasco. To me, Karma was the beginning of TOP's downfall from something respectable. The sad thing is TOP still believes it was saving the day for you guys and the other alliances we helped out that were non-nuclear.

[sacramento]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' date='09 February 2010 - 10:27 PM' timestamp='1265783278' post='2172178']
You have no idea how pissed off I was at Crymson and TOP government for that whole fiasco. To me, Karma was the beginning of TOP's downfall from something respectable. The sad thing is TOP still believes it was saving the day for you guys and the other alliances we helped out that were non-nuclear.
[/quote]

Steve did we mention that after you quit in a fit, you stole classify information and try to use it against us? You are worse than a spy (a spy at least works for an alliance). You are just plain worthless scum.

Edited February 10, 2010 by sacramento

[pasquali]

Two questions:

1) Was TOP obligated to enter that war at all?

2) If the answer is "no", or even "Yes, but it was questionable because they had other conflicting treaties", then ANYTHING other than "Thanks for the help!" is the height of ingratitude. Any time someone bleeds for you, especially when they are not obligated to, turning around and trashing the way they did it is absolutely pathetic.

[Steve Buscemi]

[quote name='sacramento' date='10 February 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1265784129' post='2172207']
Steve did we mention that after you quit in a fit, you stole classify information and try to use it against us? You are worse than a spy (a spy at least works for an alliance). You are just plain worthless scum.
[/quote]
What does this have to do with what we are talking about? I'm not even going to respond to your entire garbage post that doesn't even remotely reflect reality. TOP bawing really is getting annoying. Just admit you are getting destroyed for your mistakes.

Edit: At least I'm not a snake in the grass, right?

Edited February 10, 2010 by Steve Buscemi

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='sacramento' date='10 February 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1265784129' post='2172207']
Steve did we mention that after you quit in a fit, you stole classify information and try to use it against us? You are worse than a spy (a spy at least works for an alliance). You are just plain worthless scum.
[/quote]

Common Steve, don't hog all that classified information, give us some of it aswell. Oh he meant the things that were common knowledge to almost any one on planet Bob? Too bad, I was hoping for something really classified.

[Poyplemonkeys]

[quote name='sacramento' date='10 February 2010 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1265784129' post='2172207']
Steve did we mention that after you quit in a fit, you stole classify information and try to use it against us? You are worse than a spy (a spy at least works for an alliance). You are just plain worthless scum.
[/quote]

haha, Jesus, usually people try and make their ad hom's slightly subtle at least Pretty sure TOP tried to make the BAPS front non-nuclear too. I know I was in discussions with the TOP nation on my target about whether I should nuke or not because he wasn't sure whether he was allowed to until shortly before update.

[NoFish]

[quote name='pasquali' date='10 February 2010 - 03:32 AM' timestamp='1265790778' post='2172337']
Two questions:

1) Was TOP obligated to enter that war at all?

2) If the answer is "no", or even "Yes, but it was questionable because they had other conflicting treaties", then ANYTHING other than "Thanks for the help!" is the height of ingratitude. Any time someone bleeds for you, especially when they are not obligated to, turning around and trashing the way they did it is absolutely pathetic.
[/quote]
You see, that would be the case if TOP wasn't throwing their weight around with surrender terms and the like, insisting that the rest of us were only allowed to give white peace, demanding that we peace out at a certain time, and threatening us when we didn't.

[Inferno]

[quote name='Atanatar' date='09 February 2010 - 03:47 AM' timestamp='1265698047' post='2170192']
I have no clue exactly what you just babbled about, but from what I can gather, it's a conspiracy theory that centers around blue taking down orange and aqua.

A worthy effort, and I must commend you on sharing a rather fresh and exciting tin foil plot, I'm afraid this set of drama were experiencing has it's roots in the mundane and petty, not the clear planning and organization needed to pull off such an outrageous plan.
[/quote]


I cheked your nation, have 47 days old.
So you are NOBODY or, some one who have a nation and re roll, or who knows... (but i have an idea)
What i am sure. You are not \m/ dude, or some who i can recognize.
So you are nothing. beside critizice my grammar and vocabulary, trying to diminish my speech, only show your kind of bad manner and beheivor (that remember me some one)

This conspiracy theory is well funded. If you appear in IRC #paradox channel i can explaing you, but since you are nobody i will keep my surces and information for the people who worth it.

Paradox Voult o/

[Some-Guy]

[quote name='NoFish' date='10 February 2010 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1265827044' post='2172879']
You see, that would be the case if TOP wasn't throwing their weight around with surrender terms and the like, insisting that the rest of us were only allowed to give white peace, demanding that we peace out at a certain time, and threatening us when we didn't.
[/quote]

You're having a bit of a re-write of history there my old chap.

Have lots of fun.

[flak attack]

[quote name='Inferno' date='10 February 2010 - 02:06 PM' timestamp='1265828795' post='2172927']
I cheked your nation, have 47 days old.
So you are NOBODY or, some one who have a nation and re roll, or who knows... (but i have an idea)
What i am sure. You are not \m/ dude, or some who i can recognize.
So you are nothing. beside critizice my grammar and vocabulary, trying to diminish my speech, only show your kind of bad manner and beheivor (that remember me some one)

This conspiracy theory is well funded. If you appear in IRC #paradox channel i can explaing you, but since you are nobody i will keep my surces and information for the people who worth it.

Paradox Voult o/
[/quote]
Atanatar
Astroglide
Group:Members
Posts:216
[b]Joined:15-March 08[/b]
Nation Name:Red Republic
Alliance Name:\m/


I believe that answer to your question was right in front of you.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='flak attack' date='11 February 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1265830512' post='2172982']
Atanatar
Astroglide
Group:Members
Posts:216
[b]Joined:15-March 08[/b]
Nation Name:Red Republic
Alliance Name:\m/
[/quote]

Nice stat collection there flak attack.

As regards the topic under discussion here, I do not really blame Polaris for coming to the defense of their direct treaty partners. Although i have to admit it is a bit, seeing them on both sides of the conflict. Or on different sides in two different conflicts, or on the same side in three? or..

I still stand by my name suggestion for the war "We are all Stupid War"

[Atanatar]

Indeed. I had served in various government positions in various alliances. But so far as this conversation is concerned, at the time of the Karma war I was a member of Fark, and Fark happened to be intimately involved in the TOP/IRON reps dispute that originated in the Karma war. Not to mention I'm also gov of \m/, and happen to have been so since the second reformation, and so I'm not totally ignorant of some of the behind the scenes machinations of this war. And quite simply, a sphere wide conspiracy is one of the most laughable things I have heard. Except Pigs and Water.


In short, No u.


Also: you offer to explain this all to me, and then turn around in the same sentence and say that you won't because I am a nobody? Have you been taking notes from Grub on how to be bipolar? Or is it just the close proximity to Polar nations rubbing off?

Edited February 10, 2010 by Atanatar