Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Roadie]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='09 February 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1265731442' post='2170647']
Actually TOP government were under the impression that they had the right to make all of Karma's decisions for them, telling other alliance members to "know their place" and that they were the "big kids in the sandbox".

Some of us were actually there and dealt with it and our dislike of TOP has nothing to do with their "independent thinking"
[/quote]

So you're saying TOP didn't follow Karma in tow. And if they had been good little soldiers following the program?

[King Srqt]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 11:00 AM' timestamp='1265731208' post='2170641']
I honestly don't see a problem with that. As mentioned SEVERAL times, TOP was allied to IRON and didn't want to see them destroyed. Gramlins was willing to take them on for the greater good, but drew the line at demanding or supporting reps. Instead of thanking Gramlins for saving everyone else's rear end, people threw a hissy fit because Gramlins wouldn't support their demands for reps.

AGAIN - if those alliances were big and bad enough to demand reps on their own merit, fine. THEY WEREN'T. What makes them think they had any right to expect Gramlins to act as an enforcer so they can get reps?
[/quote]
They didn't expect anyone to be their enforcer, where the real issue came was the lack of being informed. do you really think it would have been too much to expect Gre to tell their war time (and treaty) allies of their plans of white peace before the wars were declared instead of after?

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 11:02 AM' timestamp='1265731341' post='2170645']
OOC: Heheh - it's ok, Link.

- Barch
[/quote]
OOC: I thought it was weird that you were in TOP too I am getting less thorough in my old age

[Krack]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1265727899' post='2170561']
More and more certain we shoulda sat our backsides out of the war and let them take their lumps. We'd all be under the jackboot as before, but it would probably better than fighting for people who then hate and scheme against you for a year after you bled for them.
[/quote]

Excuse me, what alliance were you in at that time?

[King Srqt]

[quote name='Roadie' date='09 February 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1265731626' post='2170652']
So you're saying TOP didn't follow Karma in tow. And if they had been good little soldiers following the program?
[/quote]
No I am saying TOP thought they could run the show without any input from anyone else and that if they had at least listened to the opinions of others without being condescending jerks there wouldn't have been such disdain for the alliance. But nice attempt to twist what I said.

[pasquali]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1265731820' post='2170658']
Excuse me, what alliance were you in at that time?
[/quote]


I was in FCC. I went there about a month and a half prior to the outbreak of the war, because I could smell it shaping up. I knew OG was going to fall along Hegemony lines, I didn't like NPO or the Hegemony way of doing things, and I'd be damned if I was going to fight for them against a lot of alliances that I did like. I liked Vanguard, MK, and many others until their insane ingratitude and hatred became evident as Karma was winding down.

But yeah, I was in FCC, I fought against IRON. Basically we were a miniature version of Gramlins in that war, we fought and moved along with them.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='09 February 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1265730848' post='2170625']
If you truly believe that you had nothing to gain by taking out the NPO then you are very ignorant to the backroom political environment of the time, I don't fault you for that because most people were since things were not very transparent but TOP was far from a safe position if the Karma war ended differently.
It's funny that an alliance that was telling my allies and I what IRON's peace terms were before anyone of them had any kind of meeting could have been excluded from the original talks. The original talks actually took place before the war ever began and no one outside of Gre/TOP/IRON was consulted about them
[/quote]

Are you saying there were peace talks only including IRON, Gre and TOP during the war?

If so, it's simply not true. Of course Gre and TOP were talking to each other since they were allies, but there was not any official agreement. We knew TOP would have wanted IRON to get out with a white peace, thats why we said that Gremlins individually will not demand any reparations. Which we didnt.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='09 February 2010 - 11:22 AM' timestamp='1265732564' post='2170679']
Are you saying there were peace talks only including IRON, Gre and TOP during the war?

If so, it's simply not true. Of course Gre and TOP were talking to each other since they were allies, but there was not any official agreement. We knew TOP would have wanted IRON to get out with a white peace, thats why we said that Gremlins individually will not demand any reparations. Which we didnt.
[/quote]
Chill, informed many on the SF front that it had already been decided that IRON would be getting white peace after 1 week of war, this was backed by TOP and promised to IRON. This was told to us before any other peace talks had taken place.

I do not know if Chill was talking out of his $@! or not but he was the Karma rep for Gre and Gre gov so we had no reason to doubt him.

[Krack]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1265732339' post='2170672']
I was in FCC. I went there about a month and a half prior to the outbreak of the war, because I could smell it shaping up. I knew OG was going to fall along Hegemony lines, [b]I didn't like NPO or the Hegemony way of doing things, and I'd be damned if I was going to fight for them against a lot of alliances that I did like.[/b] I liked Vanguard, MK, and many others until their insane ingratitude and hatred became evident as Karma was winding down.

But yeah, I was in FCC, I fought against IRON. Basically we were a miniature version of Gramlins in that war, we fought and moved along with them.
[/quote]

Well, then you fought in the Karma War for the same reason everyone else did (except for maybe TOP). It's not like everyone else in Karma was best buddies at the time of the war (my understanding is that relationships have improved tremendously since then) - the only thing everyone could agree on, in the lead up to the war, was no matter how much dislike and distrust there was within the coalition:

(1) If everyone didn't fight in defense of everyone else, we'd lose, and
(2) Nobody trusted, or liked the behavior of, most of tC and all of One Vision

As an aside, that's why the "Karma is just the same as the Hegemony" mantra was such stupid propaganda from the losing Hegemony side; the only thing people in Karma could agree on was that no matter how much you may dislike or distrust some in Karma, everyone knew how unlikable and untrustworthy the Hegemony was.

[pasquali]

It should have been obvious that he could only speak for his alliance. If so, who was anyone else to say jack about it? The proper response would have been: "Hey - thanks, guys. You really took a lot of heat off of us. We appreciate it!"

Instead, it was "Hey! Where are you going? We want reps, and we need you to still fight so that we can get them! Now we hate you!"

If Chill had even pretended that he could speak for all the other alliances, he would have been laughed out of the country. I would have laughed him out myself. Every other alliance involved had the option of continuing to press for reps without Gramlins. Except whoops, they weren't tough enough. Oh well.

Edited February 9, 2010 by pasquali

[pasquali]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 11:30 AM' timestamp='1265733030' post='2170686']
Well, then you fought in the Karma War for the same reason everyone else did (except for maybe TOP). It's not like everyone else in Karma was best buddies at the time of the war (my understanding is that relationships have improved tremendously since then) - the only thing everyone could agree on, in the lead up to the war, was no matter how much dislike and distrust there was within the coalition:

(1) If everyone didn't fight in defense of everyone else, we'd lose, and
(2) Nobody trusted, or liked the behavior of, most of tC and all of One Vision

As an aside, that's why the "Karma is just the same as the Hegemony" mantra was such stupid propaganda from the losing Hegemony side; the only thing people in Karma could agree on was that no matter how much you may dislike or distrust some in Karma, everyone knew how unlikable and untrustworthy the Hegemony was.
[/quote]


Yup - I agree with pretty much everything you said. I happen to think that without Gramlins, (and FCC - and even TOP) doing what they did, at great cost to themselves both politically and physically, Karma would have lost. I also think that they got a pretty lousy thanks for what they did.

[Krack]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='09 February 2010 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1265732881' post='2170684']
Chill, informed many on the SF front that it had already been decided that IRON would be getting white peace after 1 week of war, this was backed by TOP and promised to IRON. This was told to us before any other peace talks had taken place.

I do not know if Chill was talking out of his $@! or not but he was the Karma rep for Gre and Gre gov so we had no reason to doubt him.
[/quote]

I don't know why this has to be continuously pointed out. Chill (who was, I think, MoFAs at the time - it's not like he was some nobody) came to Ragnarok and told them, (paraphrase) "Here's the peace agreement Gramlins and TOP just made with IRON. If you don't like it, then the Citadel is sitting it out and you guys are going to get rolled." It's not like there was a debate over whether or not this happened - there are logs. I linked to them in one of my posts above. It was the start of the war and Chill (who I'm sorry, but he spoke for Gramlins at the time - it's not my fault he was in your leadership) and TOP were issuing ultimatums and acting like big shots who were more worried about themselves than being part of a team.

[King Srqt]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 11:32 AM' timestamp='1265733167' post='2170688']
It should have been obvious that he could only speak for his alliance. If so, who was anyone else to say jack about it? The proper response would have been: "Hey - thanks, guys. You really took a lot of heat off of us. We appreciate it!"

Instead, it was "Hey! Where are you going? We want reps, and we need you to still fight so that we can get them! Now we hate you!"

If Chill had even pretended that he could speak for all the other alliances, he would have been laughed out of the country. I would have laughed him out myself. Every other alliance involved had the option of continuing to press for reps without Gramlins. Except whoops, they weren't tough enough. Oh well.
[/quote]
I guess I just feel that you should inform your war time allies (or at the very least your treaty partners) who are fighting alongside you of your intent for the war.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

As a Fark top tier nation at the time (and with no government position) I think we could've taken IRON for 5 days. As a whole they were a very mixed bag, with a few very prepared, some adequately prepared, and some completely unprepared. By the time IRON was knuckling under, I would've been fine with Gramlins leaving the front to get you out of negotiations you don't have the stomach for. Alternatively, if you felt so bloody sorry for one of the NPO's chief enforcers, we could've given them easy terms - after they had all come out of peacemode and fought for a month or two more. But I wasn't in gov.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[HellAngel]

[quote name='KingSrqt' date='09 February 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1265732881' post='2170684']
Chill, informed many on the SF front that it had already been decided that IRON would be getting white peace after 1 week of war, this was backed by TOP and promised to IRON. This was told to us before any other peace talks had taken place.

I do not know if Chill was talking out of his $@! or not but he was the Karma rep for Gre and Gre gov so we had no reason to doubt him.
[/quote]

Thats interesting. Because i thought Chill resigned all his representational positions after the disaster of the DoW. Are you sure you are not confusing the two incidents?

[pasquali]

What of it? I really don't see why that peace agreement is a problem. They were willing to help, but not willing to act as an enforcer for others to get reps. The others had the option to take the help or leave it.

The Citadel was rightly a higher priority than helping Karma win. Gramlins wanted Karma to win, but they did not want to alienate their Citadel allies any more than necessary. If they could all come to some agreement to make that happen, more power to them. Just because others wanted to use Gramlin muscle to get reps for themselves does not mean Gramlins had an obligation to let themselves be used in that fashion.

Gramlin intent should have been fairly obvious. They did not particularly view IRON as enemies, as evidenced by the treaty they held with IRON until the moment they declared. Not only that, they were close friends of TOP who were close friends of IRON, and by crushing IRON they would be spitting on their friendship with TOP. However, they had no love for the Hegemony and thought the world would be a better place without it. Again, the proper response would have been to thank them for their quite possibly tide-turning assistance and move on.

edit: KingSrqt, it sounds like your beef is that their allies weren't informed. According to others, though, they were informed at the beginning of the war, and it was kind of a "take it or leave it" thing. I see nothing wrong with saying you'll help someone with something, but there are limits. You weren't too proud to accept that help because it would have been EXTREMELY painful if you didn't, but then you want to badmouth them for placing conditions on it. Something ain't right with that.

Edited February 9, 2010 by pasquali

[Krack]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 10:35 AM' timestamp='1265733358' post='2170696']
Yup - I agree with pretty much everything you said. I happen to think that without Gramlins, (and FCC - and even TOP) doing what they did, at great cost to themselves both politically and physically, Karma would have lost. [b]I also think that they got a pretty lousy thanks for what they did.[/b]
[/quote]

When was the last time you thanked someone in GOD for pledging full support to Gramlins (and agreeing to defend them unconditionally, even though they hated them) when they were leaving tC and there was an excellent chance they'd get rolled if they were isolated?

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[King Srqt]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='09 February 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1265733882' post='2170706']
Thats interesting. Because i thought Chill resigned all his representational positions after the disaster of the DoW. Are you sure you are not confusing the two incidents?
[/quote]
IIRC this is the incident that actually caused him to resign his posts, I will dig up logs when I can access them (OOC when I get home) later. My memory is usually spot on with these things though.

[pasquali]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1265734077' post='2170712']
When was the last time you thanked someone in GOD for pledging full support to Gramlins (and agreeing to defend them unconditionally, even though they hated them) when they were leaving tC and there was an excellent chance they'd get rolled if they were isolated?
[/quote]

That is no doubt thanks worthy. It's not quite along the same magnitude as providing the make-or-break power to finally rid the world of an institution that many thought unbeatable and then getting slapped in the face repeatedly by those you just saved from defeat and crushing terms, though.

[Sephiroth]

[quote name='Krack' date='09 February 2010 - 11:47 AM' timestamp='1265734077' post='2170712']
When was the last time you thanked someone in GOD for pledging full support to Gramlins (and agreeing to defend them unconditionally, even though they hated them) when they were leaving tC and there was an excellent chance they'd get rolled if they were isolated?
[/quote]
Gremlins had already made it clear before the war they wouldn't let SF get rolled and would defend them if attacked, I also had a high opinion of SF and was King of FCC, so I agreed with them. If us declaring on IRON despite it being a violation of Lux Aeterna wasn't thankful to help SF, I don't know what is. I didn't know of GOD making such a pledge, but that didn't change that I wanted to help SF along with Gremlins when entering.

That TOP would try doing what they can to get peace for treaty partner doesn't surprise me. Why wouldn't they?

Edit: IRON only entered that war to honor a treaty, despite it being stacked against them.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Methrage

[Krack]

[quote name='pasquali' date='09 February 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1265735322' post='2170746']
That is no doubt thanks worthy. It's not quite along the same magnitude as providing the make-or-break power to finally rid the world of an institution that many thought unbeatable and then getting slapped in the face repeatedly by those you just saved from defeat and crushing terms, though.
[/quote]

When was the last time GOD said publicly "The Gramlins owe us for keeping you from getting rolled in December 2008." I don't believe I've ever seen them say it publicly. Contrast that with the former Gramlins leadership in this thread who have repeated the "Everybody owes us" mantra every ten posts or so since page 15.

Frankly, as far as I'm concerned, nobody owes anybody anything. The SuperFriends prevented Gramlins from getting rolled because it was in their best interests that the Gramlins not get destroyed. Gramlins participated in the Karma War because it was in the Gramlins best interests that the Karma side win. The difference is, you don't see some alliances' leadership claiming they are owed anything (even if it's just gratitude); while some of the former Citadel alliances' leadership repeat it constantly. It's tired.

Could the Gramlins have backed out of the Karma War when it started? Sure. But they would have broken their word that they gave in Nov 2008 when FARK promised to stick with the Gramlins despite pleas from other SuperFriends alliances to drop their treaty. The SuperFriends stuck by Gramlins when it was everything but politically expedient - they did this because the Gramlins promised to do the same if any of the other SFs alliances or MK, VE, Vanguard were attacked. Then flash forward 6 months and on the eve of war the Gramlins' MoFA was telling the SuperFriends leadership, (paraphrase) "You will do everything the way we want it, or we're bailing out and you're on your own."

Do I like Gramlins? Yes - then and now. But when you say I (or FARK, or anybody else in Karma) owes them anything because they helped out from the goodness of their hearts, you can stick it. There was a deal in place and it was explicit - "Are you in or are you out?". The Gramlins said they were "in". They could have backed out of Karma, but they would have broken their word. FARK never threatened to break its word (and as far as I know, nobody else involved in Karma ever did either).

Now if you were in another Citadel alliance at the time and got caught up in all this without knowledge of the discussions that were going on (or had taken place), I'm sorry, but that's poor communication between the Citadel alliances and not the fault of the other Karma alliances. At every turn, for at least six months before the Karma War, the other Karma alliances encouraged improved relations with the other Citadel alliances (and even tried to form the Bastion bloc to tie SuperFriends and the Citadel together - it was felt this would discourage any attempted aggression by One Vision), but my understanding is TOP nixed it. The SuperFriends (and Sparta) were trying to be friendly and open and TOP more or less shrugged its shoulders and said "we don't need new friends". Again, that's not my problem.

As I said earlier, it was a long time ago and the good guys won. If you regret that, so be it.

[Banned]

[quote name='Left_Behind' date='06 February 2010 - 06:22 AM' timestamp='1265437359' post='2163535']
TOP and IRON attacked on CnG was for the benefit of NpO's War and it was a preemptive strike so I don't get how u can think it was almost like being rogued.
[/quote]

I love this "pre-emptive strike" excuse. Here's the facts.

- C&G was not involved in the NpO - \m/ war, they had issued no declarations of war whatsoever.
- Had the We Dropped The Soap Coalition not declared aggressively on CnG, the entirety of that war would be over.
- Given the speed with which the NpO v. \m/ front cleared up, CnG would have never been involved.

So what really happened here, is that TOP and IRON suicided themselves and their friends and made an opportunistic move with the fact that Polaris seemed to be busy with other things to declare an aggressive and unprovoked war against C&G. This war is now biting them in the (bleep) and they want white peace and sit around and claim that they had some moral high ground in all of this, when the fact is, that CnG got mass rogued and if CnG aren't letting you off the hook so easily, good for them.

[pasquali]

Rogued? Not exactly. It's pretty dim to believe that this hasn't been building since before the Karma war even ended. Back then, members were breathing threat and doom against TOP and IRON specifically. Did IRON and TOP have reason to attack C&G? Perhaps, the events of the past year or so were pretty thick with menace against both of them. However, words do not equal actions, and up till now it had just been words. They stated the reason for throwing the first punch pretty plainly in the DoW, and it seemed honest enough to me.

Which doesn't change the fact that it's fairly obvious it was a boneheaded move and that they both got played and played themselves into a horrible situation. Now that C&G has them on the hook (where it had been trying to get them for a long time), it's pretty naieve to think they'll let them off easily. Or perhaps at all.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Methrage' date='09 February 2010 - 12:10 PM' timestamp='1265735422' post='2170751']
That TOP would try doing what they can to get peace for treaty partner doesn't surprise me. Why wouldn't they?[/quote]
And why wouldn't others resent that course of action, given who that treaty partner was and how they conducted themselves in that war?
[quote]
Edit: IRON only entered that war to honor a treaty, despite it being stacked against them.
[/quote]
They only honored that treaty because people pointed out that they had served their Pacifican masters in the good times of easy beatdowns and it would look a little tacky if they didn't put up at least a show of loyalty before trading up to a new master. A master who promptly went to bat for them at peace negotiations. IRON: bought and sold since VietFAN.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Arcturus Jefferson

[Heft]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='08 February 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1265687886' post='2169700']
The problem was IRON's attitude, which was encourage by some in TOP and Gramlins. They felt they were entitled to easy terms. They weren't. Then they even whined about beer reviews, for crying out loud. The fact that TOP especially went to bat for people like that spoke volumes and bred enmity.
[/quote]
To be fair, beer reviews are absolutely retarded.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='Heft' date='09 February 2010 - 01:59 PM' timestamp='1265741945' post='2170906']
To be fair, beer reviews are absolutely retarded.
[/quote]
I think for you guys it should be changed to used car reviews since you'll be a lot better at them.