Announcement from The Order of the Paradox

[Kortal]

let's not pretend the CB-less attack itself changed anything for anyone. None of TOP's supporters, past or present, thought less of them for it (we don't appreciate our allies being attacked mind you, but I didn't actually think less of them for hitting first, in the same manner that I don't think less of airport security for searching that big scary guy in line BEFORE he whips out a shoebomb), and as for enemies, everyone knew where CnG, TOP, and IRON were going to be in the conflict well before they went in.

Far as I can see, TOP's only mistake here was (and continues to be) trusting polar, even if I wish they had chosen other targets entirely

Edited February 8, 2010 by Kortal

[bzelger]

[quote name='Kortal' date='08 February 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1265666299' post='2169133']
let's not pretend the CB-less attack itself changed anything for anyone.[/quote]
It changed things for us.

[Dujek Onearm]

[quote name='Kortal' date='08 February 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1265666299' post='2169133']
let's not pretend the CB-less attack itself changed anything for anyone. None of TOP's supporters, past or present, thought less of them for it (we don't appreciate our allies being attacked mind you, but I didn't actually think less of them for hitting first, in the same manner that I don't think less of airport security for searching that big scary guy in line BEFORE he whips out a shoebomb), and as for enemies, everyone knew where CnG, TOP, and IRON were going to be in the conflict well before they went in.

Far as I can see, TOP's only mistake here was (and continues to be) trusting polar, even if I wish they had chosen other targets entirely
[/quote]

Well, this is your personal opinion. I have heard other people saying other things. Also, looking to the fact that alliances were fighting on the "crusader's" side and now are against TOP's side only shows the obvious: they lost support with their move.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Kortal' date='08 February 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1265666299' post='2169133']
let's not pretend the CB-less attack itself changed anything for anyone. None of TOP's supporters, past or present, thought less of them for it (we don't appreciate our allies being attacked mind you, but I didn't actually think less of them for hitting first, in the same manner that I don't think less of airport security for searching that big scary guy in line BEFORE he whips out a shoebomb), and as for enemies, everyone knew where CnG, TOP, and IRON were going to be in the conflict well before they went in.

Far as I can see, TOP's only mistake here was (and continues to be) trusting polar, even if I wish they had chosen other targets entirely
[/quote]

I think you are very, very wrong. The method TOP chose to enter the war changed things tremendously. I've seen plenty of people that would have been or currently are on TOP's side calling the move stupid (off the top of my head, Ivan Moldavi and Haflinger). If they hadn't done things the way they did for the reasons that they did, the war would probably be over by now.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Kortal]

I thought that showed how polar are opportunists??

STA get honorable mention as additional opportunists of lesser import I guess

When I said it didn't change anything for anyone I meant people of somewhat decent moral character and follow-through

Edit: Too fast for me lb, it changed things for them because polar got tired of war after a bit and agreed to white peace just after TOP was attacked. Aside from this confirming what I've been saying about polar and the dangers of trusting them for days now, I think you'll agree that had they not peaced out as they did, TOP's method of entering the war wouldn't have changed anything for anyone.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Kortal

[neneko]

[quote name='Crymson' date='08 February 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1265665206' post='2169095']
We wouldn't have attacked did we not feel it was part of the war as a whole. And, yes, my DoW was poorly-put; I won't deny that.

I think it bears mention that you are amongst the few who are continuing to maintain the pretense that CnG would have remained uninvolved; you are also one of those very few who will maintain that CnG never intended to be a threat to TOP's security. So sorry, but we have never had ill will towards alliances unless we felt that they clearly wanted to cause us harm & would do so if possible.

In any event, I'm flattered by the attention given me in your signature.
[/quote]
I doubt you'll find anyone claiming CnG as a whole was already set on the \m/ side of the conflict since that simply isn't true.

The fact of the matter is that you have no proof or anything substantial at all to back up any of your claims. There were no plans in CnG to take down TOP and I think that some people there in TOP are slowly comming to the realisation that cng wasn't actually the super evil coalition they thought it was.

The closest you got to anything to back up your claims is a select few people in MK that show a burning hate for TOP. You'll probably find a few people hating any alliance you could pick though. Hell I bet we even got a bunch of people hating mk over here.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Crymson' date='08 February 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1265665206' post='2169095']
I think it bears mention that you are amongst the few who are continuing to maintain the pretense that CnG would have remained uninvolved; [/quote]

Not sure where I said that. I only stated that the circumstances in which we could/would have entered and the course of the war had you not entered aggressively are subject to speculation. It could have very well ended, without requiring CnG or TOP intervention. I'll assume you haven't read my subsequent post before replying.

[quote]you are also one of those very few who will maintain that CnG never intended to be a threat to TOP's security. [/quote]

It has been stated by numerous government members, including Archon (who is the sole authority when it comes down to business, really).

[quote]In any event, I'm flattered by the attention given me in your signature.[/quote]

It's a nice piece, to be honest.

[Lord Brendan]

[quote name='Kortal' date='08 February 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1265667221' post='2169171']
Edit: Too fast for me lb, it changed things for them because polar got tired of war after a bit and agreed to white peace just after TOP was attacked. Aside from this confirming what I've been saying about polar and the dangers of trusting them for days now, I think you'll agree that had they not peaced out as they did, TOP's method of entering the war wouldn't have changed anything for anyone.
[/quote]

Well, it made C&G's involvement certain, and it activated certain treaties that wouldn't have been activated otherwise. It also accelerated the escalation of the war, which was not in TOP's favor seeing as they already had the advantage and the Raiders had more strength in reserve.

It was a stupid move for purely strategic reasons before you even start to consider ethics and whatnot.

Edited February 8, 2010 by Lord Brendan

[Kortal]

Yeah no doubt that it accelerated things tremendously, but prior to NpO pulling out, the crusaders, as they've been dubbed did have the advantage, as you say. So while it would have pulled people into one front rather than potential others, it wouldn't have greatly changed the then-shaping war on its own. Certainly allies would not have pulled out or decided to fight for the other side just out of anger over their preemptive strike at that point. It was only the white peace that led to that

[shahenshah]

edit -nvm- will respond later. mod del pls.

Edited February 8, 2010 by shahenshah

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Krack' date='08 February 2010 - 07:54 PM' timestamp='1265655277' post='2168921']
Oh, there weren't people in TOP and former Gramlins leadership telling IRON to fire off all it's nukes at your Karma allies ... and then once they were empty, the Citadel would basically come in and force a white peace?
[/quote]

What are you talking about? I was milcom of Gremlins at that time and everyone of us was eating nukes.

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='08 February 2010 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1265655753' post='2168926']
That is your opinion, and we happen to disagree

Random MK members did, you mean. I repeatedly stated my dislike of the hostility between MK and TOP, spoke to TOP government (Crymson, usually), on multiple occasions about how it would be nice to see friendship one day between our two alliances, and had even gone as far as to request my members curtail their vociferous dislike of TOP. The last is a particularly large deal as I do not make it a habit to infringe on the freedom of speech I grant within the Kingdom.

But suit yourself.
[/quote]

Thats what i meant actually. MK members saying it made TOP believe it, no matter what happened on gov level. Granted i might not have been a part of the alliance long enough to know.

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='08 February 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1265671729' post='2169290']
What are you talking about? I was milcom of Gremlins at that time and everyone of us was eating nukes.
[/quote]
IRON focused their fire on RoK, which made their demands for a white peace pretty galling to some people.

[Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz]

What a complete cluster$%&@

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1265672117' post='2169303']
IRON focused their fire on RoK, which made their demands for a white peace pretty galling to some people.
[/quote]

For the time when i was part of the negotiations we never demanded white peace. We said that would be our most preferred option but we also understood that RoK took a lot of damage. It really was just about the sum. Ive put this chapter far behind me and its not really the place for it. If anyone has further questions, pm me.

Edited February 8, 2010 by HellAngel

[Arcturus Jefferson]

[quote name='HellAngel' date='08 February 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1265673309' post='2169335']
For the time when i was part of the negotiations we never demanded white peace. We said that would be our most preferred option but we also understood that RoK took a lot of damage. It really was just about the sum. Ive put this chapter far behind me and its not really the place for it. If anyone has further questions, pm me.
[/quote]
Not Gramlins - IRON went into the terms discussion expecting a white peace, and from discussions with some of the people who were there, they were kinda pushy about it.

I'm not sure exactly where this discussion fits in the overall thread at this point, but since it was one of the instances that set up bad blood between a lot of people that lead to this war, I don't think it's too far off topic.

[HellAngel]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='09 February 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1265673775' post='2169352']
Not Gramlins - IRON went into the terms discussion expecting a white peace, and from discussions with some of the people who were there, they were kinda pushy about it.

I'm not sure exactly where this discussion fits in the overall thread at this point, but since it was one of the instances that set up bad blood between a lot of people that lead to this war, I don't think it's too far off topic.
[/quote]
ahh alright. Sorry didnt get that part.

[Bob Janova]

Well, originally we would have pushed for a white peace, but that was earlier in the engagement. Anyway, if IRON focused its nukes on one target, it was nothing to do with us. That was probably more to do with RoK picking up the mid tier when nuclear nations fell down there, although Fark and MHA were in there eating nukes as well as Grämlins' smaller members.

[Ejayrazz]

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' date='08 February 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1265673775' post='2169352']
Not Gramlins - IRON went into the terms discussion expecting a white peace, and from discussions with some of the people who were there, they were kinda pushy about it.

I'm not sure exactly where this discussion fits in the overall thread at this point, but since it was one of the instances that set up bad blood between a lot of people that lead to this war, I don't think it's too far off topic.
[/quote]
"Everyone" could have been classified as a little pushy in that discussion.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='Nedved I' date='08 February 2010 - 07:25 AM' timestamp='1265635534' post='2168656']
Let's just white peace and end it. Were fighting for nothing now.
[/quote]
But all of us like to go pew-pew-pew, spike the GRL past the Karma War's GRL, and let NPO become the top five alliances.

[Krack]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='08 February 2010 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1265659990' post='2169000']
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. Grämlins, and I believe TOP too, were talking to IRON most days trying to get them to stop fighting, because it was friends hurting friends and that's dumb.
[/quote]

C'mon ... Chill was telling everyone who would listen that TOP's position was that it was going to let IRON (and other alliances, I believe Echelon was one), fire off all of it's nukes at other Karma's mid-range nations. Of course, these nukes existed because TOP agreed with them not fire nukes at each other when they were fighting in the upper-tier; it was "we'll have a slap fight and then you can kick the hell out of the other guys with all your good stuff" tactics. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1570980"]TOP denied this publically[/url], but as you can tell by reading through the rest of the linked thread, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571009"]Chill had spilled the beans[/url] (or at the very least slandered the hell out of TOP's military leadership) to most of everyone else. And, if I remember correctly, Chill stepped down shortly thereafter. And, if I further remember correctly, Bob you were quoted in public logs basically crossing Chill off your Christmas card list (and yes, I understand there was other Chill crap going on behind the scenes at the same time).

All that said, to pretend that TOP was fully engaged in the Karma War and fighting to best of their abilities is ridiculous; several of their membership took delight (in the linked thread - [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571099"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571129"]here[/url]) in pointing out that it [i]wasn't their war[/i] - they couldn't be blamed if IRON decided to nuke RIA and Raganarok instead. Both TOP and Gramlins leadership were trying to get IRON white peace from the very start, while TOP was simultaneously pulling their punches and IRON was lobbing the largest nuke stockpile at everyone else in SuperFriends - and everyone knew about it. To suggest that you have no idea what I was talking about (or that I made up some fantasy scenario) is unbecoming.

As I stated in the previous post, I like Gramlins now and liked them then, but let's not pretend everyone in the alliance (including the leadership) was completely on board from the start of the Karma War. It's public knowledge that for a period of time, a sizable portion of the Citadel was prepared to throw OV overboard. Gramlins eventually came around, but they dragged their feet. I was particularly offended at the time, because FARK had been promised by Gramlins that if there was a trumped up attack on any non-tC alliance (specifically including MK, GOD or VE) that the Gramlins would fight with SuperFriends, no questions asked. Then NPO/TPF started going after OV (which everyone recognized was an attempt to antagonize VE) and the Gramlins turned into a debate club.

Do you remember now?

It was a long time ago. The good guys won. But let's not [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80162&view=findpost&p=2164915"]revise history[/url].

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[Bob Janova]

I think I remember it better than you, really . But I don't want to derail this onto a Karma discussion. So let's just say: I don't agree with your view on those events. Grämlins were always going to be part of Karma though, it's just we really didn't want to be on the IRON front because of our connections to them (they were MDP partners of MHA and TOP, and ToA partners of us, at the time).

[quote]Both TOP and Gramlins leadership were trying to get IRON white peace from the very start, while TOP was simultaneously pulling their punches and IRON was lobbing the largest nuke stockpile at everyone else in SuperFriends - and everyone knew about it. To suggest that you have no idea what I was talking about (or that I made up some fantasy scenario) is unbecoming.[/quote]
What you say here, which is substantially true, is very different from what you said before, which is unsubstantiated and not true. At no stage was there any agreement or encouragement for IRON to concentrate fire elsewhere, which is what you claimed, and Harmlins were eating nukes right through the war. (As I said before, the 'concentration of fire' was more to do with most of Grämlins being out of range and therefore not at war at that point than any intent.) Yes, we were pushing for a white peace early on for IRON, because we didn't want them to be in the fight, they were our friends and that whole front was a rather silly treaty/honour 'necessity'. If you remember, IRON agreed to waive the ToA cancellation period so we could hit them, have a nice clean fight and they could get out, honour fulfilled.

[Crispy99]

[quote name='Krack' date='08 February 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1265678425' post='2169456']
C'mon ... Chill was telling everyone who would listen that TOP's position was that it was going to let IRON (and other alliances, I believe Echelon was one), fire off all of it's nukes at other Karma's mid-range nations. Of course, these nukes existed because TOP agreed with them not fire nukes at each other when they were fighting in the upper-tier; it was "we'll have a slap fight and then you can kick the hell out of the other guys with all your good stuff" tactics. [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1570980"]TOP denied this publically[/url], but as you can tell by reading through the rest of the linked thread, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571009"]Chill had spilled the beans[/url] (or at the very least slandered the hell out of TOP's military leadership) to most of everyone else. And, if I remember correctly, Chill stepped down shortly thereafter. And, if I further remember correctly, Bob you were quoted in public logs basically crossing Chill off your Christmas card list (and yes, I understand there was other Chill crap going on behind the scenes at the same time).

All that said, to pretend that TOP was fully engaged in the Karma War and fighting to best of their abilities is ridiculous; several of their membership took delight (in the linked thread - [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571099"]here[/url] and [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571129"]here[/url]) in pointing out that it [i]wasn't their war[/i] - they couldn't be blamed if IRON decided to nuke RIA and Raganarok instead. Both TOP and Gramlins leadership were trying to get IRON white peace from the very start, while TOP was simultaneously pulling their punches and IRON was lobbing the largest nuke stockpile at everyone else in SuperFriends - and everyone knew about it. To suggest that you have no idea what I was talking about (or that I made up some fantasy scenario) is unbecoming.

As I stated in the previous post, I like Gramlins now and liked them then, but let's not pretend everyone in the alliance (including the leadership) was completely on board from the start of the Karma War. It's public knowledge that for a period of time, a sizable portion of the Citadel was prepared to throw OV overboard. Gramlins eventually came around, but they dragged their feet. I was particularly offended at the time, because FARK had been promised by Gramlins that if there was a trumped up attack on any non-tC alliance (specifically including MK, GOD or VE) that the Gramlins would fight with SuperFriends, no questions asked. Then NPO/TPF started going after OV (which everyone recognized was an attempt to antagonize VE) and the Gramlins turned into a debate club.

Do you remember now?

It was a long time ago. The good guys won. But let's not [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80162&view=findpost&p=2164915"]revise history[/url].
[/quote]

You mean I [b]didn't[/b] have to eat nukes, even could have kept it to a mere "slap fight", during Karma? Why didn't .gov give me the memo?

[Krack]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='08 February 2010 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1265680239' post='2169495']
What you say here, which is substantially true, is very different from what you said before, which is unsubstantiated and not true. At no stage was there any agreement or encouragement for IRON to concentrate fire elsewhere, which is what you claimed, and Harmlins were eating nukes right through the war.
[/quote]

Perhaps I was unclear in my earlier statement. I am suggesting [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=59028&view=findpost&p=1571174"]TOP leadership and Chill told IRON[/url] they could fire off everything they had and once they did, they'd get them white peace. I am further suggesting TOP and IRON cut a deal so that they wouldn't be shooting at each other. And I am further suggesting that you knew this had occurred, shortly after it happened. I make no suggestions as to whether or not you condoned it (and based on everything I've heard over the past year, I'm fairly certain you did not condone it and were actually angry about it). Regardless, it's what I suggested in my previous post:

[quote]Oh, there weren't people in TOP and former Gramlins leadership telling IRON to fire off all it's nukes at your Karma allies ... and then once they were empty, the Citadel would basically come in and force a white peace? [/quote]

There were. And they did. I wasn't tremendously happy about it at the time. I imagine a bunch of other people weren't either. And when TOP tries to figure out why people are antagonistic towards them, they might want to examine this period in their alliance's history.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Krack

[Krack]

[quote name='Crispy99' date='08 February 2010 - 08:10 PM' timestamp='1265681457' post='2169516']
You mean I [b]didn't[/b] have to eat nukes, even could have kept it to a mere "slap fight", during Karma? Why didn't .gov give me the memo?
[/quote]

I don't know, you should ask around. I got a copy of the memo and was an average schlep in FARK at the time (as opposed to the glorious military leader in Aloha I am now).

[Atanatar]

An average schlep who has a distinguished career in Public Service to Fark. Give your self credit, Krack. Not your fault people came to trust you even after you laid down the mantle of leadership.