Howdy IAA and ZDP

[NationReaper]

This topic could die now..the matter is solved..and it is peaceful once again.

[Tygaland]

no, i was stated it was a difference between the Athens raid and this one. in the Athens raid, KoN did not fight back to my knowledge. in this one, TPF is using the fact that ZDP fought back as a reason to deny reps, which if KoN did fight back, Athens did not do (for which i applaud them).

So, you said exactly what I thought you said, thanks for confirming.

again the main difference is in the execution. Athens/FoB organized an alliance wide raid. NEW in this instance had a single person conduct a raid. if you do not see the difference, then i am unsure what to say.

The difference to you is not the act but the scale which is exactly why people defending NEW but who condemned Athens are hypocrites. Can you let me know what level the line between acceptable and unacceptable sits?

that is actually untrue. i was one of those people that were outraged with Athens but once they backed off and commenced on negotations, i did back off. also see my above comment as it seems that you did not see my comment on alliance wide vs single raid previously.

But you are not outraged at NEW, not even mildly annoyed. Which is exactly what I was talking about. Double standards.

actually ZDP and NEW agreed to keep it one v one. ZDP had no issue with that. what is reprehensible about NEW is their escalation of the affair since Aming was present when the agreement was made and then NEW added a third raider.

Well, at least you are sort of stating NEW did something wrong. We are getting somewhere slowly.

NEW did not conduct an alliance wide raid on ZDP. it began as a 1v1 and escalated from there. that is reprehensible. i am not saying that what NEW did was good or anything, and to be honest, since i am part of IAA, i am spending the majority of my time defending IAA against mhawk's accusations against IAA. i have not railed against anyone who stated that NEW is wrong or reprehensible or any such.

So, I ask again. How many aligned nations need to be raided before it is a breach of an alliance sovereignty? Just for future reference so I can work out when raids on aligned nations are ok and when they are not.

i simply do not think this needs to get lumped into what Athens did since what Athens did was different than this. what NEW did is reprehensible and shows that one should not trust NEW or their word but to state that NEW began this by alliance wide raiding all of ZDP, in fact, looking through ZDP's wars, only 3 nations out of 11 have been hit by NEW. one of those nations only after hitting 3 NEW nations. thus, outside of Kane, NEW has only hit one other nation who has not hit NEW first.

OK, so just inder 30% of an alliance being raided is ok with you. Is 30% the cut off?

so can you please tell me how that is the same as what Athens did?

NEW raided a nation that was a member of an alliance. Athens raided nations that were members of an alliance. The act is the same, the scale is the only difference. Seeing as the majority of the rage over the Athens affair was under the guise of railing against the breach of KoN!'s sovereignty and the "injustice" of raiding an alliance I see the acts as the same but the reaction quite different.

I'm looking forwards to you informing me on the scale of raiding that is and is not acceptable in the Cyberverse as clearly there is a line somewhere. On the other hand, I see the attack on an aligned nation, refusal to pay reps and reneging on a peace deal as a breach of an alliance's sovereignty and complete and utter contempt of that alliance as a whole. something you seem perfectly fine with, it seems.

[Yevgeni Luchenkov]

ZDP: an alliance that does not believe in treaties, that does not recognize tech raiding as anything but war, and yet choose to exist as a federation of 8 nations at the time of these raids. I would say an 8 nation alliance with no treaties would fall into the majority of tech raiding guidelines in alliances that practice the stuff (The Resistance included).

Demanding reps? Yeah that can be reasonable in some cases. You'll probably get reps from us, for example. Demanding reps, or else?

That's not wise.

Actually, Matt, you should definitely know better. We do not take raids as nothing "but war". Two of your members raided one of ours. Did we DoW you en masse? Did we escalate the matter? We came to you, seeking a peaceful resolution, even if one of those raiders had used bombing runs and cruise missiles.

Fortunately, your alliance has some good level-headed government people and peace was settled.

Also, we probably could start recruiting the day we will be at peace. It's not our fault if people started raiding us while we still were at war (in a ceasefire, by that time) with the GOONS!

We're probably going to enjoy our first days of peace of our existence. Expect us to quickly make an official DoE and reach the 20 members cap, to avoid raids. Also, we have taken a lesson out of all these wars and adapted our position to better protect ourselves while not betraying our ideals.

Expect that DoE to come with something else.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Yevgeni Luchenkov

[Scorbolt]

I think somehow I missed about a dozen pages of this thread.

Glad to see a resolution.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Scorbolt

[Dochartaigh]

So, you said exactly what I thought you said, thanks for confirming.

The difference to you is not the act but the scale which is exactly why people defending NEW but who condemned Athens are hypocrites. Can you let me know what level the line between acceptable and unacceptable sits?

But you are not outraged at NEW, not even mildly annoyed. Which is exactly what I was talking about. Double standards.

Well, at least you are sort of stating NEW did something wrong. We are getting somewhere slowly.

So, I ask again. How many aligned nations need to be raided before it is a breach of an alliance sovereignty? Just for future reference so I can work out when raids on aligned nations are ok and when they are not.

OK, so just inder 30% of an alliance being raided is ok with you. Is 30% the cut off?

NEW raided a nation that was a member of an alliance. Athens raided nations that were members of an alliance. The act is the same, the scale is the only difference. Seeing as the majority of the rage over the Athens affair was under the guise of railing against the breach of KoN!'s sovereignty and the "injustice" of raiding an alliance I see the acts as the same but the reaction quite different.

I'm looking forwards to you informing me on the scale of raiding that is and is not acceptable in the Cyberverse as clearly there is a line somewhere. On the other hand, I see the attack on an aligned nation, refusal to pay reps and reneging on a peace deal as a breach of an alliance's sovereignty and complete and utter contempt of that alliance as a whole. something you seem perfectly fine with, it seems.

again, i find what NEW did reprehensible. the issue i have at hand is it being compared to Athens. that is pretty much like taking the STA/MK vs WAPA war and comparing it to the UjW simply because both were wars and saying that both are equal simply because they are both wars. i doubt anyone, including yourself would state that considering the massive differences between the two wars.

also, offhand i do not know who is defending NEW that railed against Athens? unless you speak of TPF or VA... i for one have not defended NEW, i simply stated facts as they are. if you wish to take that as me defending NEW, that is your wish. i can lay out facts regardless of my feelings on the matter.

"But you are not outraged at NEW, not even mildly annoyed. Which is exactly what I was talking about. Double standards."

what double standards? i never once gave my opinion on NEW's raid. i gave facts as to why NEW's raid was different from Athen's raid and that was it.

as for me not calling out NEW, like i said before, i was busy defending IAA from baseless accusations. also, with peace talks already underway, i did what i reacted the same as i did in the Athens situation and backed off. unfortunately it seems, this was not made public prior to peace talks being underway and thus, no moral outrage from me. but to state i am being a hypocrite or using double standards is fallacious. since i even stated and you quoted me, that i backed off when Athens started peace talks.

also, if you wish to get into percentages, actually less than 20% since again, 1 of those nations is involved in 3 offensive wars against NEW prior to being hit. but i guess from now on, i will let you speak for me since you seem to like putting words in my mouth or spinning my words to be something other than what they are.

i look forward to you speaking for me from now on Tyga. since 90% of what you are saying i said, is nowhere close to what i said. and the rest, is nowhere close to what i meant. as i said before, i stated facts on the differences, never gave an opinion on the matter, and never once used double standards. had i known about this prior to the peace talks, yes i would have been on NEW like i was on Athens, but like with Athens, peace talks were underway. thus, i backed off before getting on essentially since i backed off of Athens during their peace talks.

but then again, it seems you know what i want to say far better than i do. thus, i look forward to you informing me of my opinions as well as speaking on my behalf since you already want to do that for me.

[Tygaland]

again, i find what NEW did reprehensible. the issue i have at hand is it being compared to Athens. that is pretty much like taking the STA/MK vs WAPA war and comparing it to the UjW simply because both were wars and saying that both are equal simply because they are both wars. i doubt anyone, including yourself would state that considering the massive differences between the two wars.

OK, you are resorting to the absurd now. NEW raided a member of an alliance, Athens raided a member of an alliance. The same act, just a different scale. One you have no problem with, the other your were infuriated by. Clearly the act itself is not your concern so it must be the scale. You still haven't told me where the line is between acceptable raids on an alliance ends and unacceptable begins.

also, offhand i do not know who is defending NEW that railed against Athens? unless you speak of TPF or VA... i for one have not defended NEW, i simply stated facts as they are. if you wish to take that as me defending NEW, that is your wish. i can lay out facts regardless of my feelings on the matter.

No, you obfuscated when asked about your double standard. If NSO had raided an aligned nation, refused to peace out and pay reps and then reneged on the peace deal that was agreed, I'm sure everyone's reaction would be the same. Ha!

what double standards? i never once gave my opinion on NEW's raid. i gave facts as to why NEW's raid was different from Athen's raid and that was it.

It is not what you said but what you did not say.

as for me not calling out NEW, like i said before, i was busy defending IAA from baseless accusations. also, with peace talks already underway, i did what i reacted the same as i did in the Athens situation and backed off. unfortunately it seems, this was not made public prior to peace talks being underway and thus, no moral outrage from me. but to state i am being a hypocrite or using double standards is fallacious. since i even stated and you quoted me, that i backed off when Athens started peace talks.

And busy making excuses for NEW.

also, if you wish to get into percentages, actually less than 20% since again, 1 of those nations is involved in 3 offensive wars against NEW prior to being hit. but i guess from now on, i will let you speak for me since you seem to like putting words in my mouth or spinning my words to be something other than what they are.

i look forward to you speaking for me from now on Tyga. since 90% of what you are saying i said, is nowhere close to what i said. and the rest, is nowhere close to what i meant. as i said before, i stated facts on the differences, never gave an opinion on the matter, and never once used double standards. had i known about this prior to the peace talks, yes i would have been on NEW like i was on Athens, but like with Athens, peace talks were underway. thus, i backed off before getting on essentially since i backed off of Athens during their peace talks.

I was using your figures, 3 nations out of 11. You can't accuse me of putting words in your mouth when the words I use are yours. Your "differences" were not differences in the act that so appalled you a few weeks ago, merely the scale. Nothing you have said has shown me otherwise.

but then again, it seems you know what i want to say far better than i do. thus, i look forward to you informing me of my opinions as well as speaking on my behalf since you already want to do that for me.

The last flailing words of a lost argument. Perhaps if your opinions on issues were more consistent it's be easier to defend your position.

[Dochartaigh]

OK, you are resorting to the absurd now. NEW raided a member of an alliance, Athens raided a member of an alliance. The same act, just a different scale. One you have no problem with, the other your were infuriated by. Clearly the act itself is not your concern so it must be the scale. You still haven't told me where the line is between acceptable raids on an alliance ends and unacceptable begins.

NEW raided a member, Athens raided the entire alliance. yes, the scale is clearly different. i never once claimed the act was different, just the scale. you are the one who keeps saying that i am the one saying the act is different.

No, you obfuscated when asked about your double standard. If NSO had raided an aligned nation, refused to peace out and pay reps and then reneged on the peace deal that was agreed, I'm sure everyone's reaction would be the same. Ha!

honestly, i do not care what would happen if NSO did this. since NSO did not do this, i have no clue why they have been brought up? honestly, i do not care what others outrage against or do not, i am simply now defending myself from you twisting my words around instead of accepting them for what they were. facts on the differences between the NEW raid on ZDP and the Athens raid on KoN.

as for obfuscation, where did i obfuscate? i did not hide a damn thing. i stated a fact. peace talks were underway between NEW and ZDP before this thread was made. FACT. when Athens and KoN went to the peace table, i ceased all outrage against them. FACT.

where is there obfuscation? i do not see it whatsoever, nor do i see any double standards involved. i am sorry that Penkala or yourself for that matter, since you are obviously so outraged over this, did not bring up the NEW raid prior to the peace talks being underway so that i could do what you want me to do. in fact, you called out the people who continued to outrage Athens when Athens went to peace talks but now call out those people who did not call out NEW while NEW was already in peace talks... seems that you are the hypocrite and the one committing double standards Tyga. as you seem outraged that people called Athens out in the middle of peace talks but now seem outraged that people do not call NEW out in the middle of peace talks.

It is not what you said but what you did not say.

so you are not even reading what i post now, just puttin in what ever you want or ignoring what inconviences your opinion. i could have sworn you quoted me saying that i found NEW's actions reprehensible.... obviously, that is not enough for you.

And busy making excuses for NEW.

yes, i was making excuses...... stating that NEW broke their word, stating that NEW tech raided a ZDP member, and what not. yes those are most definitely excuses. no. now you are just seriously stretching what i am saying. i stated facts on what NEW did and what Athens did and stated those facts are different in scale. never once i did i say NEW did nothing wrong. never once did i say that NEW was excused for what they did. in fact, i have said that NEW is untrustworthy and that their actions throughout this entire affair were reprehensible. but you seem to choose to ignore those since you cannot call me a hypocrite or state i did not say it or state that i was making excuses.

I was using your figures, 3 nations out of 11. You can't accuse me of putting words in your mouth when the words I use are yours. Your "differences" were not differences in the act that so appalled you a few weeks ago, merely the scale. Nothing you have said has shown me otherwise.

my figures. then you ignored the part where i stated one of those nations was attacked after declaring 3 offensive wars against NEW. but that is getting typical of you. ignoring that which does not fit neatly into what you want to actually be it seems.

as for my differences not being differences a few weeks ago- wait what? did this action somehow time ripple backwards so that it is occurring at the same time as the Athens incident????? or am i supposed to somehow predict the future and see that this incident was going to occur? or did you not see where i argued that a 5 man alliance is SOL vs an alliance larger than that since a 5 man alliance was the norm for CN in the majority of cases?

The last flailing words of a lost argument. Perhaps if your opinions on issues were more consistent it's be easier to defend your position.

i am finding it quite easy to defend my position given the fact that you have simply chosen a tactic of ignoring the parts of my arguments that defeats your argument (i.e. my saying NEW's actions are reprehensible for example) or stating that i am obfuscating some part of my argument that was by no means hidden or cloudy or shadowy but was fairly straight forward.

what lost argument? lawlz. i am just getting tired of you putting words into my mouth or twisting what i say to fit what you want it to say or ignoring what i said.

[Geoffron X]

Read: I don't think ZDP had the right to defend themselves against their attackers, and since they did so, no reps for them.

I know I always defend myself by attacking people who were barely involved.

Edit: Oh god it got to 18 pages. Did not see that. Um. I'm sure that your point has likely been debated to death, but it's 1:30 AM and I'm not reading the thread.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Geoffron X

[Augustus Autumn]

I'm in no way involved in any of this so I can speak about the specifics of the situation. What I've noticed with some non-native speakers over the internet is while they understand the literal language fine often nuances are lost. Sometimes it can make them (or the people talking to them) seem humorless and/or aggressive. This sometimes can happen with native speakers since often times it is body language that lets us see context. Sarcasm, slang, and inside jokes being misunderstood has long been a source of silly and stupid internet arguments.

From my dealings with NEW their english is pretty good. But for someone who isn't a native speaker to perhaps be misunderstood or to misunderstand is not uncommon and to be expected. It is just common courtesy to suggest a certain degree of understanding should be extended.

I'm down with being cuddly and stuff for those who don't have a certain language set under their belt, but for the crowd out there waving the "NEW doesn't understand what you're saying!" flag every time I/you/somebody has an issue with them it gets damned old, especially in this cirumstance when it was pretty clear that the person spoken with did, in fact, have a viable grasp on the language. You want to complain the first time around? Sure. For NEW this is about the 80th or 900th time this has been an issue. Time to deal with it, kids.

Also, yay peace and all that - it again proves how pointless this posturing was.

[erikz]

Language argument in the OP is totally invalid. This game is in English, so you better understand it and speak it.

[shahenshah]

I hope this can end in global sigh and 'lets shoot the diplomats'

o\ TPF.

Edited December 16, 2009 by shahenshah

[Tygaland]

NEW raided a member, Athens raided the entire alliance. yes, the scale is clearly different. i never once claimed the act was different, just the scale. you are the one who keeps saying that i am the one saying the act is different.

Then if the act is the same, why the difference of reaction? You know, the question I raised intially?

honestly, i do not care what would happen if NSO did this. since NSO did not do this, i have no clue why they have been brought up? honestly, i do not care what others outrage against or do not, i am simply now defending myself from you twisting my words around instead of accepting them for what they were. facts on the differences between the NEW raid on ZDP and the Athens raid on KoN.

The reason I brought up NSO is because you can be sure the reaction to them doing what NEW did here would be much more animated and accusatory. Which is another example of how issues like this generate a reaction based on who commits the "wrong" rather than what the "wrong" committed was.

as for obfuscation, where did i obfuscate? i did not hide a damn thing. i stated a fact. peace talks were underway between NEW and ZDP before this thread was made. FACT. when Athens and KoN went to the peace table, i ceased all outrage against them. FACT.

That wasn't what you were talking about at all. You came into the thread to challenge my assertion that the act NEW committed against ZDP was the same as the one Athens committed against KON! by mentioning that ZDP fighting back was a legitimate reason for them not to gain reparations for an unprovoked attack on their alliance as well as claiming that because a peace agreement was being discussed (and breached as it turns out) that NEW's actions were somehow less an attack on ZDP's sovereignty than Athens' attacks on KoN! I honestly could not care less if you stopped raging on Athens after they went to the table to discuss terms with KoN!, many people didn't as a cursory glance over the forum would show.

where is there obfuscation? i do not see it whatsoever, nor do i see any double standards involved.

Really. So, one alliance raids another and gets harrassed for weeks over it and another does the same thing and get a few hails. Yeah, no double standards at all.

i am sorry that Penkala or yourself for that matter, since you are obviously so outraged over this, did not bring up the NEW raid prior to the peace talks being underway so that i could do what you want me to do. in fact, you called out the people who continued to outrage Athens when Athens went to peace talks but now call out those people who did not call out NEW while NEW was already in peace talks... seems that you are the hypocrite and the one committing double standards Tyga. as you seem outraged that people called Athens out in the middle of peace talks but now seem outraged that people do not call NEW out in the middle of peace talks.

The peace talks have nothing to do with anything. I have been and still am talking about the act of raiding an alliance which, a few weeks ago, was a crime worthy of abuse and ridicule but is now not that big of a deal apparently. So, to the people who seem to be OK with NEW's raid and not Athens' I asked where the line to be crossed is between acceptable trampling of an alliance's sovereignty and unacceptable trampling of an alliance's sovereignty.

I fail to see how my consistent stance on the matter makes me a hypocrite. That is quite a leap of logic there.

so you are not even reading what i post now, just puttin in what ever you want or ignoring what inconviences your opinion. i could have sworn you quoted me saying that i found NEW's actions reprehensible.... obviously, that is not enough for you.

Your initial response to me made no mention of that at all. Later posts conceded the reneging on a peace deal and escalation of the conflict was reprehensible but I'm not sure you have stated the raid on ZDP was reprehensible.

yes, i was making excuses...... stating that NEW broke their word, stating that NEW tech raided a ZDP member, and what not. yes those are most definitely excuses. no. now you are just seriously stretching what i am saying. i stated facts on what NEW did and what Athens did and stated those facts are different in scale. never once i did i say NEW did nothing wrong. never once did i say that NEW was excused for what they did. in fact, i have said that NEW is untrustworthy and that their actions throughout this entire affair were reprehensible. but you seem to choose to ignore those since you cannot call me a hypocrite or state i did not say it or state that i was making excuses.

Again, back to your initial reply to me. All it was was excuses to try and lessen what NEW had done.

my figures. then you ignored the part where i stated one of those nations was attacked after declaring 3 offensive wars against NEW. but that is getting typical of you. ignoring that which does not fit neatly into what you want to actually be it seems.

Your qualm was over the figures I cited, which were yours.

as for my differences not being differences a few weeks ago- wait what? did this action somehow time ripple backwards so that it is occurring at the same time as the Athens incident????? or am i supposed to somehow predict the future and see that this incident was going to occur? or did you not see where i argued that a 5 man alliance is SOL vs an alliance larger than that since a 5 man alliance was the norm for CN in the majority of cases?

I think you misread what I posted. Your reply makes no sense at all.

i am finding it quite easy to defend my position given the fact that you have simply chosen a tactic of ignoring the parts of my arguments that defeats your argument (i.e. my saying NEW's actions are reprehensible for example) or stating that i am obfuscating some part of my argument that was by no means hidden or cloudy or shadowy but was fairly straight forward.

what lost argument? lawlz. i am just getting tired of you putting words into my mouth or twisting what i say to fit what you want it to say or ignoring what i said.

All you said was that NEW's escalation of the situation was reprehensible, not the raid itself. Any other references to reprehensibility were non-specific so I assume they refer to the same action I just mentioned.

I haven't put any words in your mouth nor twisted them. I haven't ignored what you said. Your initial comment was to use peripheral information to try and cloud what NEW had done. For example stating that ZDP fighting back somehow made NEW's raid less of a breach of ZDP's sovereignty (if that is not what you meant then I have no idea why you mentioned it) and that peace terms were being discussed when this thread was posted (again, this has nothing to do with the actual raid on ZDP). When I asked you to clarify what constituted a good or bad raid on an alliance you avoided answering and tried to turn my general statement about the reactions to this incident and the Athens incident into a statement about your personal reactions to both. You eventually concede that the escalation by NEW was reprehensible but never state the raid itself was. Seeing as the raiding of alliances was such an issue a few weeks back I expressed my surprise at the general non-reaction to this issue.

[Timmmehhh]

Since when is IAA strong enough to threaten alliances like NEW ?

NEW would slaughter them in 1v1 battle, get a grip on reality IAA.

[Indra Saputra]

o/ NEW

[Mathias]

Since when is IAA strong enough to threaten alliances like NEW ?

NEW would slaughter them in 1v1 battle, get a grip on reality IAA.

The whole issue is that they didn't threaten NEW. You should have at least skimmed a couple of pages.

[Tromp]

Well, this was an interesting read...

Mhawk made NEW looking more bad, I doubt that ever was his intention.

[mattski133]

Actually, Matt, you should definitely know better. We do not take raids as nothing "but war". Two of your members raided one of ours. Did we DoW you en masse? Did we escalate the matter? We came to you, seeking a peaceful resolution, even if one of those raiders had used bombing runs and cruise missiles.

Fortunately, your alliance has some good level-headed government people and peace was settled.

Also, we probably could start recruiting the day we will be at peace. It's not our fault if people started raiding us while we still were at war (in a ceasefire, by that time) with the GOONS!

We're probably going to enjoy our first days of peace of our existence. Expect us to quickly make an official DoE and reach the 20 members cap, to avoid raids. Also, we have taken a lesson out of all these wars and adapted our position to better protect ourselves while not betraying our ideals.

Expect that DoE to come with something else.

I'm not sure that I should "know better". I simply stated the policy you gave to us, and that it's a really bad one in this environment. I hope you take better steps to safeguard your members in the future, as you say you are.

[Chimaera]

Since when is IAA strong enough to threaten alliances like NEW ?

NEW would slaughter them in 1v1 battle, get a grip on reality IAA.

Except we didn't threaten NEW.

A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

[Bob Janova]

ZDP contributed to that escalation by attacking NEW nations that were not involved in the raid or the counter to your counter.

I know the issue is now dead, but I must respond to this blatant untruth. It's, well, a lie, unless Mhawk is so blind that he couldn't read the war screen at the time of posting. It appears to be true now because of the peacing out of wars. The only non-responsive wars under the ZDP AA are by Voldorish, and considering that he had already launched a war from the None AA on the same day, that is likely not to be an official ZDP attack.

Also, even if that's not the case, when NEW had broken an agreement, lied and declared war on several ZDP member states, it is laughable to blame the defender for 'escalation' if they have one nation declare on unengaged targets within the alliance which is attacking them.

[KahlanRahl]

Since when is IAA strong enough to threaten alliances like NEW ?

NEW would slaughter them in 1v1 battle, get a grip on reality IAA.

Except we didn't threaten NEW.

A little reading comprehension goes a long way.

Or just, the act of reading the thread itself comprehension is one thing, that statement came as a result of pure laziness

Edited December 16, 2009 by KahlanRahl

[Kevin McDonald]

Glad this matter was ultimately resolved, but... wow, just wow. Clearly TPF learned nothing from Karma.

I read the entire thread, and it seems like every time IAA brought evidence and logs to back up their point, mhawk and co. responded with posturing, hearsay, and speculation. This really could have been resolved with mhawk querying Chimaera. Resolution would have occured in like, 5 minutes, when both of them realized it wasn't worth their time.

[Dochartaigh]

Then if the act is the same, why the difference of reaction? You know, the question I raised intially?

seriously? ok, i will break it down then. what Athens did was akin to war, in fact most against what Athens did said it was in fact a CBless war and not just a raid. that is why there was such an outrage against Athens. i myself saw what Athens did as essentially a CBless war due to the fact that it was an alliance wide, organized hit on every or almost every nation in KoN. so if you still do not see a difference, then you are just willingly ignorant.

The reason I brought up NSO is because you can be sure the reaction to them doing what NEW did here would be much more animated and accusatory. Which is another example of how issues like this generate a reaction based on who commits the "wrong" rather than what the "wrong" committed was.

That wasn't what you were talking about at all. You came into the thread to challenge my assertion that the act NEW committed against ZDP was the same as the one Athens committed against KON! by mentioning that ZDP fighting back was a legitimate reason for them not to gain reparations for an unprovoked attack on their alliance as well as claiming that because a peace agreement was being discussed (and breached as it turns out) that NEW's actions were somehow less an attack on ZDP's sovereignty than Athens' attacks on KoN! I honestly could not care less if you stopped raging on Athens after they went to the table to discuss terms with KoN!, many people didn't as a cursory glance over the forum would show.

strawman at best since you have no idea how anyone would actually react. thus, no reason to bring NSO into this whatsoever.

actually again, stop putting words in my mouth. i mentioned ZDP fighting back as a reason NEW gave for not giving reps. not as a legit reason. never once did i say that and i would appreciate it if you would actually stick to what was said instead of continuing to put words in my mouth because that is the only way you have any actual argument against me.

and i again never said the actions were less. i stated that since i stopped decrying Athens when they went to the tables, why should i be an ACTUAL hypocrite and decry NEW while they are at the peace table. see, it is simple things like this that make it seem you are purposely acting ignorant Tyga. it is simple crap like you blatantly misinterpreting what was said or blatantly adding words where there were none, that makes it seem as if you know you have no leg to stand on and thus, resort to such childish tactics in order to continue an argument against me that has failed from the beginning. (see, i can do such crap too)

Really. So, one alliance raids another and gets harrassed for weeks over it and another does the same thing and get a few hails. Yeah, no double standards at all.

The peace talks have nothing to do with anything. I have been and still am talking about the act of raiding an alliance which, a few weeks ago, was a crime worthy of abuse and ridicule but is now not that big of a deal apparently. So, to the people who seem to be OK with NEW's raid and not Athens' I asked where the line to be crossed is between acceptable trampling of an alliance's sovereignty and unacceptable trampling of an alliance's sovereignty.

where are the hails? i see no hails over it except by NEW's allies, which to my knowledge, Athens/FoB had the same from their allies..... and again, since you are willfully ignoring the scale issue which to many made what Athens/FoB did a war and not a raid, then whatever. honestly you are just amusing me now as i find your tactics annoying but funny as they usually are reserved for those with less intelligence than you have Tyga. though i have always wondered what it would be to be like willfully blind myself towards something just so i could make an argument. and before you even attempt to state i am doing the same, i have acknowledged everything you have said, you are the one who has chosen to ignore the scale issue, which to many i would say is a serious difference- just because you do not find it serious, does not mean the reason lacks any substance.

again, you seem to think that lack of something means that everyone is okay with it. wow. just wow. i have not read many if any posts where people are telling NEW that they are awesome or that what they did was great. silence does not mean condoning, it just means that there are what TOP and IAA helping ZDP gain peace.... yeah, totally means that everyone is okey dokey with this raid Tyga. you got me, seriously just stop, this is getting pathetic.

I fail to see how my consistent stance on the matter makes me a hypocrite. That is quite a leap of logic there.

really? you stated that you were outraged over the lack of moral outrage from everyone who decried Athens, then later said you were disgusted by everyone who continued (stating that everyone who decried Athens initially continued after they entered peace talks, which was false because i did not and i know others did not as well thus, at least one lie you spoke) being morally outraged during the peace talks.

thus, the fact that you want people to be morally outraged and decry NEW while they are in peace talks, makes you a hypocrite since your stance is people should not decry others in a peace talk. this is of course because you found it disgusting that people did so to Athens and since you are basing your entire argument on what people did or did not do to Athens as well as it seems how you felt or did not feel about Athens, then for the sake of consistency, i too am basing some of my argument on what you say about the Athens situation. this of course includes what you say about those who decried Athens.

thus, do to what you have actually said (and unlike you, me not putting words in your mouth), you are acting with double standards. or you just want the best of both worlds and should people have decried NEW during peace talks, you can come here and be morally outraged that people would stoop to acting like they did with Athens and decry NEW while NEW was in peace talks...... which by much of your argument, you are just looking to compare this to Athens in whatever way possible, ignoring facts, ignoring what i write half the time it seems, adding words to what i say, blatantly misinterpreting what i say, and so on and so forth. thus, it seems you only want to say what you say and have it be taken as gospel, when in fact, you are basically wrong about much of it.

even Athens has not compared this to what they did..... only you and you alone from what i can tell is comparing this to Athens.

Your initial response to me made no mention of that at all. Later posts conceded the reneging on a peace deal and escalation of the conflict was reprehensible but I'm not sure you have stated the raid on ZDP was reprehensible.

gee, could that be because i was simply stating facts and not my opinions. oh gee Tyga could that just by golly be????? wait, that would make your argument invalid then, since you based much of your argument on the lie that what i said initially was my opinion, and not me stating facts about the differences between the two situations. well, i don't foresee you admitting that. but maybe you will surprise me.

except i also stated that "what NEW did was reprehensible" which kinda covers everything they did. as for why i did not becoming oh so morally outraged (wait, i just realized something, throughout all this, neither have you. you expect me and others to rail against NEW and you haven't..... oh sure you said their actions were reprehensible, but so have i, so i am just gonna pull a Tyga and ignore that.)

against the initial raid, if ZDP had no real issue with it, why should i? i have seen many alliances have members raid other alliances. initially NEW agreed with ZDP to keep the war 1v1. you want to know something, i will let you in on a little secret. when Athens/FoB hit KoN, the only reason they backed off was due to OWF pressure and mainly allies pressure. i bet from the way they were talking about might makes right and do something about it, had it not been for their allies or the OWF, had KoN asked for reps, they would have been laughed at. had KoN fought back at all, they would have been destroyed due to what Athens/FoB considered escalation (basically any retaliation if FoB has the same standards as Athens had in the tech raid policy they quoted back then).

so the fact that when ZDP went to NEW and NEW promised to keep it 1v1 is a dramatic improvement to the many 3v1 "raids" that KoN got hit with. honestly, you are amazing me with your inability to grasp simple facts at this moment Tyga.

Again, back to your initial reply to me. All it was was excuses to try and lessen what NEW had done.

all it was were facts, not excuses. just because you think that it is like Athens, does not mean it is. you have not provided any evidence whatsoever that i have not refuted to back up your claim.

you claim the act is the same, when in fact many claim what Athens did was not tech raiding but a war, which was why they were morally outraged.

you even stated i was correct in the scale being different (gee i wonder why that could be......... 1 raid vs 40 something on KoN who had an alliance of like 39............)

so yes, by the facts, what NEW did was far less than what Athens did. so why should there be this huge commotion over NEW raiding ZDP? especially when initially NEW responded in a way that was friggin agreeable to ZDP.

your argument has never had anything to stand on. your comparison is utter fail and only you seem to think it is worthy of comparison.

you have had to resort to twisting what i say, ignoring what i say, and crap tactics like that to even have a chance Tyga against what i have said.

Your qualm was over the figures I cited, which were yours.

seriously, not you are just being dumb and acting stupid. go back and reread what i said. go on. now tell me i did not state that one of NEW hitting ZDP wars was not done after the fact that said ZDP nation offensively hit 3 NEW nations. go on. oh wait, you can't. thus, as can be seen, this is the second time you have willfully ignored what i said. if you are gonna use what i say to attempt to support your argument, do not ignore the part and then continue to ignore the part that puts a hole in your argument. it makes you look ignorant and frankly at this point i am thinking you are just being ignorant on purpose. what was once annoyingly funny, you have turned into pathetic.

I think you misread what I posted. Your reply makes no sense at all.

i wonder why...... "Your "differences" were not differences in the act that so appalled you a few weeks ago, merely the scale. Nothing you have said has shown me otherwise."

what you said to me. the only thing i can make of that is that i would have had to know that NEW would raid ZDP back when Athens hit KoN..... considering the fact that the differences i pointed out were actual differences. the scale issue is the most apparent to most i would assume except you.

but honestly most of what i said there was simply because i am tired of you blatantly ignoring, misinterpreting what i say, and crap like that, so i decided to do the same to you. except when you call me out on it, i acknowledge it.

you though, have continued to ignore part of what i say, continued to blatantly misinterpret what i say, and continue to resorting to crap tactics to attempt to salvage your fail argument. i am done with that. if you wish to debate like gentleman, then i am for that. if you wish to debate like a child, then you are on your own.

can't wait for you to state that my argument was lost and thus i just gave up.

All you said was that NEW's escalation of the situation was reprehensible, not the raid itself. Any other references to reprehensibility were non-specific so I assume they refer to the same action I just mentioned.

actually, the first time i said something was reprehensible, it was the escalation. after that i said what NEW did was reprehensible. which kinda means all they did. this is what the 3rd time you have ignored that now..... but that is okay, i am getting used to that from you now.

I haven't put any words in your mouth nor twisted them. I haven't ignored what you said. Your initial comment was to use peripheral information to try and cloud what NEW had done. For example stating that ZDP fighting back somehow made NEW's raid less of a breach of ZDP's sovereignty (if that is not what you meant then I have no idea why you mentioned it) and that peace terms were being discussed when this thread was posted (again, this has nothing to do with the actual raid on ZDP). When I asked you to clarify what constituted a good or bad raid on an alliance you avoided answering and tried to turn my general statement about the reactions to this incident and the Athens incident into a statement about your personal reactions to both. You eventually concede that the escalation by NEW was reprehensible but never state the raid itself was. Seeing as the raiding of alliances was such an issue a few weeks back I expressed my surprise at the general non-reaction to this issue.

actually you have. when i stated all i was stating was facts, you stated that those were my opinions and thus i was a hypocrite. when i stated that i cannot be a hypocrite since i am treating NEW as i treated Athens (did not decry Athens when they went to peace talks, did not decry NEW when they were in peace talks how the $%&@ is that double standards, only you it seems Tyga, only you....). it is not my fault that there was no previous thread where i could decry but you stated i was acting with double standards and twisted my words by saying they are were obfuscate, when i have no !@#$@#$ clue how they could be any more clear.....

you have ignored where i stated that i found NEW's actions reprehensible and only see the one statement i made where i said the escalation by NEW was reprehensible. in fact, you ignored the "I find what NEW did reprehensible" statement at least 3 times now, but of course you are not ignoring what i say Tyga, of course not....

i never eventually conceded !@#$. what i felt is what i felt from the beginning. so there is yet another twisting of my words.

what Athens did was commit war not raid. an organized alliance wide hit on another alliance is nothing like a single raid on an alliance.

i did not avoid any question since i was never the one who attempted to answer it. i was stating that the humongous scale difference coupled with TPF publicly calling out IAA, were the reasons why this thread was probably not full of the moral outrage you seem to think it should be.

the fact that you fail to consider the serious difference in scale and what people actually called what Athens did, shows you are being willfully blind to it.

fact is, i never once attempted to justify what NEW did, you are the one who is stating i am doing that. what i was doing was simply stating the differences. stating differences by no means is justifying !@#$. once you run that through what seems to be an obviously thick skull, then you can attempt to state you are not twisting a damn thing i am saying, but since much of what you are basing your crap argument on, is your lie that i am "justifying" this, then no you cannot even attempt to state that you are not blatantly misinterpreting !@#$ Tyga. seriously, this is the most fail i have ever seen come from you, in fact, you usually never act like this. and the fact that you are attempting to so blatantly twist this !@#$ on me, well heh. whatever. no clue what i did to you to make it seem so personal to ya Tyga, but i am done.

say whatever you want, you are doing so already. if you wish to continue to lie go for it. i never once justified !@#$ Tyga, i simply stated the differences. here, i will give you an example.

OOC: Tyga- Hitler and Stalin both attempted genocide.

Doch- Technically Hitler only attempted genocide as he specifically targeted Jews (amongst others true but Jews mainly) where as Stalin was fairly indiscriminate in his choosings.

Tyga- zomg, Doch thinks Stalin is justified in his killings!!!!

Doch- wha??????? /end OOC

see, what you did was take my statement of facts/differences and turn them into something they were never meant to be simply because you would not even have an argument if you did not do so.

anyways, i am done with you Tyga. this argument you are resorting to is fail, crap and just pathetic. continue to lie, distort, and whatever about me and what i say.

edit: made an example that made more sense.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Dochartaigh

[rsoxbronco1]

Treatise on raiding/wars

That post is about to collapse in upon itself to become blackhole of text that nobody read.

[Sir Hobo]

long post is long

[mhawk]

seriously? ok, i will break it down then. what Athens did was akin to war, in fact most against what Athens did said it was in fact a CBless war and not just a raid. that is why there was such an outrage against Athens. i myself saw what Athens did as essentially a CBless war due to the fact that it was an alliance wide, organized hit on every or almost every nation in KoN. so if you still do not see a difference, then you are just willingly ignorant.

strawman at best since you have no idea how anyone would actually react. thus, no reason to bring NSO into this whatsoever.

actually again, stop putting words in my mouth. i mentioned ZDP fighting back as a reason NEW gave for not giving reps. not as a legit reason. never once did i say that and i would appreciate it if you would actually stick to what was said instead of continuing to put words in my mouth because that is the only way you have any actual argument against me.

and i again never said the actions were less. i stated that since i stopped decrying Athens when they went to the tables, why should i be an ACTUAL hypocrite and decry NEW while they are at the peace table. see, it is simple things like this that make it seem you are purposely acting ignorant Tyga. it is simple crap like you blatantly misinterpreting what was said or blatantly adding words where there were none, that makes it seem as if you know you have no leg to stand on and thus, resort to such childish tactics in order to continue an argument against me that has failed from the beginning. (see, i can do such crap too)

where are the hails? i see no hails over it except by NEW's allies, which to my knowledge, Athens/FoB had the same from their allies..... and again, since you are willfully ignoring the scale issue which to many made what Athens/FoB did a war and not a raid, then whatever. honestly you are just amusing me now as i find your tactics annoying but funny as they usually are reserved for those with less intelligence than you have Tyga. though i have always wondered what it would be to be like willfully blind myself towards something just so i could make an argument. and before you even attempt to state i am doing the same, i have acknowledged everything you have said, you are the one who has chosen to ignore the scale issue, which to many i would say is a serious difference- just because you do not find it serious, does not mean the reason lacks any substance.

again, you seem to think that lack of something means that everyone is okay with it. wow. just wow. i have not read many if any posts where people are telling NEW that they are awesome or that what they did was great. silence does not mean condoning, it just means that there are what TOP and IAA helping ZDP gain peace.... yeah, totally means that everyone is okey dokey with this raid Tyga. you got me, seriously just stop, this is getting pathetic.

really? you stated that you were outraged over the lack of moral outrage from everyone who decried Athens, then later said you were disgusted by everyone who continued (stating that everyone who decried Athens initially continued after they entered peace talks, which was false because i did not and i know others did not as well thus, at least one lie you spoke) being morally outraged during the peace talks.

thus, the fact that you want people to be morally outraged and decry NEW while they are in peace talks, makes you a hypocrite since your stance is people should not decry others in a peace talk. this is of course because you found it disgusting that people did so to Athens and since you are basing your entire argument on what people did or did not do to Athens as well as it seems how you felt or did not feel about Athens, then for the sake of consistency, i too am basing some of my argument on what you say about the Athens situation. this of course includes what you say about those who decried Athens.

thus, do to what you have actually said (and unlike you, me not putting words in your mouth), you are acting with double standards. or you just want the best of both worlds and should people have decried NEW during peace talks, you can come here and be morally outraged that people would stoop to acting like they did with Athens and decry NEW while NEW was in peace talks...... which by much of your argument, you are just looking to compare this to Athens in whatever way possible, ignoring facts, ignoring what i write half the time it seems, adding words to what i say, blatantly misinterpreting what i say, and so on and so forth. thus, it seems you only want to say what you say and have it be taken as gospel, when in fact, you are basically wrong about much of it.

even Athens has not compared this to what they did..... only you and you alone from what i can tell is comparing this to Athens.

gee, could that be because i was simply stating facts and not my opinions. oh gee Tyga could that just by golly be????? wait, that would make your argument invalid then, since you based much of your argument on the lie that what i said initially was my opinion, and not me stating facts about the differences between the two situations. well, i don't foresee you admitting that. but maybe you will surprise me.

except i also stated that "what NEW did was reprehensible" which kinda covers everything they did. as for why i did not becoming oh so morally outraged (wait, i just realized something, throughout all this, neither have you. you expect me and others to rail against NEW and you haven't..... oh sure you said their actions were reprehensible, but so have i, so i am just gonna pull a Tyga and ignore that.)

against the initial raid, if ZDP had no real issue with it, why should i? i have seen many alliances have members raid other alliances. initially NEW agreed with ZDP to keep the war 1v1. you want to know something, i will let you in on a little secret. when Athens/FoB hit KoN, the only reason they backed off was due to OWF pressure and mainly allies pressure. i bet from the way they were talking about might makes right and do something about it, had it not been for their allies or the OWF, had KoN asked for reps, they would have been laughed at. had KoN fought back at all, they would have been destroyed due to what Athens/FoB considered escalation (basically any retaliation if FoB has the same standards as Athens had in the tech raid policy they quoted back then).

so the fact that when ZDP went to NEW and NEW promised to keep it 1v1 is a dramatic improvement to the many 3v1 "raids" that KoN got hit with. honestly, you are amazing me with your inability to grasp simple facts at this moment Tyga.

all it was were facts, not excuses. just because you think that it is like Athens, does not mean it is. you have not provided any evidence whatsoever that i have not refuted to back up your claim.

you claim the act is the same, when in fact many claim what Athens did was not tech raiding but a war, which was why they were morally outraged.

you even stated i was correct in the scale being different (gee i wonder why that could be......... 1 raid vs 40 something on KoN who had an alliance of like 39............)

so yes, by the facts, what NEW did was far less than what Athens did. so why should there be this huge commotion over NEW raiding ZDP? especially when initially NEW responded in a way that was friggin agreeable to ZDP.

your argument has never had anything to stand on. your comparison is utter fail and only you seem to think it is worthy of comparison.

you have had to resort to twisting what i say, ignoring what i say, and crap tactics like that to even have a chance Tyga against what i have said.

seriously, not you are just being dumb and acting stupid. go back and reread what i said. go on. now tell me i did not state that one of NEW hitting ZDP wars was not done after the fact that said ZDP nation offensively hit 3 NEW nations. go on. oh wait, you can't. thus, as can be seen, this is the second time you have willfully ignored what i said. if you are gonna use what i say to attempt to support your argument, do not ignore the part and then continue to ignore the part that puts a hole in your argument. it makes you look ignorant and frankly at this point i am thinking you are just being ignorant on purpose. what was once annoyingly funny, you have turned into pathetic.

i wonder why...... "Your "differences" were not differences in the act that so appalled you a few weeks ago, merely the scale. Nothing you have said has shown me otherwise."

what you said to me. the only thing i can make of that is that i would have had to know that NEW would raid ZDP back when Athens hit KoN..... considering the fact that the differences i pointed out were actual differences. the scale issue is the most apparent to most i would assume except you.

but honestly most of what i said there was simply because i am tired of you blatantly ignoring, misinterpreting what i say, and crap like that, so i decided to do the same to you. except when you call me out on it, i acknowledge it.

you though, have continued to ignore part of what i say, continued to blatantly misinterpret what i say, and continue to resorting to crap tactics to attempt to salvage your fail argument. i am done with that. if you wish to debate like gentleman, then i am for that. if you wish to debate like a child, then you are on your own.

can't wait for you to state that my argument was lost and thus i just gave up.

actually, the first time i said something was reprehensible, it was the escalation. after that i said what NEW did was reprehensible. which kinda means all they did. this is what the 3rd time you have ignored that now..... but that is okay, i am getting used to that from you now.

actually you have. when i stated all i was stating was facts, you stated that those were my opinions and thus i was a hypocrite. when i stated that i cannot be a hypocrite since i am treating NEW as i treated Athens (did not decry Athens when they went to peace talks, did not decry NEW when they were in peace talks how the $%&@ is that double standards, only you it seems Tyga, only you....). it is not my fault that there was no previous thread where i could decry but you stated i was acting with double standards and twisted my words by saying they are were obfuscate, when i have no !@#$@#$ clue how they could be any more clear.....

you have ignored where i stated that i found NEW's actions reprehensible and only see the one statement i made where i said the escalation by NEW was reprehensible. in fact, you ignored the "I find what NEW did reprehensible" statement at least 3 times now, but of course you are not ignoring what i say Tyga, of course not....

i never eventually conceded !@#$. what i felt is what i felt from the beginning. so there is yet another twisting of my words.

what Athens did was commit war not raid. an organized alliance wide hit on another alliance is nothing like a single raid on an alliance.

i did not avoid any question since i was never the one who attempted to answer it. i was stating that the humongous scale difference coupled with TPF publicly calling out IAA, were the reasons why this thread was probably not full of the moral outrage you seem to think it should be.

the fact that you fail to consider the serious difference in scale and what people actually called what Athens did, shows you are being willfully blind to it.

fact is, i never once attempted to justify what NEW did, you are the one who is stating i am doing that. what i was doing was simply stating the differences. stating differences by no means is justifying !@#$. once you run that through what seems to be an obviously thick skull, then you can attempt to state you are not twisting a damn thing i am saying, but since much of what you are basing your crap argument on, is your lie that i am "justifying" this, then no you cannot even attempt to state that you are not blatantly misinterpreting !@#$ Tyga. seriously, this is the most fail i have ever seen come from you, in fact, you usually never act like this. and the fact that you are attempting to so blatantly twist this !@#$ on me, well heh. whatever. no clue what i did to you to make it seem so personal to ya Tyga, but i am done.

say whatever you want, you are doing so already. if you wish to continue to lie go for it. i never once justified !@#$ Tyga, i simply stated the differences. here, i will give you an example.

Tyga- The mile is equal to the kilometer.

Doch- No, actually the the mile is 1.6 times longer than the kilometer approximately.

Tyga- zomg, Doch likes the mile.

Doch- wha???????

see, what you did was take my statement of facts/differences and turn them into something they were never meant to be simply because you would not even have an argument if you did not do so.

anyways, i am done with you Tyga. this argument you are resorting to is fail, crap and just pathetic. continue to lie, distort, and whatever about me and what i say.

I believe this is the longest reply I've ever read to any one statement in my time here. Also glad the situation was resolved in less time than epic tyga vs do argument.