Zhadum reveals NPO information: organized logs

[ChairmanHal]

Hal, you bolded the wrong one. That's the MDP clause. The aggression one is this:

(emphasis mine)

Ok, bolded.

However, Clause C does not state that it is an aggression clause. One might logically conclude that military support does not have to be offered in case of an aggressive war, but certainly the implication over all in Section IV is that in case of war "we fight as a team" and inform people ahead of time when aggressive war will be engaged.

[Delta1212]

I simply can't believe - never have, never will - that the planning for the Karma war would be so inept. Believing that two allies who had recently been excluded from a bloc meeting, left said bloc and who weren't even told about the attacks would side with NPO and therefore willingly neutralize other allies with which they held stronger treaties, including the alliance of one of the Karma groups main voices, is a bit of a stretch, but MK and Fark falling where planned? You can't put that down to arrogance. Something smells fishy, and I'm not talking about the contents of Baldrick's apple crumble.

Actually, I only found out the specifics of what was going on as soon as I did (the Thursaday night everyone was dropping into peace mode rather than a few days later when actual negotiations started) because TORN went to MK and Vanguard looking for support/to keep them out respectively. The majority of what I knew that first day was courtesy of C&G.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Delta1212

[HeinousOne]

Who is Karma to tell NpO who they can or cannot aid?

Oh give me a break, as if NPO ever would have stood by and watched an alliance aid someone they were attacking while NPO was on top.

This is all just a stunt. It's a well played one, but it's still just a stunt. I wonder when the members of the Pacific will open their eyes and realize that they are just pawns, tools. Pacificans should head your 'warnings' and overthrow Moo and, to be honest, everyone IAC and up. They won't though, instead, they will use this to further marginalize those who question the way things are done and as an example of the cause of Pacifica.

The end result, the tools will keep on working, the Pacific will continue to act as it has for years, and the cult-like attitude being used to control membership will continue and prosper. What a joke.

Yet another hard working Ex-Pacifican who has had their eyes opened by being stepped on by the Pacifican Kings.

Would it be irony or serendipity to see Pacifica move into Frostbite's sphere of influence? Somehow I suspect a combination of both. Best of luck to all involved.

Not going to happen.

Too bad it took a losing war for you to realise all this.

Obviously you never had a problem with it when we were number 1

There were plenty of folks who were not happy with it while being number 1. I remember Necro to have been a hard worker for the Order during his time there. To have done all that and to have it all pretty much ruined by horrendous leadership....I would say he has definately earned the right to speak his mind.

I am a one of those you refer to as a "tool" I defy you to point out one instance where I have been controlled by a cult like attitude. In fact I find being referred to as a tool rather dickish.

You are new, why are you thinking his words apply to you? Yes, you are Pacifican now but not for very long.

You are pathetic.

As for Ursarker: why don't we wait until all the evidence comes out before jumping to conclusions here. If what I've seen is all he's done, it's a farcry from being a spy.

You are pathetic for thinking that you can change things on the inside by continuing to slave away for the Kings.

I quite agree.

Why ex members seem to think leaving give them a carte blanche to slag off the alliance which kept them, protected their nations, and gave them so much is still a mystery to me.

I am an ex member and I do believe I have the right to slag off the alliance that relied on me to be part of five wars yet when I called out it's obvious future enemies I was the one struck down by the paranoid FA team that was feeling the after affects of its horrible policies.

Some of us can move on without feeling the need to slate our previous alliance....

Some folks still give a damn about their ex alliance and wish better for its current inhabitants. It is nice that you are able to so easily walk away and not give a damn, congratulations.

#

Look, I owe them nothing but you can GTFO. You left during a war. After three years you don't think I have some opinions on them?

Kind of like the people that wanted to leave during that hard and trying time that was the Jarheads war? Why should a nation stay in an alliance when the leadership is so out of touch with reality that they lead the alliance into such a horrible position? If the leadership hadn't been so self-serving then perhaps nation leaders like LoD wouldn't have had to show their displeasure with how their nations were being led off to war in such a terrible fashion with the greatest showing of dissent possible. A nation's vote of confidence in the leadership of an alliance is by remaining within it.

It is one thing for a nation to leave an alliance when that alliance has been attacked. NPO was the aggressor and he didn't agree with such aggression. Do you really not understand that difference? My god, NPO internal propaganda is still going strong.

So many others have as well, and that is why they continue to slave away, plugging in numbers, sending out pms, and rearranging data. They think to themselves, "Someday, if I just keep working really hard, I'll become an IO or a member of IAC, and then I can make some real change to this alliance." So they toil and toil, and spend more time working in one day than there counterparts in other alliances do in a week, and never move up. Friends of the IO's, IAC, and Moo join and are members of those prized groups in a week, a month.

-----

So yes, I am pathetic. Pathetic for leaving during a war in which I fought back from ZI not once, but twice. Pathetic for abandoning my comrades, who were willing to drop my friendship over an AA change. Pathetic for opening my eyes and realizing that for every hour I spent on the cause of the Pacific, nothing good came of it, and that for every hour I would spend elsewhere, real things would happen, real decisions would be made, and I wouldn't live frustrated with my inability to be "good enough" for an IO or an IAC position, I could live enjoying what I did as a member of this community.

Don't worry about what those NPO talking heads are saying to you. I remember how much work you used to put in. I am sorry that you feel it was all for nothing but it wasn't. Your story matters Necro.

[Elendil old]

I think you fail to understand the gravity of the accusation and therefore the reason why it would not be made lightly. If you do not understand why I am not actually bluffing over something so serious then I suggest you come and play poker with me.... all Aces in my hand pal (5 of them)

Yea well I have a Straight Flush

Edited September 29, 2009 by Elendil

[ChairmanHal]

I simply can't believe - never have, never will - that the planning for the Karma war would be so inept. Believing that two allies who had recently been excluded from a bloc meeting, left said bloc and who weren't even told about the attacks would side with NPO and therefore willingly neutralize other allies with which they held stronger treaties, including the alliance of one of the Karma groups main voices, is a bit of a stretch, but MK and Fark falling where planned? You can't put that down to arrogance. Something smells fishy, and I'm not talking about the contents of Baldrick's apple crumble.

What are your specific questions? I'm not sure what you are finding fishy.

[KingEsus]

I am an ex member and I do believe I have the right to slag off the alliance that relied on me to be part of five wars yet when I called out it's obvious future enemies I was the one struck down by the paranoid FA team that was feeling the after affects of its horrible policies.

I am not an apologist.

Some folks still give a damn about their ex alliance and wish better for its current inhabitants. It is nice that you are able to so easily walk away and not give a damn, congratulations.

That is utter !@#$%^&*. It took months to finally make this decision. I care very deeply for my ex-comrades. Please don't insinuate this was easy. I just don't think calling them out in public helps anyone at all.

Kind of like the people that wanted to leave during that hard and trying time that was the Jarheads war? Why should a nation stay in an alliance when the leadership is so out of touch with reality that they lead the alliance into such a horrible position? If the leadership hadn't been so self-serving then perhaps nation leaders like LoD wouldn't have had to show their displeasure with how their nations were being led off to war in such a terrible fashion with the greatest showing of dissent possible. A nation's vote of confidence in the leadership of an alliance is by remaining within it.

It is one thing for a nation to leave an alliance when that alliance has been attacked. NPO was the aggressor and he didn't agree with such aggression. Do you really not understand that difference? My god, NPO internal propaganda is still going strong.

Entirely different. I disagreed with the response to those who left at that point. Not lest from the BR who poured such vitriol on resignation posts. But you cant spend x years in an alliance and just leave when they start to lose. The Karma war was different. Victory during Jarheads was not in doubt.

Yes of course I understand. You think I agreed? I said as much, that the egos of the IO's afore referred to as 'gods' had lead us to where we where. Unfortunately TWIP had finished before that particularly controversial post was made and consigned into the chasm. The NPO should not change unless they want to. It's not up to you.

[silentkiller]

So many others have as well, and that is why they continue to slave away, plugging in numbers, sending out pms, and rearranging data. They think to themselves, "Someday, if I just keep working really hard, I'll become an IO or a member of IAC, and then I can make some real change to this alliance." So they toil and toil, and spend more time working in one day than there counterparts in other alliances do in a week, and never move up. Friends of the IO's, IAC, and Moo join and are members of those prized groups in a week, a month.

-----

So yes, I am pathetic. Pathetic for leaving during a war in which I fought back from ZI not once, but twice. Pathetic for abandoning my comrades, who were willing to drop my friendship over an AA change. Pathetic for opening my eyes and realizing that for every hour I spent on the cause of the Pacific, nothing good came of it, and that for every hour I would spend elsewhere, real things would happen, real decisions would be made, and I wouldn't live frustrated with my inability to be "good enough" for an IO or an IAC position, I could live enjoying what I did as a member of this community.

oh please, you should know that I didnt give a damn which alliance you joined I would have considered you a friend, yes some were angry as you had left during a war and other were angry when you joined an alliance you had just announced a few weeks ago you would never join but I am sure most people didnt care where you went either. and then you come on the boards bash us and play the victim card? yeah tell me how that works out for you.

Edited September 29, 2009 by silentkiller

[HeinousOne]

I am not an apologist.

That is utter !@#$%^&*. It took months to finally make this decision. I care very deeply for my ex-comrades. Please don't insinuate this was easy. I just don't think calling them out in public helps anyone at all.

I will not insinuate anything when you realize that some folks feel differently then you in how to approach a situation they care about.

Entirely different. I disagreed with the response to those who left at that point. Not lest from the BR who poured such vitriol on resignation posts. But you cant spend x years in an alliance and just leave when they start to lose. The Karma war was different. Victory during Jarheads was not in doubt.

Yes of course I understand. You think I agreed? I said as much, that the egos of the IO's afore referred to as 'gods' had lead us to where we where. Unfortunately TWIP had finished before that particularly controversial post was made and consigned into the chasm. The NPO should not change unless they want to. It's not up to you.

So, we have the Karma War that was indeed started in part by NPO along with their "good buddies" TORN and Mhawk and it was started supposedly because they were spied upon? Yet on the other hand Moo himself has stated that everyone accepts information that is just given. That is all that the OV member did really yet NPO Kings started the greatest of the Great Wars over it. Now we see possible spying by NPO which if true would mean they are absolute hypocrites at the top. I would say being led into a horrible war for reasons that are at best hypocritical, is reason enough to say "Enough, you no longer are allowed to use my nation for your own gain".

By no means have I ever said NPO changing is up to me. It is up to the BR actually. The Kings at the top will not change things in a manner that weakens their own power. If the BR members think such is going to happen without them making it happen then they are pretty much just sheep and they deserve the system as it is as well as the continued results from that style of leadership.

[Ogaden]

That is utter !@#$%^&*. It took months to finally make this decision. I care very deeply for my ex-comrades. Please don't insinuate this was easy. I just don't think calling them out in public helps anyone at all.

Entirely different. I disagreed with the response to those who left at that point. Not lest from the BR who poured such vitriol on resignation posts. But you cant spend x years in an alliance and just leave when they start to lose. The Karma war was different. Victory during Jarheads was not in doubt.

Yes of course I understand. You think I agreed? I said as much, that the egos of the IO's afore referred to as 'gods' had lead us to where we where. Unfortunately TWIP had finished before that particularly controversial post was made and consigned into the chasm. The NPO should not change unless they want to. It's not up to you.

I know where you're coming from, I still care for many of those I left behind. Like you I came to see that nothing would ever change, and my sacrifices had done nothing to protect my comrades, they had only been made to protect the position and power of the "inner NPO".

The sad reality is that it matters not what your friends that you left behind think. They will some day be ordered to destroy you and they will obey. That's the reality.

[Mussolandia]

As opposed to you, Dahl, who basically embarrassed the NPO every time you spoke until they got tired of your idiocy?

[Fireandthepassion]

Who is Karma to tell NpO who they can or cannot aid?

Who was NPO to tell people not to aid ex-FAN nations on a list that wasn't ever really made public while NPO was still at war with FAN?

Don't try to spin this because at least Karma wasn't looking to pummel people down over it.

[Ogaden]

As opposed to you, Dahl, who basically embarrassed the NPO every time you spoke until they got tired of your idiocy?

Looks like my brand of idiocy has become fashionable these days.

[Venizelos]

if A fights B, and C gives guns to B, C is practically fighting A.

[TypoNinja]

Who is Karma to tell NpO who they can or cannot aid?

Are we seriously arguing over something as basic as not aiding people at war? Seriously. You outta feel pretty stupid over this one.

[Azaghul]

I am not an apologist.

That is utter !@#$%^&*. It took months to finally make this decision. I care very deeply for my ex-comrades. Please don't insinuate this was easy. I just don't think calling them out in public helps anyone at all.

Entirely different. I disagreed with the response to those who left at that point. Not lest from the BR who poured such vitriol on resignation posts. But you cant spend x years in an alliance and just leave when they start to lose. The Karma war was different. Victory during Jarheads was not in doubt.

Yes of course I understand. You think I agreed? I said as much, that the egos of the IO's afore referred to as 'gods' had lead us to where we where. Unfortunately TWIP had finished before that particularly controversial post was made and consigned into the chasm. The NPO should not change unless they want to. It's not up to you.

LoD left many weeks into the war because he was unhappy and not to save his nation, which he had already fought to ZI with and it had been clear for a while that NPO was gonna loose.

[jerdge]

To be fair, TOP/MHA had confirmed that they were leaving Q before said meeting and was partially a cause of that meeting.

Edit: Or, if my memory is failing me, it was the confirmation about the "Hangout" bloc. I can't remember which for the life of me.

It's no secret that the MHA had been talking about leaving Q/remaining for a lot of time (we go at TOP speed sometimes), but we weren't yet decided when the "sekrit meeting" happened. I honestly think that we would have left anyway, but that event almost certainly "helped" us to decide about it. We weren't going to delete the individual treaty with the NPO, anyway.

I also believe that even our continued participation in tC wouldn't have changed much of where we eventually stood, as that block was a MDP, not a MADP. And the Order at the End of the Universe was representing our relationship with the NPO much better than Q, anyway.

[Venizelos]

The defensive treaties we had at the time of the GATO-1v war consisted of: IAA, CSN, and CPCN, I think. We had just signed a friendship treaty with NpO, and I thought a PIAT with Invicta but Haf said it was a NAP. We had lots of smaller treaties, but our only MDP's had been our ferocitas brothers. I still consider IAA and CSN to be the most honorable alliances on Bob, and I wish we still had close relations with CSN.

you can check which ones got cancelled here

ODP with Legion?

[Gopherbashi]

It's no secret that the MHA had been talking about leaving Q/remaining for a lot of time (we go at TOP speed sometimes), but we weren't yet decided when the "sekrit meeting" happened. I honestly think that we would have left anyway, but that event almost certainly "helped" us to decide about it. We weren't going to delete the individual treaty with the NPO, anyway.

I also believe that even our continued participation in tC wouldn't have changed much of where we eventually stood, as that block was a MDP, not a MADP. And the Order at the End of the Universe was representing our relationship with the NPO much better than Q, anyway.

I do believe that the Mobius Accords had a supremacy clause in them. Not sure how that related to anything else you had.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Gopherbashi

[Homura]

So many others have as well, and that is why they continue to slave away, plugging in numbers, sending out pms, and rearranging data. They think to themselves, "Someday, if I just keep working really hard, I'll become an IO or a member of IAC, and then I can make some real change to this alliance." So they toil and toil, and spend more time working in one day than there counterparts in other alliances do in a week, and never move up. Friends of the IO's, IAC, and Moo join and are members of those prized groups in a week, a month.

Meh...I always thought you had a lot of potential. Getting to be Council or IAC or IO doesn't really mean you can change anything either, but still, the pervasive loss of talent to preserve the internal status quo hurts Pacifica's ability to be competitive. They used to say Pacifica was the best alliance because it had all the best minds in the world running it, and that was true. Whether it's true now is something Pacific leadership needs to ask themselves, and answer honestly. No man is above the Order.

[janax]

I do believe that the Mobius Accords had a supremacy clause in them. Not sure how that related to anything else you had.

Supremacy clause yes, but still an MDoAP, not MADP. NPO was still the aggressor. No requirement to participate. Either way, that can be e-lawyered all day.

[Necromancer V4L]

Meh...I always thought you had a lot of potential. Getting to be Council or IAC or IO doesn't really mean you can change anything either, but still, the pervasive loss of talent to preserve the internal status quo hurts Pacifica's ability to be competitive. They used to say Pacifica was the best alliance because it had all the best minds in the world running it, and that was true. Whether it's true now is something Pacific leadership needs to ask themselves, and answer honestly. No man is above the Order.

I still have that same potential, just as you still have yours. We're just applying that potential in different places, with better results. Other than that, not much to say. You speak true, I say thankya.

[Matthew Conrad]

#

Look, I owe them nothing but you can GTFO. You left during a war. After three years you don't think I have some opinions on them?

When he joined us, his nation was in shambles. In fact, it took several rounds of full aid slots to even get his nation out of bill lock. His reason for leaving was to join some of his friends and had nothing to do with saving his nation.

[Lord Brendan]

Yea well I have a Straight Flush

Five of a kind beats a straight flush.

[crawlerbot]

"We took out VE because, long and short, GGA asked us to"

EPIC stupid move of the game^

'nuff said.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

VE- Killed because "lol GGA told us to." <----We followed an ally, but of course this is a justification only for other alliances and not NPO

Umm nope. Isnt a justification for anyone, although in some cases it could be a mitigating circumstance. But in this one? GGA was a full-on puppet state, the picture of them coming up with an original idea is hard to credit. More likely a hint was dropped somewhere and echoed back in the form of a request. Regardless, Pacifica was the dominant partner, and perfectly capable of saying no.

And trust me, I want nothing from you. I don't really think it earned us too much outside of pride in ourselves. The whole "we were honorable and followed our treaties" thing is passe in today's political landscape for many of the assorted peanut gallery. So I really don't care for their opinion.

The thing is, you really seem to have bought the propaganda here for the past 3 years that following doing whatever your treaty says is the one and only milesign of honour. It isnt, it never was, it's an absurdity that only ever had support because it was a useful tool of hegemony. Really being honourable requires facing up to hard decisions and taking responsibility for your choices, not running away from that by pretending treaties are some kind of deus ex machina that just magically appear from nowhere and absolve you of all responsibility.

Ok, bolded.

However, Clause C does not state that it is an aggression clause. One might logically conclude that military support does not have to be offered in case of an aggressive war, but certainly the implication over all in Section IV is that in case of war "we fight as a team" and inform people ahead of time when aggressive war will be engaged.

Sure. But the actual wording appeared carefully crafted to leave that only implied, and leave Pacifica the option to interpret it the other way.

I'm sure in this imaginary world where the GGA *alone* wanted to kill VE and thought they could strongarm Pacifica into backing them in a war Pacifica did NOT want themselves Pacifican leadership would not have been shy about yanking the leash a bit.