Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Francesca]

"The first thing that comes to mind would be VietFAN."

The first post you've made I agree with. NPO have acted in a disgusting way towards some alliances, like FAN. However, in offering NPO these terms, we are only becoming as bad as they were.

[R&R-Viking]

You mean the ones we finally gave white peace?

Yes, that totally wasn't a PR move.

-e A PR move much like claiming NPO dropped ZI lists. Yes, you did. In May. The war started in April.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Viking

[Haflinger]

I would like for it to be known that, had I not worked to assemble surrender terms in the first place, that NPO would be in a state of indefinite war from a significant subset of the alliances attacking them. I'm well aware that these terms are harsh, as harsh as any that have ever been given. I wish I had the authority to negotiate all on my own, so that we could arrive at a set of terms that was acceptable to everyone. But I don't. I am but one leader of 18 alliances that are engaged with NPO, and the wishes of the many, not the one, rule the day. I have been a mouthpiece, and a negotiator, and but one leader of 18 sovereign alliances, all of whom have had their own demands, their own wishes, and their own ideas.

I know, Londo.

For the NPO to pin the blame on me for this situation or these terms is the height of foolishness.

Mary already said that they didn't mean to do that, and apologized for the implication in the OP that you were to blame.

2) You lost Great War 1. The alliance called LUE let you off with a set of apologies and one resignation. You've done everything to crush anyone that disagrees with you while you were on top, including the alliances that represented the other side of the polarity multiple times.

And Karma rejected 3K technology and 8 billion in reps. It's not comparable.

Since GATO's viceroy is unworthy of being listed in a list of Pacifican crimes, would you be willing to have your terms commuted to a viceroy instead since they really aren't so bad?

Oh wait viceroys are so bad they had to be banned by the game's ToS. Heh.

Actually, they weren't. You can appoint viceroys, you just can't insist they be given admin access to other people's forums.

*Sighs*

Am I the only one thinking the Citadel is the major winner in all of this?

Nope. Longer the NPO fights, better off Citadel is.

[Proxian Empire]

You mean the ones we waited 2 years to give peace and consistently demanded they come out of peace mode or they would not receive peace, yet now we complain about the same 'peace mode' term, and only gave peace because we were trying to win some good PR when things were looking bad?

Yes that's exactly the war he was referring to .

[Francesca]

Yes, that totally wasn't a PR move.

And totally after like a year of war.

[TheThirdMark]

Karma deserve some credit too for the crappy terms. Without that there would be no thread.

Lol.

Without the NPO's actions in the past there would be no Karma and there would be no Thread.

[shahenshah]

Karma remnants, do not disown the public like we in Hegemony did once upon a time, we payed the price and Im speaking from the lesson learned. You have your victory, you have your reps, you have your opponents humbled and its on the table for you to pick up and celebrate. I dont know if there is a term called Sore-winners, English is not my native language, but ya, point made.

Edited June 13, 2009 by shahenshah

[JayOvfEnnay]

You mean the ones we finally gave white peace?

Maybe he does, but I mean the ones who you attacked, gave peace terms to, broke a NAP by attacking them again during peace terms, kept in eternal warfare for years, and only gave peace to on account of maybe... just maybe getting some of that long lost PR back in time for the beatdown.

[Franz Ferdinand]

Lol.

Without the NPO's actions in the past there would be no Karma and there would be no Thread.

"Yet if someone invented a time machine, if such a thing is possible, nothing would change, and the same path would be followed."

[Vilien]

You'll find no sympathy here. If these terms are far worse than your own past actions, then accept a viceroyalty, pay us 6/7ths of your tech, and expel your upper leadership so we can drive them from the game with eternal ZI. Give me a !@#$@#$ break.

[lonewolfe2015]

Ok... I am going to be pretty blatant here since I'm not involved but also have friends involved here and WILL NOT read 63+ pages (if its more at the time of posting)

But, why can't people come to even the slightest level of agreement?

We all know how NPO rolls now, and everyone came together to stop it once, there is no reason it can't happen again if they tried the same thing. These are REAL people in NPO that we are acting like they are monsters. Just because their government lead the alliance astray does not mean you break their backs and ruin their fun like NPO once might have done to you. I don't want to see white peace, but I do not want to see NPO unable to change their ways because they are a sanctioned tech farm for eternity.

You have to remember this is a game played by real people... not everyone on the other side happen to be bad, no matter your past history. In fact, put that aside during these considerations. It's just going to make things worse when you try and make them pay for every action they took in the past on top of this war.

[Sithis]

Today we walk down a different path than that of yesterday; the rescinding of the Moldavi Doctrine is but one step in that direction.

Having finally reached an agreement among themselves, we were presented with terms of surrender by Londo Mollari of Athens. These terms contained much that we expected: political and diplomatic concessions such as the rescinding of both the Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines

You state that you are rescinding both the Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines due to personal reflection and seeing yourself in a new light, but then you go on to say that this reflection is part of your surrender terms. Now which is it? Is it a sincere self-realization that the doctrines were wrong, or just something you were forced to say?

[Zeta Defender]

Yes, that totally wasn't a PR move.

-e A PR move much like claiming NPO dropped ZI lists. Yes, you did. In May. The war started in April.

We haven't practiced PZI in months as for ZI itself, I did not know that any form of ZI was against CN terms of politics now. I thought it referred mainly to EZI and to some reaches PZI.

[deth2munkies]

NPO: The perception of you as the leader of the hegemony has lead to the opposing forces wishing to hamstring your capacity to reassume that role after this war. Looking at the massive tech reparations you demanded from the Mushroom Kingdom and the New Polar Order last war, then how quickly they were able to execute them was a concern in their eyes: even with massive tech reparations, it would not slow down the recovery and possible reassumption of your role. To compound that, you have a good...what was it? 1/2 or 1/3 of your NS in peace mode, which hearkens back to VietFAN and other conflicts in which "cowards" as you labeled them, ran to peace mode to survive overwhelming force. All of this compounded makes these terms expected and fair in the eyes of those offering them and the eyes of most you have wronged. You should not expect any less and should take the terms or continue to negotiate if you ever want peace.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

Not everything is a PR move... sometimes people genuinely get the hint and change.. but what can I say? You all know us in and out.. even the ones that have barely been around a year.. barely posted. (Well, at least here. in OWF)

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[kingzog]

Seeing the same arguments parroted over and over is getting tiresome, so I'll make a few final comments and resume playing the role of spectator.

You have shown us nothing but bad faith.

....says the person whose alliance declared war during peace negotiations.

Karma had a golden opportunity to show the CN community how to win gracefully. To change the mindset of the big bad wolf (the NPO). Can you imagine if after all the carnage of this war Karma gave the NPO white peace? It would have been a huge PR victory for Karma.

Because as we all know, the last time the NPO was let off easily, it worked out so well for their opponents.

This EZI crud people keep dragging up... Since I'm new, please document specific cases.

All I hear is EZI! EBILS!

Who? When? Details and photographic evidence, or it didn't happen.

The accusation alone doesn't hold water, in my eyes.

Hello, my name is kingzog. If you ask around, I do believe you'll find enough people to confirm my having been placed on the NPO's EZI list.

If not:

/me waits for the inevitable "That means nothing without some context."

Having been privy to the peace discussions, I can say that Emperor Revenge himself sat in on those peace talks for the Coalition side and denied Polaris's requests to remove the aid restrictions, telling us that we deserved that term for keeping our bank nations in peace mode (a tactic we learned from them). While we paid no aid to Pacifica, they can take partial credit in the creation of those terms and for making it acceptable to limit nation re-building post war.

Furthermore, and as many current and former NpO members told me last night, the claim that the NPO shipped "massive amounts of aid" to Polaris after that war is a flat-out lie.

If you want principles:

Why I won't desert the Pacifican brothers who have helped me build and grow since my 4th day of CN:

John 3:16/John 15:13

The first one, which I have had memorized since I was a small child (3-16 is my birthday) might be relevant if Moo claimed to be the creator of the universe or the savior of mankind.

....trying to pin the war on the NPO alone will not work with me because there's just no evidence to support either side. It was a mutual war. My understanding is NPO still wanted to negotiate ....

Really? REALLY???

From blasphemy to stupidity in only eight minutes. Surely some kind of record.

And with that, I would like to thank the various ill-informed NPO members for posting here, along with the Pacifican leadership for encouraging them to do so.

In however many pages this thread will have gotten to by the time I click 'Add Reply' I have gone from privately thinking "Those terms are a bit much" to "Those terms are a good start." I look forward to watching you continue your whimpering as you are ground to dust.^* It has been a very long time coming.

As Stumpy put it earlier and as others have repeated:

Hey Moo, remember when you asked TDSM8 to pay more reps than we had? Remember when you changing the terms and holding us demilitarized for 6 months killed our alliance? Remember when you asked Athens for 6/7 of their tech? Remember when you held GATO in a viceroy for a year? Remember when you perma warred FAN? Remember all the people you forced out of this game? Remember all the homes you destroyed? Shut the $%&@ up. You are playing a pity boat when you deserve none. Im so sick of you guys trying to act like you deserve any better than this.

In the spirit of repeating something until one gets an answer, I'm going to do something odd (for me, at least) and repeat myself:

I have no interest in resolving my EZI status with the NPO.

You want me? Come and get me.

Simple as that.

kingzog: Come, Pacifica, see for yourself. From here, you will witness the final destruction of your Alliance and the end of your insignificant Hegemony.

[The NPO's eyes go to their 'Declare War' button]

kingzog: You want this, don't you? The hate is swelling in you now. Take your pixelated weapon. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger.

Hmmm....I think I'm beginning to understand why so many Star Wars-themed alliances have popped up in recent times. That was a lot of fun to type out.

* - Does not apply to other alliances fighting on the NPO side, who at this point have earned the right to walk away free and with their heads held high.

EDIT:

Apparently many missed our announcement with our May Report that our ZI list was cleared. We have no PZI lists, or even a ZI list; we never practiced what many call EZI.

Wow. How could I miss this clunker in the OP?

Moo, you're a liar.

Edited June 13, 2009 by kingzog

[gfloyd2002]

63 pages read, phew.

There seems to remain two main problems after all these posts: First, the claim that it is not possible to get 90% of the remaining peace mode nations into war. I haven't read (or I don't recall after a brain-frying 63 pages) an explanation of how NPO is expected to comply with this, and it seems unreasonable to expect in any alliance to have that level of activity, making the other terms moot. Second, the concern that the 2 weeks of war against the high NS nations wouldn't start to tick off until the 90% was reached, meaning that those responsive nations who are expected to pay the tech reps will be at war for longer than 2 weeks. Again, I don't recall a good discussion of this issue either.

I do not post as a criticism, but to note what appears to be the sticking points for which there should be doable negotiable solutions. Best of luck to all involved.

[Zeta Defender]

You state that you are rescinding both the Moldavi and Revenge Doctrines due to personal reflection and seeing yourself in a new light, but then you go on to say that this reflection is part of your surrender terms. Now which is it? Is it a sincere self-realization that the doctrines were wrong, or just something you were forced to say?

Read the OP, we removed the Moldavi Doctrine. Karma in the terms presented to the NPO wanted us to destroy both doctrines. We will maintain the Revenge Doctrine which still states that Red will not be tech raided. Unless you are telling me you think tech raiding should be allowed and no one can't offer to protect the few who want to play this game without politics and like red as their color?

[Angrator]

Two wrongs do *not* make a right. And I hate to think what you had in mind....

Open up the jails everyone. Fran is coming to town.

Fran you're a cool person, but I disagree with you almost 100% on this issue.

[martinius the great]

NPO might be imperialist and blah blah blah, but these terms are really bad and , you know, dishonorable. They deserve better terms; Because if you give them harsh terms just as they used to give others, you'll be no better than them.

[Melchior]

I must admit that TrotskysRevenge have taken a grand step towards mutual peace, and Karma ought to recognise it.

[Vilien]

Not everything is a PR move... sometimes people genuinely get the hint and change.. but what can I say? You all know us in and out.. even the ones that have barely been around a year.. barely posted. (Well, at least here. in OWF)

It took devastation in a war and alliances popping up left and right on the red sphere for you to "change your mind". It is incredibly transparent as to why you've done this.

[R&R-Viking]

We haven't practiced PZI in months as for ZI itself, I did not know that any form of ZI was against CN terms of politics now. I thought it referred mainly to EZI and to some reaches PZI.

I'm not saying the ZI lists are wrong, I'm saying that maintaining them for a very long time and discarding them in the face of mounting political discourse is not really a benevolent gesture, or good PR.

[Alterego]

Lol.

Without the NPO's actions in the past there would be no Karma and there would be no Thread.

Without Karmas self appointment to the post of getting revenge on everyone else's behalf, but acting like tyrants and keeping all the money for themselves...yada yada yada

[Maelstrom Vortex]

QUOTE (Maelstrom Vortex @ Jun 13 2009, 09:12 AM) *

If you want principles:

Why I won't desert the Pacifican brothers who have helped me build and grow since my 4th day of CN:

John 3:16/John 15:13

The first one, which I have had memorized since I was a small child (3-16 is my birthday) might be relevant if Moo claimed to be the creator of the universe or the savior of mankind.

QUOTE (Maelstrom Vortex @ Jun 13 2009, 09:20 AM) *

....trying to pin the war on the NPO alone will not work with me because there's just no evidence to support either side. It was a mutual war. My understanding is NPO still wanted to negotiate ....

Really? REALLY??? blink.gif

From blasphemy to stupidity in only eight minutes. Surely some kind of record.

No Blasphemy. I follow example.. and not Moo's. No blasphemy. And not stupidity. I just don't believe everything everyone posts on these forums and I know if I were in that position I'd still be trying to negotiate a peaceful solution. Do you think we would sanely want a war against forces multiple magnitudes larger than ourselves? I'm thinking your Faux anger is little more than propaganda. My words are genuine.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex