Announcement from VE, AZTEC, ARES, and MCXA

[prandgatriarch]

I have some questions regarding the terms.

8) MCXA has a total of 72 hours to comply with the surrender terms. If MCXA is unable to comply within the stipulated period, then the state of war shall resume between said alliances. During this period, there shall exist a state of ceasefire between MCXA and her attackers. Nations will be offered peace only after they have complied with the surrender terms mentioned in 2) and 3).

In that clause, does "her attackers" also account for nations at war with MCXA that are not in an alliance?

12) All nations and alliances with which the MCXA is at war are released by the MCXA with white peace. This includes individuals on ZI, PZI, and EZI lists, as well as any alliances the MCXA may have conflict with (including FAN and VOX).

Same here. Does "all nations" also pertain to nations not in an alliance?

After learning of the Karma War, I began attacking MCXA nations, which I held a grudge with, but I don't belong to an alliance. I refuse to consider my involvement in this war to be opportunistic, as my intentions were to inflict as much damage to MCXA during the duration of this war, much to my own losses.

After this treaty was signed, one MCXA member messeged me with a threat that now the war is over, MCXA will ZI my nation. This MCXA member demanded surrender with restitution of 100 tech and 3,000,000 cash, which is well beyond the ability of my nation with a population less than 10,000. After a few hours from this theat, another MCXA member declared war and started attacking my nation.

So my primary interest in this treaty is whether the terms are exclusive to alliance-affliated nations, or if they equally apply to all nations that participated in this war against MCXA.

Edited May 7, 2009 by prandgatriarch

[TheEraser]

I'm confident that most everyone would agree that TDSM8 received permanently damaging terms in hindsight and that no alliance its size should have to go through them again. This treaty in general offers moderate terms in relation to previous wars. In comparison to the terms given to other alliances in this war however, they are the worst by far. That is the main bone of contention as it were.

And yes it is called the "karma war" and the wheel doesn't stop spinning.

Simply saying they're the worst is sort of silly because no major players have really resigned. the closest to a major player there is thats surrendered is NATO, being a Q member during the war. So, Naturally MCXA's will be the worst, so far.

if it makes you feel better, it probably won't, by the time this is over i think people will look on the MCXA terms and consider them some of, if not THE, lighest terms that were not white peace.

[shahenshah]

You missed:

5. Association with NpO before its due were paid.

6. Leaving them and NOT getting thier dues paid.

Ah ok! then we can add one more Karma alliance to the fray. Thank you for reinforcing the point.

They are based on MCXA's position in the Continuum.

This. Thank you Tyga for being clear about it. People now need to stop discussing what are the reps based on or whether they are lenient or not.

We need to now discuss how many autographs MCXA are giving out tonight!

MCXA owes reps because it chained its treaties to defend the aggressive actions of NPO

But no! How can this be? MCXA is part of Coward coalition.

Edited May 7, 2009 by shahenshah

[bbrownso]

unless i am mistaken you were calling for MCXA's head for a long while after the SPW. now terms such as those imposed on Polaris after such a destructive war is harsh and bad. Fact is, MCXA did not pay for that tech. they also got double the amount by almost a 20th of the amount of nations. MCXA has 400 members who can give up some tech. that does not hinder rebuilding in the least when each member needs only send 25 tech to pay the entire reps off. I am sorry but seriously, 25 tech per member is not going to be so bad that it takes MCXA months to pay it off and many more months to make up for that 25 tech that each of their members had to give up..........

if you seriously think that, then you are a hypocrite as you have no idea what harsh terms are and are only keeping true to berating the winning side just to hear yourself speak.

That seems to be a nice slippery slope to start rationalizing with. How long until it's "only" 100 tech per member or "only" 500 tech per member? This is what all those that oppose the Karma movement were waiting to see. How much will NPO/TPF/any "leading" hegemony alliance pay (if they get peace for awhile anyways)?

[King Srqt]

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

these are not harsh terms, and if you are trying to say they are your biased point of view is laughable. Since you are obviously unwilling to drop biases from your past identity why don't you inform us all of who is behind the disguise of kevin Cash

OOC: If you are going to re roll and start over then start over if you are going to bring past knowledge into the game than you should not pretend to play a new character.

[Doug Falkner]

oh come on. Are you really serious you had no idea. Anyone who was reading OWF could see the tensions building for the last 3 months or more. War was inevitable.

Really we had no idea. We've been a bit preoccupied with more internal affairs. It happened that we had elections immediately prior to the war and with elections comes a lot of stuff internally to pay attention to. I think we must not have been paying as close attention to the OWF as we perhaps should.

That's not to say we weren't aware of tensions, we just weren't aware they were going to flare up so immediately.

[ChairmanHal]

ummm.... those that left to become Karma POW's are now under those terms anyway, and are subject to those terms until stated otherwise. Personally I would assume that anyone surrendering under the Karma POW AA is probably going to be under that AA until the end of this war, not just when their former alliances get peace.

Partially incorrect. When NATO surrendered, all the NATO members that were in the Karma POW camp were allowed to return to NATO.

[AirMe]

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

i think it's mildly amusing that you think people on the same side of a conflict can't have differences of opinions.

[bzelger]

I would also like you to consider the possibility of a larger picture. Let's say that cyberverse politics devolve into two factions split largely the way they are now and there are periodic wars where the victory changes hands each time. If the one faction demands tens of thousands of tech each time, taken preferentially from top tier nations among other punitive and degrading terms while the other side grants white peace each time, an outside observer would be forced to conclude that the latter party were morons.

With regards to the point that many Karma alliances have also accepted large reparations, notably in the last major war, I reiterate that this is not about bitter vengeance. In my opinion, any alliance with a genuine interest in atonement and absolution should be granted it without a cleansing by fire. Someone interested in distancing themselves from the source of the problem once they recognized it for what it was, as Gre did early and others followed, ought to be commended, or at least paradoned. Had MCXA followed suit and ceased to support the group that has now again brought the world to war through senseless aggression, then they would have no bills due in my book. As they remained in place, directly propping up the parties that instigated this war, I see no reason for them to get off free.

Edited May 7, 2009 by bzelger

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

These aren't harsh terms.

Again: if they were harsh, MCXA would be paying out tech by the hundreds of thousands, mostly from their top nations/peace mode nations, forced to decom their military wonders, kept under mandatory terms for a few months, have a bunch of notable government members and actives forced out, and cancel, not just suspend, their treaties.

[neneko]

i think it's mildly amusing that you think people on the same side of a conflict can't have differences of opinions.

Silly! Everyone should just quote propaganda they're being fed. Free thinking is dangerous.

[nc1701]

12) All nations and alliances with which the MCXA is at war are released by the MCXA with white peace. This includes individuals on ZI, PZI, and EZI lists, as well as any alliances the MCXA may have conflict with (including FAN and VOX).

This covers Secret ZI lists too right?

13) For the duration of these terms, MCXA nations are not permitted to receive any foreign aid from non-MCXA nations. This includes individuals who surrendered prior to MCXA's surrender.

Just to be clear, they are allowed to pay for tech deals started prior to this war? I have an outstanding tech deal I've been ignoring due to war, but I can collect on it now correct?

Otherwise congratz on fair terms, looking forward to MCXA learning from this and paying attention next time they get warned about what's going to happen. Good luck to everyone

[Jimmy2e]

The results speak for themselves. You've been inactive and uninterested. You know I know.

You don't know me and i certainly don't know you. I know you know nothing that you speak of, so stop making stupid and completely unfounded conjectures. If you know so much please post some kind of proof to back up your statements. I know how good the VoX spy ring is these days.

Maybe that's why you also had no idea that war was coming. Welcome to 6 months ago. November called, it's got some news for you. Some foreign minister.

Maybe that is because we just ignore VoX completely? As MoFA you guys are my lowest of low priorities.

Also, we had no idea war was coming for to a huge split in government, total inner alliance chaos, having our forums hacked and totally destroyed for 2 weeks and having to rebuild. Then me no longer being MoFA and serving elsewhere in the alliance to then have our former MoFA being booted and having to step up to the plate to take over the mess that was left behind? *Cough* *Cough* But your right, its my fault i didn't see the war coming.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Jimmy2e

[Kevin Cash]

they have protectors, the terms may have been worded poorly as to spell it out but some people are more than willing to honor the spirit of their agreements.

try and attack MCXA and see how it turns out for you.

more respect to those alliances if they do uphold that fact, however as a poorly worded instrument of surrender this runs the risk of setting a dangerous precedent that will inevitably be abused by not-so-benevolent victors. i would advise karma to be more precise when writing their terms.

[Teh Chad]

To all that are !@#$%*ing about Karma having terms, etc etc..

Wouldn't you?

[neneko]

I have some questions regarding the terms.

<snip>

Because of

12) All nations and alliances with which the MCXA is at war are released by the MCXA with white peace. This includes individuals on ZI, PZI, and EZI lists, as well as any alliances the MCXA may have conflict with (including FAN and VOX).

I would assume you're free to go.

[Inquisitor Tolkien]

One: it's so blatantly obvious that MCXA would be.

Two: do you really expect NV, AZTEC, and ARES to pull an NPO on MCXA?

[Das Girl]

Seriously people, just let us pay our debt and move on. These are rather simple terms, they will be completed shortly. If you think they should have been greater, you should be taking it up with the alliances who gave the terms or coming at us yourselves now. I assure you we paid well on the battle field already. If you think they are too much, too bad.. we agreed plain and simple. This is what is imposed upon us and I am sure we will follow through fairly easily.

Thank you all for a good clean fight, I hope we can move on from this and have better relations in the future. I have a popcorn machine running nonstop as we watch the rest of the war unfold, just keep it in the bowls please. I hate vacuuming.

[AnCapistan]

And I disagree, War is rarely inevitable, unless your the US and you crave OIL.

While you ARE my leader and I DO believe in most you say I would enjoy if you didn't insult my country on the forums. Thank you

[Vijaya]

Best of luck to you, MCXA. TGE still loves you!

[shahenshah]

more respect to those alliances if they do uphold that fact, however as a poorly worded instrument of surrender this runs the risk of setting a dangerous precedent that will inevitably be abused by not-so-benevolent victors. i would advise karma to be more precise when writing their terms.

This is a fair point. Unless Vague words were forced into the instrument, one must not imply any blame.

[Newhotness]

Sweet terms yo!

[x Tela x]

So if I sign a treaty that says I'll support someone no matter what they do, and then they go out and do incredibly evil things... like EZI/PZI, forcing alliances to disband, forcing alliances to give up control of their forums, extorting reps that grind an alliance's development to a halt... and then when somebody attacks them for it, and I defend them, I'm just "honoring my treaty" and I have no responsibility for my allies' actions?

WRONG. You are, to an extent, responsible for what your allies do while you are defending your allies and threatening those who would oppose them.

You're talking about actions that are ancient history. Talk about this war right now, where any alliance tightly aligned with NPO was harshly criticized when attempting to sever ties, then they are blamed for the perceived sins of NPO, which incidentally, were not very different from the sins committed by many alliances that are now a part of Karma. Their sins were perhaps to a lesser extent, in terms of viceroys, harsh terms, etc, but only because these alliances lacked the power at the time.

NV is included in the above statement. I guess you'll be offering reps to NADC and a few other alliances, right? Maybe Polaris will assist you.

[Dochartaigh]

That seems to be a nice slippery slope to start rationalizing with. How long until it's "only" 100 tech per member or "only" 500 tech per member? This is what all those that oppose the Karma movement were waiting to see. How much will NPO/TPF/any "leading" hegemony alliance pay (if they get peace for awhile anyways)?

do you seriously want to go down that slope? ask the 28 members of Polaris who paid 75% of the reps from the SPW how much tech they had to give up. all i am stating is 25 tech per member is seriously not enough to hinder any sort of rebuilding. that is pure and simple fact. you are trying to add conjecture into a statement that had none there.

how about you ask TPF about some of their terms such as NoV for example before you even begin to think that certain alliances do not deserve worse terms than white peace. if you truly wish to go there, then for karma (not the loose coalition) every member of TPF needs to state that they are in fact not RL Nazis before they get the chance to surrender and be forced from their alliance.

Then you can begin to start talking about a slippery slope. cuz 500 tech is not even that much to be honest. I could pay that within 20 days and then buy it back within 20 days. trying having to give out 5k tech before you think that such paltry numbers are so bad.

i am very amused by the Hegemon's side crying about (though not MCXA) the main Hegemon alliances not getting white peace, despite the fact that the main Hegemon alliances are amongst the worst perpetrators for consistently over the top harsh terms.

these terms are light and you know it. wait for terms that are just like what the Hegemony has given out in the past before you attempt to state that anything is too harsh. Unfortunately for the Hegemony, they have set a damn near unscalable wall when it comes to imposing harsh terms.

[AnCapistan]

Also o7 MCXA to peace

We will

Rebuild

Reduce

Reuse

and Recycle

Edited May 7, 2009 by Mr Damsky