Announcement from VE, AZTEC, ARES, and MCXA

[Dochartaigh]

How am I a hypocrite? I've never liked terms on an alliance after a destructive war, never have. Having fought on the losing sides of both wars I'd say I've been failry consistant on my opinions on this matter. Do I think these terms are lenient? I don't know, all I'm saying is give MCXA a way to rebuild rather than forcing them to pay reps. That's all I'm saying. MCXA honored a treaty, got jumped by Aztec, and in the end come away with having to pay reps. I've seen this before, and I've fought it twice.

unless i am mistaken you were calling for MCXA's head for a long while after the SPW. now terms such as those imposed on Polaris after such a destructive war is harsh and bad. Fact is, MCXA did not pay for that tech. they also got double the amount by almost a 20th of the amount of nations. MCXA has 400 members who can give up some tech. that does not hinder rebuilding in the least when each member needs only send 25 tech to pay the entire reps off. I am sorry but seriously, 25 tech per member is not going to be so bad that it takes MCXA months to pay it off and many more months to make up for that 25 tech that each of their members had to give up..........

if you seriously think that, then you are a hypocrite as you have no idea what harsh terms are and are only keeping true to berating the winning side just to hear yourself speak.

[mykep]

Tell this to Stumpy, or you'll be called Dense. Are you saying others returned the tech or fighting for Karma waivers all the ebils? If you are putting a price on Justice, at least don't sell it so cheap.

<Mykep> Hi there

<Stumpy> Hey whats up

<Mykep> Okay, wierd and out of the blue question. When an alliance's gov does something stupid, should the new gov have to correct it?

<Stumpy> Yes

<Stumpy> Why

<Mykep> As in, if they offer terrible reps, the next should apologize or offer them back or do something to correct it if they believe it to be wrong?

<Stumpy> I think so

<Stumpy> especially apologize

<Stumpy> like if NPO got new government

<Mykep> Some IRON guy said I'd be dense unless I asked you

<Stumpy> Wait what

I will also ask, "wait what?"

[Stumpy Jung Il]

Tell this to Stumpy, or you'll be called Dense. Are you saying others returned the tech or fighting for Karma waivers all the ebils? If you are putting a price on Justice, at least don't sell it so cheap.

That had nothing to do with what I was talking about

[shahenshah]

Something I find funny here is that the main crime that MCXA seems to be charged with is extorting NpO. NpO however have publicly stated that not only do they not support karma in "any way or form" but that they directly resent the karma movement.

Now please go on

I don't think that is their crime, how can you punish other side when your main firepower is made up of those people who can be charged with exact same crimes?

MCXA is Guilty of:

1. Association to NPO for several months

2. Silent partner in crime

3. Ebil Reps

4. Not cancelling its treaties with Hegemony when war is clearly on the horizon and stick to its treaties.

Only point #4 happens to be non-common compared with several Karma alliances, and first three points involved heavy involvement of people who are on Karma's side now.

I'm not arguing if terms are lenient or not, lets be objective, they are relatively lenient, I do not dispute that at all, but let us not kid ourselves about any righteousness or something. If MK or STA or NpO had set these terms, I'd have no objection as far as ethics are concerned. Anyway, time for //RL// This thread will be fun for sometime.

Edit: Stumpy, Mykep..was in reference to VE and reps stuff we've touched upon earlier. I missed the apology or repayment of reps I think, my apologies if that was the case.

Edited May 7, 2009 by shahenshah

[Kevin Cash]

it is mildly amusing to watch karma justify their crime with examples of the past crimes they claim to oppose.

[neneko]

You might want to update yourself on a war currently raging that MCXA just surrendered in for further reasons for the terms given.

I just wanted to point out that the alliance that people in this thread are fighting (with words) to protect from the evil MCXA said it resents them and their cause.

I'm not sure why that was brought up anyway. I'ts not like 10k tech is a insane ammount to pay after a war this size.

Edited May 7, 2009 by neneko

[bzelger]

Alliances should not give terms that they are not willing to accept themselves.

As these terms are light by MCXA standards, I don't see the problem. It needn't be seen as retribution for (many) past crimes so much as a paring back of their obscene precedent without essentially rolling over for them.

[Tygaland]

it is mildly amusing to watch karma justify their crime with examples of the past crimes they claim to oppose.

What crime is that?

[mykep]

MCXA is Guilty of:

1. Association to NPO for several months

2. Silent partner in crime

3. Ebil Reps

4. Not cancelling its treaties with Hegemony when war is clearly on the horizon and stick to its treaties.

You missed:

5. Association with NpO before its due were paid.

6. Leaving them and NOT getting thier dues paid.

[Voobaha]

For this participant in his first war, there will be no comment on the TERMS of the peace with MCXA; they are what they are.

I only come here to praise the civil conduct of those from the MCXA I personally battled:

Please enter name : our fight was brief, but done with honor, and I wish you well in rebuilding.

Dewford: Understandably, RL caused to take you away from CN. Hope you come back with a re-roll.

For Driver Down: We fought well, and shared good laughs along the way. I also appreciate the improvment tips given after our battles had ended. You have my respect and friendship.

and finally, The Tannhauser Gate: for the past few days, we have beaten on each other without letup. From attacks right after the reset, to the occasional CM lobbed in mid-day... my hat is off to you for your relentlessness.

I wish you ALL the best....

o/ AZTEC

o/ my Grand Lodge of Freemason brothers.

Thank you ALL for making this an enjoyable (while also at times frustrating) experience.

[King Srqt]

it is mildly amusing to watch karma justify their crime with examples of the past crimes they claim to oppose.

I think its mildly amusing when people pretend that karma is or ever has been against reps of any kind.

Edited May 7, 2009 by KingSrqt

[Tygaland]

I just wanted to point out that the alliance that people in this thread are fighting (with words) to protect from the evil MCXA said it resents them and their cause.

I'm not sure why that was brought up anyway. I'ts not like 10k tech is a insane ammount to pay after a war this size.

To be fair, I don't think anyone was fighting to protect NpO from anything in this thread. The NpO's terms and the events that lead up to those terms were presented to show the terms offered were far more lenient than MCXA offered others in their current position.

MCXA got the terms they did based on their position in the Continuum, not because of terms they gave to others 8 months ago.

I agree with you. 10K tech is not much for an alliance their size.

[Kevin Cash]

What crime is that?

the harsh terms that were imposed on tdsm8 during the last great war. people were talking about it a couple pages ago.

furthermore, nobody responded to my previous point, that mcxa was left defenseless, isolated, and more importantly, assigned no protectors by these terms

[Nintenderek]

I'm confident that most everyone would agree that TDSM8 received permanently damaging terms in hindsight and that no alliance its size should have to go through them again. This treaty in general offers moderate terms in relation to previous wars. In comparison to the terms given to other alliances in this war however, they are the worst by far. That is the main bone of contention as it were.

And yes it is called the "karma war" and the wheel doesn't stop spinning.

They are being given worst terms are because they are closer to the center of the conflict. Not everyone can be given white peace for every little part they played in a war this size. The closer you are to the center of the war, the bigger your terms will be. So if you really don't like these terms, I'd be willing to bet you'll be in for a surprise when it comes to NPO's terms.

[Dochartaigh]

it is mildly amusing to watch karma justify their crime with examples of the past crimes they claim to oppose.

seriously, get a clue. go and read about the terms MCXA has given out or been party too. for that matter go and read up on the terms that any on the Hegemony side has given to alliances and tell me that an alliance of 400-500 members having to pay 10k tech and 300 mil is so horrible?

it is even more amusing watching people make a fool outta themselves by trying to state how harsh these terms are.

@Hal, yes the war is still going and guess what, i am fairly sure that with the fact that all but 2 alliances that have surrendered have been given white peace thus far. then tell me if Q or 1V were winning what are the odds that those numbers would be reversed. it would be more like all but 2 alliances that have surrendered have been strapped down with harsh terms?

[Kevin Cash]

I think its mildly amusing when people pretend that karma is or ever has been against reps of any kind.

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

[KinKiac]

Hey, what goes around come around, right? /me eyes VE and Aztec.

What is that supposed to mean? Are you threatening us?

MCXA took a major hit after this war, the proper thing to do would've just to give them white peace and help them rebuild by paying for those tech deals. Just taking 7k tech from them isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to cause more problems.

we took a major hit in the last war, were preemptively attacked before we even joined the war, then were forced to pay reps to several alliances. I dont speak for my alliance, but IMO, it doesnt matter if those alliances were not MCXA. MCXA has handed out far worse terms than this so stop crying over spilt milk.

The current government of TSO is actually to blame for the terms laid on Polar, anyone with half a mind would have realized that. Yet, again, you're so ignorant of the situation you wouldn't know that. The people on your side of the conflict, that'd be FOK/TOP/TSO/RnR and co. set the reps for Polar last war. If I'm a fool, then you're just plain uneducated that's all I'll say about that.

But hey, Tyga, I'm a TPF supporter so I must be delusional, right? Give me a break, the more I speak to you the more of a joke you become to me.

I can see by that last statement why you were on peoples ZI lists. Luckily for you most have stopped that kind of thing. Calling a fairly respected member of this community a "joke" is asking for trouble.

10k tech isn't a big deal. MCXA shouldn't have any problems getting that debt paid. However, it has been alluded to that these reparations are for past actions, and have nothing to do with this war, in which MCXA entered via their defense treaties with NPO. If this is the case, should this become the norm? If GOD loses a war in the future, shall we take out in blood money what they took out on LoFN?

That happened quite awhile ago, but it seems we're setting a precedent here for ignoring the current conflict and instead taking out blood money from past indiscretions or sins, as viewed by the victors. Why not view the current conflict and take it for what it was? It was a beating, and they took their lumps. Any reparations as a result of this current conflict are nothing but blood money, as MCXA did nothing wrong. They simply honored a treaty.

So, go right ahead, and keep up with the blood money reparations based on issues from the past. Don't be surprised if it bites you in the $@! some day though.

You are the same person that in another thread said that MK was going to be the next Overlords of CN right? I lol'd.

I left to wonder if those who took individual surrender terms knew that they would not be allowed back into MCXA for an extended period of time if they would have actually surrendered. So what exactly do they do now? Form a "Friends of MCXA" alliance until they can get back into to MCXA?

A completely unnecessary condition of surrender and I'm frankly surprised that MCXA agreed to it.

ummm.... those that left to become Karma POW's are now under those terms anyway, and are subject to those terms until stated otherwise. Personally I would assume that anyone surrendering under the Karma POW AA is probably going to be under that AA until the end of this war, not just when their former alliances get peace.

I'm sorry but I and the rest of the Multicolored Government was to busy attending to INTERNAL matters, much of which we haven't been able to overcome since the forming of the TSO. Excuse me for not being as politically involved as I should be, and excuse me for hoping to avoid a war. Sure tensions have been building up for months..most notably when VE canceled on NPO/GGA. But I once again reiterate, I was way more focused on MCXA's Internal Issues than worrying about External affairs which could always wait.

And I disagree, War is rarely inevitable, unless your the US and you crave OIL.

Or, if you are the NPO and crave war!

Really? So this thread is about how MCXA should be punished because they're on the losing side of this war yet the others who are on the "righteous" side are absolved of their sin. Great logic, and you talk about hypocrisy?

How am I a hypocrite? I've never liked terms on an alliance after a destructive war, never have. Having fought on the losing sides of both wars I'd say I've been failry consistant on my opinions on this matter. Do I think these terms are lenient? I don't know, all I'm saying is give MCXA a way to rebuild rather than forcing them to pay reps. That's all I'm saying. MCXA honored a treaty, got jumped by Aztec, and in the end come away with having to pay reps. I've seen this before, and I've fought it twice.

So MCXA is being flagged based on who they're allied with rather than their past transgressions? So those who bailed right before the war broke out are, in fact, "absolved of sin."

Got it.

Deal, it'll be nice to be on the same side of things again.

I lol'd. Are you getting paid for this?

[King Srqt]

the harsh terms that were imposed on tdsm8 during the last great war. people were talking about it a couple pages ago.

furthermore, nobody responded to my previous point, that mcxa was left defenseless, isolated, and more importantly, assigned no protectors by these terms

they have protectors, the terms may have been worded poorly as to spell it out but some people are more than willing to honor the spirit of their agreements.

try and attack MCXA and see how it turns out for you.

[Tygaland]

the harsh terms that were imposed on tdsm8 during the last great war. people were talking about it a couple pages ago.

These terms have nothing to do with TDSM8. They are based on MCXA's position in the Continuum. The references to terms given to TDSM8 and NpO were only to emphasise that the terms given were not harsh when compared to those the MCXA happily handed out when the shoe was on the other foot.

[Dochartaigh]

the harsh terms that were imposed on tdsm8 during the last great war. people were talking about it a couple pages ago.

furthermore, nobody responded to my previous point, that mcxa was left defenseless, isolated, and more importantly, assigned no protectors by these terms

fairly certain that the alliances MCXA surrendered too are considered the protectors of MCXA as that is a typical term given in surrendered terms.

MCXA is out of the war and their treaties are suspended. they may be defenseless but certain that very few people would actually hit them and those that do will be hit by NV/Aztec/other alliances MCXA surrendered too. And as their treaties are only suspended, the treaties are still there. so your isolated bit is full bs.

[Nintenderek]

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

I think it's amusing that you think these terms are harsh. Especially considering you have no alliance and have only existed for three days, although you seem to know a lot more then a nation of that age should.

Edited May 7, 2009 by Nintenderek

[Delta1212]

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

These aren't harsh terms.

[Schattenmann]

i thought karma's kick was to stop the senseless terms of mass payments of tech, etc. good to see a reversal of this policy, especially since it goes right back to embracing what you're fighting against.

everyone that was in government when we sided with NPO is now running TSO. after ejecting them, we got dragged into this because of long-standing treaties. but i guess you watched the documentary already.

Government and candidates-for-gov in MCXA have been calling for the removal of MCXA rfom NPO-axis treaties for months. They've all been demoted or expelled. Guess why?

hahaha i'll leave this one alone, since you don't even care what you're fighting for, apparently. and yeah, i'd know it. but you'd be hard pressed to get nations into my range.

public opinion waxes and wanes. if the opinion falls away from one ideology that previous governments embraced, the current leaders adapt to the new circumstances, even if it goes against their own preferences. since we've a democratically run government and all that fancy stuff.

everyone has been getting white peace: no terms. everyone just stops fighting. MCXA is basically the first alliance to take one in the keister, so to speak.

What Karma is fighting for is not defined by you, a member of an alliance that has been riding the waves of smarter, more successful people than itself for years.

You're also woefully ignorant of world affairs, it's almost laughable.

Sorry, the MCXA doesn't have its own Spy Network to feed it every other alliances plans and intel.

Well now you know better.

Seriously? Clearly you have never had to replace and stabilize a entire government in 3 weeks. The treaty re-evaluation was my personal project and as the person running it I am sure i would have known.

The results speak for themselves. You've been inactive and uninterested. You know I know.

I thought the Vox Populi had no government?

Maybe that's why you also had no idea that war was coming. Welcome to 6 months ago. November called, it's got some news for you. Some foreign minister.

10k tech isn't a big deal. MCXA shouldn't have any problems getting that debt paid. However, it has been alluded to that these reparations are for past actions, and have nothing to do with this war, in which MCXA entered via their defense treaties with NPO. If this is the case, should this become the norm? If GOD loses a war in the future, shall we take out in blood money what they took out on LoFN?

That happened quite awhile ago, but it seems we're setting a precedent here for ignoring the current conflict and instead taking out blood money from past indiscretions or sins, as viewed by the victors. Why not view the current conflict and take it for what it was? It was a beating, and they took their lumps. Any reparations as a result of this current conflict are nothing but blood money, as MCXA did nothing wrong. They simply honored a treaty.

So, go right ahead, and keep up with the blood money reparations based on issues from the past. Don't be surprised if it bites you in the $@! some day though.

HAHAHAHA. Oh Admin!

MCXA owes reps because it chained its treaties to defend the aggressive actions of NPO which were inititated in the middle of peace talks while Moo was disabled enough to not involved himself in peace talks, but not disabled enuogh to declare war. MCXA caused damage to the alliances it attacked, it owes them reps.

I left to wonder if those who took individual surrender terms knew that they would not be allowed back into MCXA for an extended period of time if they would have actually surrendered. So what exactly do they do now? Form a "Friends of MCXA" alliance until they can get back into to MCXA?

A completely unnecessary condition of surrender and I'm frankly surprised that MCXA agreed to it.

I wasn't aware that alliances are in the habit of taking surrendering nations back into the alliance as soon as the alliance's time of need is over, to begin with. You're digging.

We were on an increased state of alert for a number of weeks prior to the outbreak of war, due to the rumours and tinfoil hat nature of the world at large; however, we did not order a full state of military readiness until we had something beyond rumours and speculation to base a decision on.

You personally lowered the state of readiness and removed the ability of the office that issued the level increase to increase readiness level in the future!

ATTENTION MCXA: STOP TRYING TO BE CLEVER IN A THREAD WHERE VOX POPULI IS ALL UP IN YOUR !@#$!

Is anyone else in MCXA interested i trying to pass off the laziest, most stupid lies I've sen in a long time? Because Vox has alllllll night.

[Jimmy2e]

We are sooo popular tonight. I will be signing autographs in #mcxa id anyone is interested. :awesome:

[Dochartaigh]

i think its mildly amusing that karma cant make up its mind on whether or not harsh terms are ok and tries to skirt around the fact in a variety of ways

point me to where Karma said this vs the alliances in this loose coalition that Karma actually is. There is no central gov of Karma as it is not a bloc, nor is it even as tightly bound as CoaLUEtion was since there are far more alliances involved on Karma's side than on CoaLUEtion's side back in the day.

also point me to where MCXA signed harsh terms?