An Announcement from The Sasori Initiative concerning the War

[rabonnobar]

Yes I agree it should be at least 100,000 tech paid as reps as one alliance had to pay during the the noCB War.

I know! Karma totally has to do the same things NPO did and use it as a reference for their own actions! This isn't supposed to be a fresh start at all!

[x Tela x]

This thread is hilarious. I especially like the part where PC waltzes in trying to smooth things over, and proves once again that they're just the same old PC, aggressive with no attention to diplomatic measures whatsoever. It's no wonder their protectorate acts like a bunch of jackbags. They were taught by the best, after all.

[Ejayrazz]

I think its best for TSI, TFO and IS if the war ends sooner. If it means calling our allies to end that front, it means just that.

We didn't forcefully oppress terms - by then I don't believe terms were even really on the table other than an agreement to tech deals instead of reps. I just let Shuru know what was pre-planned from the past 24 hours in an act of good faith. If you want to twist it into some kind of extortion attempt, be my guest I suppose.

Ejay, how does that look like a proposal? That looks like an alliance that is new to the art of negotiations feeling their way through their first surrender, looking at past history of what their previous alliances have seen, and wondering what's changed from just six months ago in the Coalition war.

The harsh terms existed, that was my point and people are insulted for bringing it up, haha.

I think this 'art of negotiations' you speak of is something you need to review in the sense where if one says "Our allies will attack"..whether it is in 'good faith' or not, it is still a aggressive, or rather threatening or somewhat-threatening at best. You should be able to understand why people are raising concerns when you simply state: Yea, we used our allies as a tool, but did it for THEM...Not for us at all. In fact, we aren't thinking of ourselves at ALL. But, in private conversations with other people, we admit we wouldn't give TSI easy terms"

Please understand where I am coming from man. I am talking to some certain people and they are making the story understandable whereas your posts seem blunt and unclear as to your true intentions with using RAD. I have always liked you Twisted, that wont change from this at all, I am just merely stating the truth that others don't wish to. ;]

Maybe you did have good intentions, but I am seemingly more skeptical when I am hearing in private means you were explaining TSI possibly wouldn't be let off easily.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[neneko]

At least this thread show something nice. People on both sides seems to be outraged with these reps demands.

Does anyone honestly think that people would have been outraged over these terms last GW? No they'd been lenient.

For those that doesn't bother to think. I'm not saying these terms are good because there were worse terms last GW. I think these terms are bad and TSI doesn't deserve them, they deserve white peace.

What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what's lenient and what's extortion seems to have shifted and for that I'm glad. Lets hope we move further in that direction.

[Akama]

It's all about whether or not you have the power to get away with demanding things like this, NADC and NATO would have kept fighting and done quite a bit of damage, TSI was a small alliance and PC could have just put them into a FAN situation if they wanted, and most likely would have after they brought in RAD.

Are we thinking of the same two alliances?

[janax]

Noty a fan of reps and I personally wouldn't have asked for them.

Because of that *I* wouldn't consider notifying TSI that RAD was going to enter soon if they didn't surrender, a threat. It's a warning.

This isn't happy fun trade circle building and infra buying time, this is a war.

Is calling in an ally wrong? No.

Is it wrong to want to minimize damage to your protectorate? No.

Is it wrong to win? No.

Did anyone sign anything saying "This will be a fair fight, so no calling friends"? No.

I don't see ANY problem with letting them know that RAD would be entering soon, so hurry up and make up your mind. However, again, this is from my perspective of allowing them to surrender and go their merry way with a "Stay out" warning.

The reps aren't my thing, but except for the lower than market value section, I don't have a problem with them. They just aren't our way. Every alliance makes their own decisions, and has to live with them after the fact.

[Revelation]

At least this thread show something nice. People on both sides seems to be outraged with these reps demands.

Does anyone honestly think that people would have been outraged over these terms last GW? No they'd been lenient.

For those that doesn't bother to think. I'm not saying these terms are good because there were worse terms last GW. I think these terms are bad and TSI doesn't deserve them, they deserve white peace.

What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what's lenient and what's extortion seems to have shifted and for that I'm glad. Lets hope we move further in that direction.

White peace is the a terrible idea.

I disagree with all the alliances that honored there treaties getting white peace. That’s crap. If everyone does this then it takes away from those alliances that honor treaties out of character rather then knowing they will get white peace in seven days just to save face.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Revelation

[Duckz3]

At least this thread show something nice. People on both sides seems to be outraged with these reps demands.

Does anyone honestly think that people would have been outraged over these terms last GW? No they'd been lenient.

For those that doesn't bother to think. I'm not saying these terms are good because there were worse terms last GW. I think these terms are bad and TSI doesn't deserve them, they deserve white peace.

What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what's lenient and what's extortion seems to have shifted and for that I'm glad. Lets hope we move further in that direction.

I truly believe this is because of the karma beliefs.

[x Tela x]

At least this thread show something nice. People on both sides seems to be outraged with these reps demands.

Does anyone honestly think that people would have been outraged over these terms last GW? No they'd been lenient.

For those that doesn't bother to think. I'm not saying these terms are good because there were worse terms last GW. I think these terms are bad and TSI doesn't deserve them, they deserve white peace.

What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what's lenient and what's extortion seems to have shifted and for that I'm glad. Lets hope we move further in that direction.

Well said. I'd like to point out, though, that any form of reparations should fit the crime and the CB, and should not have anything to do with actual damage received.

If an alliance enters a conflict to honor a treaty, and they fight honorably, there's really no need to force them to pay huge reps. If, however, they disrespect your government in private channels etc, then all bets are off.

In this situation, TSI was honoring a treaty, and from all accounts fought honorably.

[Mogar]

Yes, I read President Mogar's communiqués backwards like I usually do, it's a quirk of mine. Anyway, it all made plenty of sense and I agreed with it until he revealed that the alliances in question were "technical defeat, strategic victory" NADC and NATO. I think you may have gotten these alliances confused, Mogar. Please go back and check, for my sanity.

It's irrelevent whether or not they were doing major damage, neither of them is a Citadel alliance, they would have kept numerous other alliances tied up, and they had a decent enough amount of nukes to do damage, even if they just turtled and nuked.

At least this thread show something nice. People on both sides seems to be outraged with these reps demands.

Does anyone honestly think that people would have been outraged over these terms last GW? No they'd been lenient.

For those that doesn't bother to think. I'm not saying these terms are good because there were worse terms last GW. I think these terms are bad and TSI doesn't deserve them, they deserve white peace.

What I'm saying is that the general consensus about what's lenient and what's extortion seems to have shifted and for that I'm glad. Lets hope we move further in that direction.

Even though we've been arguing just about all day today, I completely agree with you here.

Are we thinking of the same two alliances?

OH MAN THEY SUCKED AT WAR SO BAD LOL, LET'S CONTINUE TO FURTHER INSULT THEM OK GUIZ?!?!!?!?

White peace is the a terrible idea.

I disagree with all the alliances that honored there treaties getting white peace. That’s crap. If everyone does this then it takes away from those alliances that honor treaties out of character rather then knowing they will get white peace in seven days just to save face.

Actually this will make more alliances pull ODN moves and just abandon their allies if it looks like they're gonna lose, that way they wont have to pay reps for simply honoring a treaty.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mogar

[AbysmalPea]

I did some math.

If the notion of tech deals was discarded, these would be the equivalent reps:

- 14 million to IS

- 23 million to TFO

- 125 tech to IS

- 375 tech to TFO

Make of it what you will.

[Carter]

Karma is not for revenge though China. Karma was founded on the terms of giving the alliances who had once cut us down endlessly for having different ideals and not liking how they behave. TSI is not one of those alliances, TSI has never been an alliance of vengeance or any activity I can consider un-honorable. If there is anyone who has been un-honorable it was TFO and IS, unfortunately my brothers in Karma have not proven they are truly honorable like many in Karma Have. Demanding reps from a large alliance is acceptable, not from a low NS alliance. PC has seen large reps, My friends of MK and Athens have seen huge reps, is that the bad taste that you want to leave in the mouth of TSI and many other alliances like you where before. There is one way to create enemy's and that is treat them like crap, and eventually the will be hardened like yourselves and you have truly turned into the one thing you guys say you are against. So To IS, TFO and PC, You say you are part of Karma, but truly do not stand with our Virtues.

Thank You,

Josshill

Chancellor of Foreign Affairs

Oceanic Alliance

Woah, he's getting all big-boy on us signing simple comments to alliance announcements. If you haven't noticed Shurukian has said time and time again, that IS and TFO did not treat them like crap but were whether nice to them. I really don't believe IS is "not with" the Karma Virtues (yeah with the capital V) because of their request of reparations. Although avoiding terrible reps are apart of the Karma ideals, there are many other points in general that we're trying to end, including E/PZI, and ideologies that are present in documents such as the Moldavi Doctrine. So to say that TFO and IS does not stand with Karma's values simply because they choose to accept lenient reps is completely inaccurate.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Carter

[astronaut jones]

This thread is hilarious. I especially like the part where PC waltzes in trying to smooth things over, and proves once again that they're just the same old PC, aggressive with no attention to diplomatic measures whatsoever. It's no wonder their protectorate acts like a bunch of jackbags. They were taught by the best, after all.

Damn right they were.

Who the hell is you again? You seem innerestin'

[Jipps]

White peace is the a terrible idea.

I disagree with all the alliances that honored there treaties getting white peace. That’s crap. If everyone does this then it takes away from those alliances that honor treaties out of character rather then knowing they will get white peace in seven days just to save face.

The beatdown of seven days isn't enough? They were just following treaties afterall.

[Chimaera]

There are high quality extortions going on in this thread. Poor show, folks.

[Carter]

I truly believe this is because of the karma beliefs.

Yeah Einstein, that's basically his point.

Also, if you'd stop referring to Karma as if it were a religion I'd appreciate it.

[Mogar]

I did some math.

If the notion of tech deals was discarded, these would be the equivalent reps:

- 14 million to IS

- 23 million to TFO

- 125 tech to IS

- 375 tech to TFO

Make of it what you will.

You did that backwards.

The beatdown of seven days isn't enough? They were just following treaties afterall.

No, suffer for defending your allies, you freaking jerk.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mogar

[x Tela x]

Damn right they were.

Who the hell is you again? You seem innerestin'

Indeed. I am quite innerestin'. From the back.

OOC: Greenacres, meet Tela. lol rerolls

[rabonnobar]

If you haven't noticed Shurukian has said time and time again, that IS and TFO did not treat them like crap but were whether nice to them.

Emphasis mine. I believe Shuru did not say this of TFO.

[Lavo]

If you haven't noticed Shurukian has said time and time again, that IS and TFO did not treat them like crap but were whether nice to them.

Actually, Shurukian said that IS has been kind and respectful towards us, not TFO.

[Revelation]

The beatdown of seven days isn't enough? They were just following treaties afterall.

What is more honorable?

Going into a war knowing you will lose most of your nations and have to pay massive reps?

or

Going into a conflict to for seven days knowing you will get white peace?

Im just saying all this white peace crap is killing the game for me. I dont care about money i would just like to know who the really honorable alliances are out there.

[janax]

Point of order, I believe our 52 person alliance outnukes NATO and NADC by quite a bit. 120 more than NADC and almost 200 more than NATO.

So "decent amount of nukes" would be a fallacy.

[rsoxbronco1]

Most know my personal position on the reps and as a TSI treaty partner I'm not exactly an unbiased source, but a lot of this thread seems to be people whining and posturing because they have nothing better to do and they hate Karma. Compared to straight white peace these terms suck, but as far as terms go, they're very manageable.

I'm not using previous ridiculous terms as justification, but 7500 tech in deals is not worthy of this much $&@!#ing.

I saw far less people when Athens (among many outrageous terms from the NoCB war) was charged with paying literally 100% of the total tech we had as an alliance. Some of you need to stop being such hypocrites.

[Carter]

Actually, Shurukian said that IS has been kind and respectful towards us, not TFO.

Oh word, my fault.

[WarriorConcept]

I believe the overall and for the most part unified displeasure towards these terms do indicate a fresh way of thinking that karma as a whole has brought into the cyberverse. These were generally accepted in the past but are now being argued, which in my opinion is a lot better and an amazing step.