An Announcement from The Sasori Initiative concerning the War

[King Srqt]

Not for people who know how to play the game well and have been receiving tech deals for most of their nations existance, I doubt it's that hard for them to understand, now small newer nations? it's a completely different story.

Aww you lost once? I've lost more wars than I've won, and had to pay over 150 million out of my own coffers in order to fufill my alliance's reparations obligations, because of that I don't feel people should have to pay the winner after they got their $@! kicked, that's more than enough damage as it is.

I have lost a lot too and I wish I got paid ANYTHING for the tech I had to give away as reps the multiple times I had to do it. Oh and then there was the time that my terms involved me deleting my nation that was a fun one.

These terms are not harsh and the implications that they are anything like what the hegemony would be doing if they were winning is both hilarious and insulting.

[Hob Dobson]

The issue is that it makes it extremely difficult to organize these, and after you lose a war and most of your nations lost months of work, you tend to lose a lot of members, especially in smaller alliances, had you ever been on the losing side of a war, I think you'd understand this better.

In which case, one should be able to call on experienced friends and allies to help out with organizing the effort. Since so many people seem to be bothered by the level of difficulty these terms present, there really should be no shortage of volunteers.

[Mogar]

I have lost a lot too and I wish I got paid ANYTHING for the tech I had to give away as reps the multiple times I had to do it. Oh and then there was the time that my terms involved me deleting my nation that was a fun one.

These terms are not harsh and the implications that they are anything like what the hegemony would be doing if they were winning is both hilarious and insulting.

Never said they'd be better if the hegemony won, If I personally was in charge of the hegemony though, you'd never see any type of reparations from me that didn't benefit the alliance surrendering more than my own alliance, Perhaps someday we'll see a world without forced reps after getting your teeth kicked in.

In which case, one should be able to call on experienced friends and allies to help out with organizing the effort. Since so many people seem to be bothered by the level of difficulty these terms present, there really should be no shortage of volunteers.

It's the point they shouldn't have to pay money, after getting losing a war already.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mogar

[Midkn1ght]

I really hate to break it to the world at large but there has never been an official policy that everyone should be given white peace. There has also never been a standing from the people over at the karma side that people should always have gotten white peace when we criticized NPO. what people said was that overly harsh and unreasonable terms were what we disagreed with.

Terms happen after a war not everyone will get white peace the important thing is is that terms are not crippling or overly destructive, which these are not.

The members of karma want to be fair not pushovers.

This. Place even a single simple term and you're trolled, which is to be expected I guess. It's a bit screwed, be forceful with your surrendering party, and you're going to get flamed off the interwebz nowadays... Funny how the fear of NPO kept many of you folks trolling now from speaking up against 80K in tech reps MK got to sit through, or the flat out disbandment or eternal war stances/barely possible terms given in the past.

But omg you're crying because it's "too difficult" to have an alliance figure out how to tech sell? Really? If they can figure out how to war, I'm sure they can figure out how to buy tech.

I'm glad we are now playing in a world where folks can speak their mind without worry of being rolled by a shoddy quickly thrown together CB, but good god folks, terms are a part of war, you get white peace/light terms, there's probably a reason. I really can't wait to see what terms the big dogs wind up with, I'm sure it'll be nowhere NEAR what they handed out on a light day, but Karma's going to be trolled to hell and back for not letting NPO/IRON/MXCA off with white peace, you watch.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Midkn1ght

[King Srqt]

Never said they'd be better if the hegemony won, If I personally was in charge of the hegemony though, you'd never see any type of reparations from me that didn't benefit the alliance surrendering more than my own alliance, Perhaps someday we'll see a world without forced reps after getting your $@! kicked.

I wouldn't ask for reps either, that doesn't mean that they are unreasonable or harsh. I am government in a democratic alliance, a lot of the members of my alliance that are not very politically active are confused as to why they are not getting reps especially after having to pay reps in losing wars and I am under some pressure to change my opinion based on the opinions of the people who I need to vote for me to stay n government so you have to understand that it is not always so black and white for government members of alliances especially when their members make good arguments about why they feel they should be able to get reps.

Luckily I am a stubborn !@#$%^& who puts his principles above everything so do not expect to see me asking for reps while I have a say

[Mogar]

but Karma's going to be trolled to hell and back for not letting NPO/IRON/MXCA off with white peace, you watch.

Q/1V you actually have legit excuses to charge harsh reps to, what did TSI do to deserve any type of reps other than follow their treaty?

I wouldn't ask for reps either, that doesn't mean that they are unreasonable or harsh. I am government in a democratic alliance, a lot of the members of my alliance that are not very politically active are confused as to why they are not getting reps especially after having to pay reps in losing wars and I am under some pressure to change my opinion based on the opinions of the people who I need to vote for me to stay n government so you have to understand that it is not always so black and white for government members of alliances especially when their members make good arguments about why they feel they should be able to get reps.

Luckily I am a stubborn !@#$%^& who puts his principles above everything so do not expect to see me asking for reps while I have a say

I understand that, but I have a feeling we're both hoping people wont feel a need to ask for any type of reps to begin with.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Mogar

[Chickenzilla]

Dear god, you people like to !@#$%* and moan alot don't you?

[Mogar]

Dear god, you people like to !@#$%* and moan alot don't you?

Yes, we do.

[Rebel Virginia]

You were a bit off the last go around. So once again I'd check with those actually in the room at the time. I wasn't. And am fairly certain you were not, either. Either way...you are not part of the alliances involved.

I have quite a few direct sources. Of course I don't expect any of you to man up and tell the world exactly what happened. Instead you all lie, try to hide what you really tried to do.

Dear god, you people like to !@#$%* and moan alot don't you?

You know, you and others have been awful quick to pick of up some NPO's lines. "You whine a lot. Tears are delicious," "you're lucky to even get terms," "thank us for our mercy," "you were on the losing side of the war, you have no rights," etc. Pathetic. Quite frankly I'm disgusted with all of you.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Rebel Virginia

[Blacky]

Wait, the outrage is that since its 150/3m the tech dealing gets to complicated?

The difference is some alliances deserve terms to be meted out against them whereas others, TSI included does not.

Alliances in One Vision and the Continuum on the other hand some of them have commited so many IC crimes that no terms against them can be brutal enough to meet the natural justice of an eye for an eye. But in knowing that the blow will be softened by others getting anything less than white peace I have opposed it.

[extraduty]

I have quite a few direct sources. Of course I don't expect any of you to man up and tell the world exactly what happened. Instead you all lie, try to hide what you really tried to do.

If'd like to know what happened (though I thought I made it clear in previous posts) you are welcome to query me on IRC and we can discuss it. #is

[Sakura]

I did some (rough) calculations -- and here's how it ends up amounting:

IS is paying 28,000,000 for 1400 tech (20k/level), and 33,000,000 for another 1100 tech (30k/level).

Grand total: IS pays TSI 61,000,000 for 2500 tech. (about 24,400/level).

With the right trades and two universities (and no wonders) its about 600k to buy 50 tech -- yes inexperienced tech sellers are more likely to mess up and buy 150 tech right away, or buy 50 tech, send the first aid offer, and buy another 50 tech without it being accepted. Medium/long term tech sellers (in training) will get valuable experience in proper tech dealing, this benefits IS in the short term with that tech. But this also benefits TSI in the long term with more experience dealing, so they can more confidently sell tech to alliances such as The Grämlins or other alliances which are following their example.

Even if the going rate for tech were 3m/50 tech (which it isn't), and assuming that IS was getting that tech for free (which again, we aren't) the total value of that tech would be 150,000,000, or 16,666,666/nation receiving tech.

And at the going rate of 3m/100 tech, it would be 75,000,000 or 8,333,333/nation receiving tech.

So far in the Karma war, I've lost 1126.86, even *with* all possible discounts (resource, government, wonders, and improvements) that would cost 32,469,643 to rebuild. (In reality, it will probably end up being in the 42,000,000 area -- even if I take no more damage for the rest of the Karma war.)

To TSI fighting you was an honour, and a learning experience. Special thanks for a war well fought (and with the only flames being our infra going up in them). I'm looking forward to a future of diplomatic ties, as TSI and IS are not that far removed from each other. Yesterday's enemy may become tomorrow's ally.

[Kevin Cash]

I did some (rough) calculations -- and here's how it ends up amounting:

IS is paying 28,000,000 for 1400 tech (20k/level), and 33,000,000 for another 1100 tech (30k/level).

Grand total: IS pays TSI 61,000,000 for 2500 tech. (about 24,400/level).

With the right trades and two universities (and no wonders) its about 600k to buy 50 tech -- yes inexperienced tech sellers are more likely to mess up and buy 150 tech right away, or buy 50 tech, send the first aid offer, and buy another 50 tech without it being accepted. Medium/long term tech sellers (in training) will get valuable experience in proper tech dealing, this benefits IS in the short term with that tech. But this also benefits TSI in the long term with more experience dealing, so they can more confidently sell tech to alliances such as The Grämlins or other alliances which are following their example.

basically, you just said tsi has gained valuable skills necessary in being a gremlins tech farm for a long period of their existence.

i find you disgusting. tsi are far above and beyond being a worthless tech farm. if it werent for these terms, they'd be back on their feet in no time. tsi, a tech selling alliance? disgusting.

imo shurukian gives you far more respect than you deserve.

[Jgoods45]

I'm disappointed to say the least. TSI, if you need anything, you know where to find us.

o/TSI

[extraduty]

basically, you just said tsi has gained valuable skills necessary in being a gremlins tech farm for a long period of their existence.

i find you disgusting. tsi are far above and beyond being a worthless tech farm. if it werent for these terms, they'd be back on their feet in no time. tsi, a tech selling alliance? disgusting.

imo shurukian gives you far more respect than you deserve.

You seem to have a real issue with ...well everyone. For clarification, who are you again?

[Augustus Autumn]

I'm disappointed to say the least. TSI, if you need anything, you know where to find us.

o/TSI

Athens have been nothing but outstanding friends through all of this. Thanks, Jgoods.

[Kevin Cash]

You seem to have a real issue with ...well everyone. For clarification, who are you again?

just a guy who has issues with ...well, everyone.

[rsoxbronco1]

I did some (rough) calculations -- and here's how it ends up amounting:

IS is paying 28,000,000 for 1400 tech (20k/level), and 33,000,000 for another 1100 tech (30k/level).

Grand total: IS pays TSI 61,000,000 for 2500 tech. (about 24,400/level).

With the right trades and two universities (and no wonders) its about 600k to buy 50 tech -- yes inexperienced tech sellers are more likely to mess up and buy 150 tech right away, or buy 50 tech, send the first aid offer, and buy another 50 tech without it being accepted. Medium/long term tech sellers (in training) will get valuable experience in proper tech dealing, this benefits IS in the short term with that tech. But this also benefits TSI in the long term with more experience dealing, so they can more confidently sell tech to alliances such as The Grämlins or other alliances which are following their example.

Even if the going rate for tech were 3m/50 tech (which it isn't), and assuming that IS was getting that tech for free (which again, we aren't) the total value of that tech would be 150,000,000, or 16,666,666/nation receiving tech.

And at the going rate of 3m/100 tech, it would be 75,000,000 or 8,333,333/nation receiving tech.

So far in the Karma war, I've lost 1126.86, even *with* all possible discounts (resource, government, wonders, and improvements) that would cost 32,469,643 to rebuild. (In reality, it will probably end up being in the 42,000,000 area -- even if I take no more damage for the rest of the Karma war.)

To TSI fighting you was an honour, and a learning experience. Special thanks for a war well fought (and with the only flames being our infra going up in them). I'm looking forward to a future of diplomatic ties, as TSI and IS are not that far removed from each other. Yesterday's enemy may become tomorrow's ally.

Did I just read that you're justifying this by saying you aren't asking for reps for every single dollar of damage caused? It was a war and now you're using TSI to build up your alliance. Great show.

You guys are so generous in your desire to help educate TSI noobs. TSI should have requested you charge more reps.

[Mogar]

Did I just read that you're justifying this by saying you aren't asking for reps for every single dollar of damage caused? It was a war and now you're using TSI to build up your alliance. Great show.

You guys are so generous in your desire to help educate TSI noobs. TSI should have requested you charge more reps.

Or an adviser to their alliance to teach them how to tech deal, maybe even let him advise TSI on who they should ally?

[Chickenzilla]

You know, you and others have been awful quick to pick of up some NPO's lines. "You whine a lot. Tears are delicious," "you're lucky to even get terms," "thank us for our mercy," "you were on the losing side of the war, you have no rights," etc. Pathetic. Quite frankly I'm disgusted with all of you.

I meant on both sides. Actions speak louder than words. Karma's side doesn't have to respond to anyone calling them out with words. Really, I just hope for white peace for every alliance, and an end to this war. Oh, peace for all ZI/P-ZI/EZI nations, and an end to all offensive wars.

Edited May 5, 2009 by Chickenzilla

[KinKiac]

There's only so much the cowards could get away with and they know it. They fact they demanded anything at all says enough. Give me TSI's crime. What have they done to warrant this? How is this justice? Who did they force to disband? Who have they EZIed? Give me one gross abuse of power undertaken by this alliance while it was connected to the NPO's hegemony.

I am well aware of this fact, but I am still convinced that both TFO and IS have proven themselves to be nothing more but petty and opportunistic cowards through the way they have conducted themselves in this war.

I think that was a bit much dont you? However for most intents and purposes I do agree with you that reps were not needed in this particular case. They just dont serve any worthwhile purpose except profit from war. However, I wouldnt call it extortion unless the amounts were higher and not doable by TSI.

That means its anything goes on the reps as long as you say we're not really Karma.

This war isnt over alliances having to pay reps, Karma never promised or hinted at alliances never having to pay reps again. Talk about slander over comparatively little

I'm not suggesting he does. Just suggesting that others look to him, take his thoughts under advisement, etc, making him the de facto head of Karma - for appearnces sake - and adding to the confusion.

Who's confused? Anyone whos been paying attention in this war knows that Archon has no power and is but the voice of Karma. Whats to be confused about?

what? i thought karma was all about changing the way things were done, you know, that whole moral high ground and stuff, but here you try and justify your actions with past situations that you have previously labeled criminal and the cause for this war... what a joke. what utter hypocrisy.

i thought you guys were the beginning

though i agree, only worse things are on their way, expect a lot of forced disbandments as well. such a shame, karma could have truly altered things, such a shame to watch them revert back to what has been the standard.

my best wishes to those unfortunate enough to remain in this conflict, they will suffer more damages and yet be made to pay even harsher terms.

didnt realize alliances uninvolved had to sign off on terms in wars they werent involved in. oh ho the times are changing. not even npo did that.

Way to miss the point

if you think that the people of cn will not remember this when you come around asking for a treaty, think again.

kind of ironic, really

oh and since people are advocating that karma is all about white peace i would recommend karma alliances dropping any treaties with these profiteers, you wouldnt want to be empowering extortionists now would you

ps: i await the white peace you guys are going to give tpf, gga, mcxa, echelon, iron, and everyone else who simply honored their treaties. since thats what karma is all about.

Who peed in your cornflakes? Way to spin things in such a way that no-one takes you seriously. Anyone who's being truthful and actually knows what is going on is not buying it dude. Karma is a very loose affiliation, we all know that. These terms, while unfortunate, are nothing to get too upset about, we all know this. This war is about P/EZI, disbandment, viceroyship and extremely harsh terms, not about everyone getting or offering white peace, we all know this. Give it up already.

Please stop being ignorant of the facts, and I would also appreciate it if you kept your generalizations to yourself. Quit grouping us all together as if we are all part of some formal treaty with an actual leader or policy which we must follow or adhere to. The terms asked for by my alliance will reflect on us and no one else, as is the case with all the alliances fighting on the karma side. I do not speak for my alliance, but Im sure most will agree, we shouldnt be held accountable for decisions made by alliances with which we have no formal affiliation with.

[Jgoods45]

Athens have been nothing but outstanding friends through all of this. Thanks, Jgoods.

You too, friend. Although I'm sad to see these kind of terms given to you guys and gals, Its great to see you guys finally achieve peace. I cant wait to see you guys rebuild and surpass your prewar stats, but most off all, I cant wait to get even more closer to you guys.

o/ the most honorable TSI

Edited May 5, 2009 by Jgoods45

[Kevin Cash]

Karma's side doesn't have to respond to anyone calling them out with words.

ahem

not all of them. a few on the karma side are there for less than honorable reasons

i do however share your sentiments in wishing for a white peace, though i know it will not happen. (i am more than prepared to eat my words on that, though i doubt karma cares about me)

[Kevin Cash]

I think that was a bit much dont you? However for most intents and purposes I do agree with you that reps were not needed in this particular case. They just dont serve any worthwhile purpose except profit from war. However, I wouldnt call it extortion unless the amounts were higher and not doable by TSI.

This war isnt over alliances having to pay reps, Karma never promised or hinted at alliances never having to pay reps again. Talk about slander over comparatively little

Who's confused? Anyone whos been paying attention in this war knows that Archon has no power and is but the voice of Karma. Whats to be confused about?

Way to miss the point

Who peed in your cornflakes? Way to spin things in such a way that no-one takes you seriously. Anyone who's being truthful and actually knows what is going on is not buying it dude. Karma is a very loose affiliation, we all know that. These terms, while unfortunate, are nothing to get too upset about, we all know this. This war is about P/EZI, disbandment, viceroyship and extremely harsh terms, not about everyone getting or offering white peace, we all know this. Give it up already.

Please stop being ignorant of the facts, and I would also appreciate it if you kept your generalizations to yourself. Quit grouping us all together as if we are all part of some formal treaty with an actual leader or policy which we must follow or adhere to. The terms asked for by my alliance will reflect on us and no one else, as is the case with all the alliances fighting on the karma side. I do not speak for my alliance, but Im sure most will agree, we shouldnt be held accountable for decisions made by alliances with which we have no formal affiliation with.

you all collectively peed in my cornflakes with this rampant hypocrisy. and i am very protective of my cornflakes.

the facts are, karma isnt all that it chalks itself up to be. the 'big' alliances in this are mostly going to get harsh terms and its going to set a dangerous precedent for the future. conversely, if they dont get harsh terms, theyll pop right back up and take back their spot in no time. in other words it's lose-lose as far as 'changing the world' is considered

[Firkked]

You fought well and have done what is both honorable and best for your members as a whole.

o/ TSI