An Announcement from The Sasori Initiative concerning the War

[astronaut jones]

I think, with all due respect, Xavii, the argument isn't whether the terms are fair or not in some ways, it's if they should of, well, existed.

Yes, I get tech deals are better than payments and I guess I am grateful that TSI didn't have to drop their treaties, a number of which are with the Karma side as well. I get that, I really do. I also get that we're a coalition of 30+ different alliances and the alliances involved can demand what they want.

However, I don't see this serving anyone. TSI entered this war with honor and to honor their treaty with their longtime protector, to protect them, similar reasons why Apocalypse and many small alliances on the Karma side attacked those who had in someway affected our traditional allies. Many alliances have, to this point, have received white peace for their service, including alliances with the wherewithal to pay MORE than TSI with more slots. Legion springs immediately to mind.

I have to say I'm disappointed. We aren't the coalition of yesteryear as far as NPO terms and all that are concerned, and I guess if you're keeping score at home we're still better with these terms, but are we seriously the coalition or the rabble that just sort of formed because we can't take it anymore? Because if we are the second, let's stop pretending to be the first. TSI is not the reason we're fighting this war, so I, as an alliance leader still find this unnecessary.

Congrats on TSI finding peace.

In the past, alliances entering into the fray because of honour and treaty obligation have received crippling terms.

These terms aren't crippling.

And, good for you for being disappointed. Hooray for you. woo hoo.

[Kevin Cash]

It all depends on how you look at it. In many ways sponge was just playing the game. For those people who know at least half of what nowedge did, many would argue that he was WAY worse than sponge.

but were these things done in the name of valhalla or on a personal basis?

the fact is the crimes sponge committed under the banner of polar far outweigh the crimes committed by nowedge under the banner of valhalla... otherwise we would have seen more commotion about valhalla being evil.

the biggest crime valhalla (under nowedge) is known for is putting baps on 'almost pzi' (never actually occurred because nowedge was couped), whilst polar (under sponge) forced (or helped force) a number of alliances to disband.

[mhawk]

You'd have expected this from PC?

Really? You know nothing of PC then, other than the !@#$ that's been spewed to you by your protectors. What is TSI, anyway, but the new Purge?

I mean really, is everything our fault to you? We weren't even in the negotiations.

[Ghostlin]

In the past, alliances entering into the fray because of honour and treaty obligation have received crippling terms.

These terms aren't crippling.

And, good for you for being disappointed. Hooray for you. woo hoo.

Wow, I was predicting when someone would decide that being nasty was the way to go, I hadn't figured on two posts.

'Crippling' or not, I am entitled to my opinion on the terms, good sir, and I felt they weren't necessary. Since this is thread dedicated to this discussion, I thought we could contribute with that opinion. I also made some comparisons to Karma and the past when crippling terms were the norm and I said we were doing better...did you read my post at all, or did you think you just wanted to contribute so badly you fired off this?

I'll tl;dr my previous post for you: While I feel we're doing better than NPO and company with terms, I don't think considering Karma's past attitudes to certain alliances, these terms were entirely necessary (since TSI isn't really the reason we're fighting this), and I think a standard might be in order. I am dissappointed that it's sorta off the standard we set at the beginning of the war.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Ghostlin

[Kevin Cash]

I mean really, is everything our fault to you? We weren't even in the negotiations.

yes because tpf is the bane of existence and you stole pcs lunch money once so anyone who associates with you is scum who deserve to be extorted and/or killed off

[mhawk]

but were these things done in the name of valhalla or on a personal basis?

the fact is the crimes sponge committed under the banner of polar far outweigh the crimes committed by nowedge under the banner of valhalla... otherwise we would have seen more commotion about valhalla being evil.

the biggest crime valhalla (under nowedge) is known for is putting baps on 'almost pzi' (never actually occurred because nowedge was couped), whilst polar (under sponge) forced (or helped force) a number of alliances to disband.

I would say that nW's crimes (most will never be revealed) on an individual level far exceed anything I know about sponge. However that isn't really important now, he has been gone a long time.

[FreddieMercury]

I'd prefer pride over pixels any day. :jihad:

Sure, but sometimes that is just counterproductive.

Look at MK, had they "kept their pride" and went down like FAN they wouldn't be able to rebuild and give NPO a taste of their own medicine today.

[rsoxbronco1]

Sure, but sometimes that is just counterproductive.

Look at MK, had they "kept their pride" and went down like FAN they wouldn't be able to rebuild and give NPO a taste of their own medicine today.

MK isn't at war with NPO and they are currently treaty partners. Also, when did MK lose their pride?

[Kevin Cash]

Sure, but sometimes that is just counterproductive.

Look at MK, had they "kept their pride" and went down like FAN they wouldn't be able to rebuild and give NPO a taste of their own medicine today.

the cowards always come up with a clever excuse dont they? mk went in that war expecting to be wiped out, id hardly make that comparison

dont soil mks name, there one of a handful on the karma side who have honor (even if archon was a total dick to npo in those negotiations )

[mhawk]

MK isn't at war with NPO and they are currently treaty partners. Also, when did MK lose their pride?

I find it pretty funny that mk, myself, and ML keep ending up at arms with each other, given we pretty much have no interaction or build before wars, somehow the treaties just fall this way every time

[astronaut jones]

I mean really, is everything our fault to you? We weren't even in the negotiations.

Yes. Of course everything is your fault. Obviously that's the case.

duh.

[astronaut jones]

Wow, I was predicting when someone would decide that being nasty was the way to go, I hadn't figured on two posts.

'Crippling' or not, I am entitled to my opinion on the terms, good sir, and I felt they weren't necessary. Since this is thread dedicated to this discussion, I thought we could contribute with that opinion. I also made some comparisons to Karma and the past when crippling terms were the norm and I said we were doing better...did you read my post at all, or did you think you just wanted to contribute so badly you fired off this?

I'll tl;dr my previous post for you: While I feel we're doing better than NPO and company with terms, I don't think considering Karma's past attitudes to certain alliances, these terms were entirely necessary (since TSI isn't really the reason we're fighting this), and I think a standard might be in order. I am dissappointed that it's sorta off the standard we set at the beginning of the war.

that wasn't nasty at all..

and as for the rest of your comment?

[KinKiac]

First of all nearly every alliance that attacked NpO is on the karma side this war. I don't agree with pre emptive assaults on treaty partners and was completely caught off guard when some of our (elysium) bloc allies did such. I made it clear our position on that. I'm not out here trumping our horn that we honored our treaties and need to be let go. We went into this accepting full well the hatred that would be unleashed from all sides against us, some of it valid, some of it completely unreasonable. I just find it hard when statements like the above seem to paint this image of how I've run my alliances when there was no way I could have knowledge of the intent non allies (folks that hit polar/nv) or when being blamed for events decided by others, even as they fight on the opposite side of us.

Im not blaming you for anything or trying to paint a negative picture of your alliance. I was just making a point. You stated that frank talks were in order instead of plotting but where were your frank talks with the likes of NPO and others when they handed down terms that you seem to be against here in this thread? The fact is you probably agreed with them at the time. Im not accusing you or your alliance of any "crimes". The only thing I can personally hold against you is your allegiances to alliances that handed down some of the harshest terms this world has ever seen. By maintaining treaties with alliances such as that, you are in fact no better then them. By having a military treaty with them you are supporting and empowering them in their actions. It doesnt matter what you say, or what pictures people try to paint of your alliance. Your actions and the treaties you maintain paint the picture for you, and for the rest of us.

Im not saying I agree with the reps handed down to TSI, I dont in fact. Im not saying that some of the alliances on the Karma side didnt engage in the same so called "crimes" that the alliances on the hegemony side are accused of, Im not that naive. But to sit here and bemoan the reps demanded here while maintaining treaties with and supporting alliances that have done much worse is hypocrisy. At least those that now fight for the Karma side are showing, through action, what they do and do not support. If, in the future, those same alliances go back to their old ways, Im pretty sure the rest of CN is going to gang up on them as they are now doing to NPO and Co. Hopefully by that time NPO and your own alliance will be fighting with us, instead of against us.

In the end it doesnt matter what any of us says here. The only thing that really matters is our actions, and the reasons for said actions.

[mhawk]

Im not blaming you for anything or trying to paint a negative picture of your alliance. I was just making a point. You stated that frank talks were in order instead of plotting but where were your frank talks with the likes of NPO and others when they handed down terms that you seem to be against here in this thread? The fact is you probably agreed with them at the time. Im not accusing you or your alliance of any "crimes". The only thing I can personally hold against you is your allegiances to alliances that handed down some of the harshest terms this world has ever seen. By maintaining treaties with alliances such as that, you are in fact no better then them. By having a military treaty with them you are supporting and empowering them in their actions. It doesnt matter what you say, or what pictures people try to paint of your alliance. Your actions and the treaties you maintain paint the picture for you, and for the rest of us.

Im not saying I agree with the reps handed down to TSI, I dont in fact. Im not saying that some of the alliances on the Karma side didnt engage in the same so called "crimes" that the alliances on the hegemony side are accused of, Im not that naive. But to sit here and bemoan the reps demanded here while maintaining treaties with and supporting alliances that have done much worse is hypocrisy. At least those that now fight for the Karma side are showing, through action, what they do and do not support. If, in the future, those same alliances go back to their old ways, Im pretty sure the rest of CN is going to gang up on them as they are now doing to NPO and Co. Hopefully by that time NPO and your own alliance will be fighting with us, instead of against us.

In the end it doesnt matter what any of us says here. The only thing that really matters is our actions, and the reasons for said actions.

During the polar war we had no treaty with NPO. Elysium's only treaty partners were TORN, Molon Labe, Valhalla, Baps, OMFG, poseidon. It is hard to have "frank talks" with non allies and never claimed that possible. However cj can attest we did have talks regarding the STA terms ect.

[Kevin Cash]

By maintaining treaties with alliances such as that, you are in fact no better then them. By having a military treaty with them you are supporting and empowering them in their actions. It doesnt matter what you say, or what pictures people try to paint of your alliance. [...] the treaties you maintain paint the picture for you, and for the rest of us.

mha? sparta? fok? top? all of these alliances you just said are no better than npo (only listing the most recent cancellations right before this big war went down, though there are many others on the karma side going further back) Edited May 6, 2009 by Kevin Cash

[KinKiac]

During the polar war we had no treaty with NPO. Elysium's only treaty partners were TORN, Molon Labe, Valhalla, Baps, OMFG, poseidon. It is hard to have "frank talks" with non allies and never claimed that possible. However cj can attest we did have talks regarding the STA terms ect.

I wasnt aware of that. But do you now hold treaties with NPO? Unfortunately I do not know as much as some do regarding the past. Im trying to fill those gaps as much as possible, and if I am wrong about some of the facts please excuse my ignorance. Im sure you can agree that reading between the lines to find out what really happened is a little bit difficult, since many of the views are skewed to say the least. I am not here to antagonize but merely to express my opinions. I am more against the known actions of alliances such as NPO and those that support(ed) them. If that is not you, then I apologize.

mha? sparta? fok? top? all of these alliances you just said are no better than npo (only listing the most recent cancellations right before this big war went down, though there are many others on the karma side going further back)

As for those alliances, Im sure they will get their just desserts if what you say is true. However, this whole going back thing doesnt appeal to me. The farther we go back in time, the less applicable the arguments are. People change and so do alliances. Some maybe just recently, or maybe not at all. I truly hope that all those alliances listed have seen the folly in their old ways and never return to them. For now I fight on the same side as them, but in the future I may very well be against them. What really gets me going is when people try to paint all the alliances fighting on the karma side with the same brush when it is not true. We have a common enemy at the moment, that is all.

[Kevin Cash]

As for those alliances, Im sure they will get their just desserts if what you say is true. However, this whole going back thing doesnt appeal to me. The farther we go back in time, the less applicable the arguments are. People change and so do alliances. Some maybe just recently, or maybe not at all. I truly hope that all those alliances listed have seen the folly in their old ways and never return to them. For now I fight on the same side as them, but in the future I may very well be against them. What really gets me going is when people try to paint all the alliances fighting on the karma side with the same brush when it is not true. We have a common enemy at the moment, that is all.

those i listed 'converted' within a week of this war, some after it began, one still holds a treaty to npo. go back no more than a month and the figure easily doubles if not triples. since one of the recurring arguments from the karma side is that it takes time to convert (and thus allowing karma to conveniently ignore any and all recent honorable actions by the so-called 'hegemony' side), it seems silly that these 'newly enlightened' folks are allowed to get off scot free, does it not?

[Choader]

During the polar war we had no treaty with NPO. Elysium's only treaty partners were TORN, Molon Labe, Valhalla, Baps, OMFG, poseidon. It is hard to have "frank talks" with non allies and never claimed that possible. However cj can attest we did have talks regarding the STA terms ect.

It's not about you personally or about Elysium. TPF held a treaty with NPO before and after the NoCB war and was part of the machine enabling them, you can't redirect every complaint about TPF by bringing up a dead alliance.

[Kevin Cash]

It's not about you personally or about Elysium. TPF held a treaty with NPO before and after the NoCB war and was part of the machine enabling them, you can't redirect every complaint about TPF by bringing up a dead alliance.

so did sparta, so did fok, so did gremlins, so did top, so did mha, so did a lot of other alliances now fighting for 'karma.' they all 'enabled' npo. why are they not also being punished?

[mkoricic]

They corrected the direction of the ship, TPF didnt.

[mhawk]

It's not about you personally or about Elysium. TPF held a treaty with NPO before and after the NoCB war and was part of the machine enabling them, you can't redirect every complaint about TPF by bringing up a dead alliance.

That is critical because by leadership purposes tpf essentially merged into elysium as far as gov.

[BamaBuc]

They corrected the direction of the ship, TPF didnt.

In other words, they jumped to your side, TPF didn't. It has nothing to do with their policies. TPF banned EZI a while back. Not to mention the various people that Slayer, that evil old tyrant, has personally helped get off PZI/EZI. He even went to bat for FAN. Is that not "correcting the direction of the ship"? Should TPF have instead conveniently "reorganized it's treaties" a couple weeks before the war? Is that your idea of "correcting the direction of the ship"? I'm not saying that everyone who canceled on NPO did it for pixels or power, certainly not, but some of them did. These alliances are viewed as having "corrected the direction of the ship", and are instantly absolved of any past crimes. Anyone who stuck with NPO, however, is immediately denounced as evil, regardless of any changes in policy. It has nothing to do with what any of these alliances did or what they deserve, and everything to do with whether or not they fought for you.

-Bama

Edited May 6, 2009 by BamaBuc

[Mogar]

That is critical because by leadership purposes tpf essentially merged into elysium as far as gov.

This is correct, Elysium became the majority of TPF's government, Desperado is the only current TPF gov member from pre merger.

[Augustus Autumn]

They corrected the direction of the ship, TPF didnt.

Let's hope that the courses being set by some alliances and their citizenry during this war don't end up being unable to be corrected then.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Tokugawa Mitsukuni

[Morey 2k7]

In other words, they jumped to your side, TPF didn't. It has nothing to do with their policies. TPF banned EZI a while back. Not to mention the various people that Slayer, that evil old tyrant, has personally helped get off PZI/EZI. He even went to bat for FAN. Is that not "correcting the direction of the ship"? Should TPF have instead conveniently "reorganized it's treaties" a couple weeks before the war? Is that your idea of "correcting the direction of the ship"? I'm not saying that everyone who canceled on NPO did it for pixels or power, certainly not, but some of them did. These alliances are viewed as having "corrected the direction of the ship", and are instantly absolved of any past crimes. Anyone who stuck with NPO, however, is immediately denounced as evil, regardless of any changes in policy. It has nothing to do with what any of these alliances did or what they deserve, and everything to do with whether or not they fought for you.

-Bama

I would say the hate towards TPF is more to do with the consensus of holding a treaty with NPO shows you support them and their actions, as opposed to people seeing TPF as evil because they are on the wrong side.