An Announcement from The Sasori Initiative concerning the War

[AzureShadow]

I don't really know what the topic of this thread is turning into, but all I'm going to say regarding the initial intent of it is that Karma is really starting to disappoint me. They wanted to change the way business is run around here, but all I see is same old, same old.

Sic Semper Tyrannis...?

[Kevin Cash]

I would say the hate towards TPF is more to do with the consensus of holding a treaty with NPO shows you support them and their actions, as opposed to people seeing TPF as evil because they are on the wrong side.

you can support a friend without supporting their actions.

this notion that they have to stop being friends because one made a mistake somewhere down the line is... well, its not right.

sure you are going to come back and yell at the top of your lungs 'lol npo was nothing but mistakes and evil this and evil that blah blah blah' but i would beg to differ on that point.

[Roadie]

you can support a friend without supporting their actions.

this notion that they have to stop being friends because one made a mistake somewhere down the line is... well, its not right.

sure you are going to come back and yell at the top of your lungs 'lol npo was nothing but mistakes and evil this and evil that blah blah blah' but i would beg to differ on that point.

You could save yourself a lot of effort if you would just accept that TPF is evil and dishonorable and anything else that isn't good.

[Shurukian]

I would just like to point out that this thread has nothing to do with the morality or direction of TPF, and while I enjoy the 15+ pages of speculation and arguing, I'd love to stay on topic.

Thanks.

[Morey 2k7]

you can support a friend without supporting their actions.

this notion that they have to stop being friends because one made a mistake somewhere down the line is... well, its not right.

sure you are going to come back and yell at the top of your lungs 'lol npo was nothing but mistakes and evil this and evil that blah blah blah' but i would beg to differ on that point.

NPO haven't made just one mistake over there time, but i will concede that every decision made and actions taken were mistakes. Regardless if you agree or not, its much more logical than the argument of 'you hate on TPF as they aren't fighting with you'.

@azureshadow - as has been posted many a time, where are the terms stating perma ZI, viceroys, removing govt members etc etc from karma?

[Firkked]

By now it is evident by the actions taken by individuals and alliances on the side of Karma whether they are speaking from the heart or merely lip-synching the sentiments that issued at the start of this great conflict.

The score cards are almost tallied and there will be gracious losers, tyrannical winners and everything in between.

From there we can plan the next big war based who did what to someone else ad infinitum.

Until then

[Kevin Cash]

In other words, they jumped to your side, TPF didn't. It has nothing to do with their policies. TPF banned EZI a while back. Not to mention the various people that Slayer, that evil old tyrant, has personally helped get off PZI/EZI. He even went to bat for FAN. Is that not "correcting the direction of the ship"? Should TPF have instead conveniently "reorganized it's treaties" a couple weeks before the war? Is that your idea of "correcting the direction of the ship"? I'm not saying that everyone who canceled on NPO did it for pixels or power, certainly not, but some of them did. These alliances are viewed as having "corrected the direction of the ship", and are instantly absolved of any past crimes. Anyone who stuck with NPO, however, is immediately denounced as evil, regardless of any changes in policy. It has nothing to do with what any of these alliances did or what they deserve, and everything to do with whether or not they fought for you.

-Bama

i could not have stated it better myself.

[KinKiac]

so did sparta, so did fok, so did gremlins, so did top, so did mha, so did a lot of other alliances now fighting for 'karma.' they all 'enabled' npo. why are they not also being punished?

Because they made a choice that landed them on the winning side. They'll be judged in the future by the reasons for said choice. If they are honorable, and can be proven satisfactorily to the rest of the community, then maybe they wont be punished, this time. As for TPF, I wouldnt say they are being punished, they just simply ended up on the losing side of a war, same as NV was last fall, same as TSI right here. The terms handed down to TSI, by IS and TFO I might add, not Karma as a whole, are not meant to punish, but merely as spoils of war. This has been quite acceptable in the past and even today are relatively lenient. They are not going to destroy them as an alliance, or severely hinder their economies either. Im sure they will rebound quite quickly, especially with friends to help them out.

you can support a friend without supporting their actions.

this notion that they have to stop being friends because one made a mistake somewhere down the line is... well, its not right.

sure you are going to come back and yell at the top of your lungs 'lol npo was nothing but mistakes and evil this and evil that blah blah blah' but i would beg to differ on that point.

Id have to disagree with you there. No, you dont have to stop being friends, but being friends with someone even though are a bully is one thing. Having military treaties with them, thus enabling their bullying is quite another. You dont have to provide military support to be friends, which is what I think you are implying there.

Yes I agree that some of the alliances listed are guilty of that as much as TPF or MCXA or IRON. However, at this point in time, regardless of the reasons, the recent treaty cancellations etc, they are helping to level the playing field. NPO and IRON have had an almost total dominance over the game for quite some time now, and apparently that may change. In doing so it is going to open up a lot of maneuvering room for alliances wishing to take that top spot. Ive heard some say MK is going for a power grab, Ive heard some say Sparta. Maybe TPF, TOP, MHA, ODN, or any one of the sanctioned alliances. Maybe even a non-sanctioned alliance. If NPO and IRON fall, there is going to be some major plays made here on PB. Plays that are not possible as long as NPO and co remain dominant. Nothing against them, maybe they just play the game too well. I think the real change here after this war is going to be that alliances like NPO and IRON are not going to have any definite advantage. There will be no superpower that dominates everyone else, at least for a while. In the meantime, after this war there is going to be a hell of a lot of activity, being tech deals, recruiting, rebuilding, political plays, the whole shebang. Hopefully more players are allowed to play(eg FAN) and many more return to play, knowing that the balance of power has shifted.

[Augustus Autumn]

Id have to disagree with you there. No, you dont have to stop being friends, but being friends with someone even though are a bully is one thing. Having military treaties with them, thus enabling their bullying is quite another.

Any treaty except for an NAP is a military treaty. Do you suggest that having a PIAT and providing intelligence is thus supporting another alliance's aims? If so, I'd hope that you keep a close eye on your future treaties of any sort. Otherwise, you must be seen as supporting others and their potentially imperialistic aims.

[CptGodzilla]

you can support a friend without supporting their actions.

this notion that they have to stop being friends because one made a mistake somewhere down the line is... well, its not right.

sure you are going to come back and yell at the top of your lungs 'lol npo was nothing but mistakes and evil this and evil that blah blah blah' but i would beg to differ on that point.

GOONS via UJW

[SilvioArjunza]

They wanted to change the way business is run around here, but all I see is same old, same old.

Sic Semper Tyrannis...?

While I am a neutral party, I did (read: tried to) speak with IS about this, out of a curiosity as to who demanded these terms, when most everyone else was receiving white peace. I was informed that they care nothing for Karma, fought because of treaties, and extracted what reparations they deemed fitting. If you count IS and TFO's members, we're looking at 6500 tech and 60m being given to a whopping 60 nations. I think that, regardless of why they went to war, this is excessive. I'm sure that many of you disagree, and think that the reparations are fair, but I think it comes down to what is the most honourable course of action. This more definitely is not it, by my measure.

[Augustus Autumn]

I was informed that they care nothing for Karma, fought because of treaties, and extracted what reparations they deemed fitting.

You've identified the key disconnect on the opposing "side" of the war - that there is, in fact, no side and that the wartime coalition known as Karma is less organized than people believe. Just as the Initiative was labeled as being pro-Pacifica, alliances such as The Forsaken Ones have been labeled as being pro-Karma with all the rights and responsibilities that carries.

[Firkked]

The terms handed down to TSI, by IS and TFO I might add, not Karma as a whole, are not meant to punish, but merely as spoils of war. This has been quite acceptable in the past and even today are relatively lenient.

Isn't this one of the core complaints that got Karma rolling in the first place?

I concur that these terms are far from the crippling reparations we have seen in the past, but the whole "spoils of war" concept is a little incongruent with the justifications for this war on the side that the victors of this conflict have chosen.

[Yggdrazil]

Were not NV's reparation forgiven by one of the Hegemony's alliances just last fall.

Edited May 7, 2009 by yggdrazil

[cowen70]

Isn't this one of the core complaints that got Karma rolling in the first place?

I concur that these terms are far from the crippling reparations we have seen in the past, but the whole "spoils of war" concept is a little incongruent with the justifications for this war on the side that the victors of this conflict have chosen.

Hang on you think we are profiting from 4x our strenght declaring on us and pounding us for a week?

Seriously a couple of hundred tech ain't gonna replace the 20k ns I lost.

[Kilkenny]

This is correct, Elysium became the majority of TPF's government, Desperado is the only current TPF gov member from pre merger.

Don't forget me, or do I not count??

Congrats TSI on getting peace. I'll leave out my opinion on the terms except ot say expected.

Just wondering, if Karma is all about change, but nothing changes.... does that mean Karma=NPO??

[Mogar]

Don't forget me, or do I not count??

Also Peggy sue, I just checked the list, but PS wasn't in TPF at the time of the merger.

[Captain Flinders]

Just wondering, if Karma is all about change, but nothing changes.... does that mean Karma=NPO??

Karma is a loose coalition of alliances. NPO is one alliance.

Much has changed already.

[Kilkenny]

Karma is a loose coalition of alliances. NPO is one alliance.

Much has changed already.

But if that loose coalition of alliances does the "same things" as NPO, the very things they claim to despise, what is the difference?? What has changed?? other than the names of the alliances doing it.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.

[Poobah]

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.

Since Karma is a loose coalition, no one alliance has the absolute power that NPO had.

[Haflinger]

But if that loose coalition of alliances does the "same things" as NPO, the very things they claim to despise, what is the difference?? What has changed?? other than the names of the alliances doing it.

Kilkenny, I know what you're thinking, but it's really early. Let's give them a chance to show what they're going to do.

The really important stuff hasn't happened yet.

[Shurukian]

Hang on you think we are profiting from 4x our strenght declaring on us and pounding us for a week?

Seriously a couple of hundred tech ain't gonna replace the 20k ns I lost.

It's not supposed to.

[Captain Flinders]

But if that loose coalition of alliances does the "same things" as NPO, the very things they claim to despise, what is the difference?? What has changed?? other than the names of the alliances doing it.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.

I was more picking on a logistical inaccuracy than anything else. But like I said, much has changed already. Many, many alliances have been given white peace, tech dealing reps, or minimal reps at most. Look at the NoCB war as a comparison of how the Hegemony deals out peace terms where hundreds of thousands of tech was paid in reps. Much has changed already.

[Augustus Autumn]

I was more picking on a logistical inaccuracy than anything else. But like I said, much has changed already. Many, many alliances have been given white peace, tech dealing reps, or minimal reps at most. Look at the NoCB war as a comparison of how the Hegemony deals out peace terms where hundreds of thousands of tech was paid in reps. Much has changed already.

Unfortunately the promised change is just that - promised. With the admission that there is no central authority over the "Karma" movement and that the Voice of Karma (Archon) only has the power to advise while the alliance involved in negotiations retain direct control it's coming down to a lets-wait-and-see sort of mentality. The allusions to the reparations fitting the conduct of the alliances they're being imposed on have certainly not gone over as planned and cynicism seems to be ruling the day now.

When the war is said and done and all the terms have been posted, a true accounting can begin and people can really asses the actual accomplishments of this wartime coalition (both good and bad). Until then, nothing can be done except to look at what has already happened.

[Tyvok]

Does anybody want to explain to me why reps are required? Is it because TFO and Internet Superheroes took some damage? You two knew exactly what you were getting into when you joined this war. If your infrastructure is simply that precious to you then you would have been better off sitting out. TSI honored a treaty. These reparations are not necessary. All they are a sign of is that both of you two, both you alliances, are filled with and run by petty and opportunistic cowards. I recommend that any self-respecting alliance refrain from conducting business with these hooligans.

Well said Rebel. You speak the truth.

I see no wronge in giving them terms like these. Both sides agreed?

If you dont like them dont sign them.

We had no choice but to come to peace terms. We would have been nuked back to the stone age had we not done so.

So, after the whole TPF canceling their treaty with NPO episode, TPF gets attacked, and we honor our treaty with them. We back our allies and defend them. As a result of declaring on those who attacked TPF, we declared on their offenders. As a result, we get attacked by other alliances to defend their allies whom we attacked in defense of TPF. As a result, TSI has a hand full of offensive and defensive wars going on. Somewhere along the line, the first nuke is tossed, but by who? And at who? Our enemies decided to toss the first nuke at us, thus starting a nuclear war between some of the larger nations of each alliance. Both side's large nations get nuked to crap, some more than others. After all of this, I really don't see where any possible reason for us deserving to pay reps comes to place. Can anyone else find it? I'll give anybody here a $20 donation if they can find it. Yes, that's just how confident I am that nobody will be able to find a good reason to punish us.

We fought with/for honor, and so did the other side. Only difference is, we didn't whine about losing some infrastructure to help our friends. Friends>infrastructure. Fight for honor, not for profit.

o/ TSI

o/ TPF (I hope you guys will stick to the treaties next time)