An Announcement from The Sasori Initiative concerning the War

[Ragashingo]

It's been stated time and again that the leadership of the "Karma" Movement does not have the authority to dictate the behavior of the sovereign alliances under it's banner - simply put, they can't dictate or enforce the ideals of the movement when a member alliance under their banner decides to simply do as they please. Certainly, there is influence but that does not equate to the power to effect change. It's making a promise you can't necessarily keep. Again, I credit vision to the "Karma" Movement and the wonders of peer pressure but I do not recall the "Karma" representative having the authority to dictate behavior during the peace talks I attended despite their desire to have that very power.

In the end all there really is, is influence. As for that promise, all you can point out is that it might not be kept. It has been kept so and thats what matters, not any of this "well the power structure might maybe not work in the future" stuff.

An aggressor alliance getting minimal terms despite effectively beginning the Karma War while a much smaller one getting punitive terms for the sake of one of the alliances it fought simply wanting to get a reward for fighting is an inconsistency. The reactions demonstrated in this discussion by persons on both sides of this conflict clearly demonstrates that there is a perception of unfairness, correct or otherwise.

Different terms for different situations. Are the two sets of terms completely fair when view against each other? Probably not. But even your terms are fair terms.

Then, come negotiations, absurd demands get made and the most that the "Karma" Movement represenative is empowered to do is quietly point out that the leader of one of the victor alliances is out of line. Correct or not, what was said and what was done were not the same thing.

It sounds to me that the Karma leaders you speak of did have a positive effect in the peace process.

If the leaders of the "Karma" Movement are not, in fact, in charge of the movement as a whole then I am inclined to be pesimistic about the coming chances for the alliances who have yet to surrender considering the trend I've seen from the mob.

You are pessimistic because every set of terms so far including your own have been absurdly reasonable or, oh the horror!, just plain standard reasonable? If thats all it takes to make you pessimistic I'd hate to see what would happen if some actual harsh terms had been given out.

You indicate past performance as a garuntee of future behavior. I'll happily agree to do so - the problem is that the trend I see demonstrated is one of increasingly punitive terms which have little to do with the conduct of the alliances they affect during the course of this war.

Increasingly? They are varied sure, but if I have my timeline correct the most recent terms (those involving NSO, STA, ML, DOOM, etc) were a move back towards leniency.

[Ragashingo]

I'm glad to have received a verdict on this from a leading voice in the "Karma" Movement.

You're welcome?

[Roadie]

I die a lot.

In shame?

[Ragashingo]

Does that imply that Karma leaders have the power to overturn them?

If the terms had been unreasonable I absolutely think they never would have flown. If I'm reading whats been said correctly it appears that this may have already happened. That less than reasonable terms were first purposed but were lowered to a reasonable level after involvement from Karma higher ups.

[Druid]

In shame?

In honor. Never surrender, never give up.

[rsoxbronco1]

In honor. Never surrender, never give up.

You're a funny guy. Alliance wide surrenders are very rarely dishonorable. There are a few that come to mind, but I wasn't there for any of them so I'll withhold comment.

Not really sure what your issue is.

[Druid]

You're a funny guy. Alliance wide surrenders are very rarely dishonorable. There are a few that come to mind, but I wasn't there for any of them so I'll withhold comment.

Not really sure what your issue is.

I aim to please.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Druid

[Roadie]

In honor. Never surrender, never give up.

You should get some tech so I can raid you.

[Druid]

You should get some tech so I can raid you.

Working on it. Reestablishment of a nation is always difficult. Give in now and I may be lenient.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Druid

[Augustus Autumn]

In the end all there really is, is influence. As for that promise, all you can point out is that it might not be kept. It has been kept so and thats what matters, not any of this "well the power structure might maybe not work in the future" stuff.

The standard indicated to me by members of the "Karma" Movement I hold in extremely high esteem was not lived up to. In effect, I was led to beleive something which was not, in fact, possible. My perception is based on that experience, nothing more.

Different terms for different situations. Are the two sets of terms completely fair when view against each other? Probably not. But even your terms are fair terms.

I think you and I will simply have to agree to disagree on this matter - I'm inclined to beleive that your perception of fairness is colored by your own past experiences and that further debate on this point will simply become circular to the extent of revealing old battle wounds and attempting to paint the Initiative into a category that it simply does not occupy.

It sounds to me that the Karma leaders you speak of did have a positive effect in the peace process.

The effect was positive but in no way, shape or form did the experience indicate that the "Karma" Movement possessed some sort of overall controlling authority. When you are in charge you do not request - you command.

You are pessimistic because every set of terms so far including your own have been absurdly reasonable or, oh the horror!, just plain standard reasonable? If thats all it takes to make you pessimistic I'd hate to see what would happen if some actual harsh terms had been given out.

Thinly vieled insults aside, my pesimism is based on the demonstrated behavior of what I've come to term "the howling mob" parading slogans such as "Kill Them All" and issuing demands for the disbandment of the New Pacific Order and The Phoenix Federation among other things. If the leadership of the "Karma" Movement has no direct control but has promised that no disbandments shall take place, which of these do I beleive?

Increasingly? They are varied sure, but if I have my timeline correct the most recent terms (those involving NSO, STA, ML, DOOM, etc) were a move back towards leniency.

Instances of terms at all within the first few days were nil with the exception of The Order of Righteous Nations. The frequency of the events is increasing.

[ditchboy00]

I died a lot.

Of course, sir. It is an excellent turn that your alliance surrendered. Now you get to deal with me.

i surrender to Druid. Just saving us the time guys.

[Druid]

i surrender to Druid. Just saving us the time guys.

1 down.

Edit:

57 to go.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Druid

[Augustus Autumn]

i surrender to Druid. Just saving us the time guys.

Does this mean you're more or less cowardly than the rest of us? I've lost track.

[Druid]

Does this mean you're more or less cowardly than the rest of us? I've lost track.

The better question is,"Does Druid get a proper DoW?"

[Augustus Autumn]

The better question is,"Does Druid get a proper DoW?"

That's up to you. Considering that, aside from being a minor annoyance, you've done nothing to the Initiative I would hazard we posses no real cause to seek war with you. Should you have some greivance with us, feel free to make a declaration to that effect here and we'll proceed as you see fit. Cheers and good health to you.

[Max Rockatansky]

it still applies to other allies who simply honored their treaties, or as rabid karma supporters like to say, 'npo lapdogs'

I think I said once before on here and elsewhere that nobody's going to get exactly what they want out of this. Now, Kevin...on to you...

Yeah it does apply. To the many, many people who actively aided in NPO's atrocities or just sat and did nothing. You want to talk about honor? Let's analyze the word, and you tell me what you think it means:

Honor: n.

1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate.

2.

1. Good name; reputation.

2. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession.

I have never experienced this sort of treatment from NPO even as a supposed ally. Then again, when I disagree with something I'm pretty vocal about it. I remember several occasions when I tried to behave in a manner of high respect when it came to my particular situation. I wasn't even allowed to state my case, as it was presented to me as a " You don't play or we won't let you play, take it or leave it" situation that doesn't jive. What it boils down to is, neither they nor anyone else but Lord Holy Admin has that right. Anyone who's willing to face the guns and defend our constant screams to be treated with high respect certainly deserves it.

3.

1. Glory or recognition; distinction.

2. A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table.

3. A military decoration.

4. A title conferred for achievement.

I wish I had been able to negotiate TSI's terms, but that sort of thing isn't up to me. I wish they had gotten much better, especially in light of what some others have been getting, however, it's simply not my call. TSI is an honorable alliance as I feel are many others on the other side of this little spat. I'd like to see more of those individual voices ring out across the field. What we get though are the same stock answers to our many different questions, which make it very hard to take your points and counterpoints seriously.

4. High rank.

5. The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office.

6. Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor.

7. Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor.

This, I think we can all relate to. TSI's govt. deserve to be treated in such a fashion, If I were to name all the other alliances I felt also deserve to be treated in such a manner I'd think you would be surprised as it is a very long and eclectic list. I've made very good friends all over planet Bob and not just on the Karma side of the fence.

8.

1. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity.

2. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms.

3. A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity.

I'm sorry but I really don't see too much of this other than pride coming from the top dogs in the Hegemony. In fact, I remember a great many times when they would talk about honor and morality while forcing a knife in the back of just about anyone who wasn't up against the wall at that time. They've reneged on surrender terms, using it as a war tactic over and over again. They've used their considerable bulk to force others into isolating their own beloved Polaris brethren even as they were coming on here and spitting out bold-faced lies about "unbreakable bonds" and all that noise. Oh, and they tried to surrender before this fight even started(unless it was in fact another ploy, in either case it doesn't matter). Are these the actions of "honorable" people? I cannot comment about their chastity or lack thereof.

tr.v., -ored, -or·ing, -ors.

1.

1. To hold in respect; esteem.

2. To show respect for.

3. To bow to (another dancer) in square dancing: Honor your partner.

2. To confer distinction on: He has honored us with his presence.

3. To accept or pay as valid: honor a check; a store that honors all credit cards.

Ok, let's go over these...we're almost done. I know this sucks, but bear with me. This is what happens when you go throwing buzzwords around without putting any thought behind what you're actually saying. I've been guilty of it too, so don't feel bad. So, respect is bad according to NPO because nobody deserves it but them and their buddies, hence they refuse to show respect to those they view as "beneath them". The dance is still going so we'll see who bows to who there. I wouldn't call being in the presence of a Pacifican to be much of an honor except for a very rare few who have shown that they can think above their latest talking points. I'd say they racked up quite the bill and we're asking them to honor that check in blood, tech, and infra. Unless you want to pretend the last three years in CN never happened.

idiom:

honor bound

1. Under an obligation enforced by the personal integrity of the one obliged: I was honor bound to admit that she had done the work.

This makes sense, people are honor bound to uphold their treaties. That much is a given. I ask you though, if you remember what the first thing that happened the day we declared war was? Oh yeah, mass cancellations and tons of back-pedaling until NPO's allies were goaded into fighting like little children on the playground who talked all tough until the bully got a broken nose.

I'll say here and now, any alliance that jumped right in and defended their friends without hesitation have honor and deserve respect. The ones who did so only because they were rightfully exposed as too scared to fight the fight they've asked for(for at least the last two years I was on, anyway) do not. That's like saying " Wanna fight, !@#$%?" then when the kid with the glasses says "Yeah" and when it turns out he knows Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu you are like, "Yeah well, we'll just go over here then.". Yet, you still throw rocks from inside your glass houses held together with lies and misery. Problem is, doing all that caused you to destroy your own walls and now you've got nobody to blame but yourselves. I understand. I've made mistakes too. It sucks.

So yeah, long story short. Don't talk about honor when you defend the dishonorable. Do your homework before you talk smack. Oh and many hails to TSI and the hopes of brighter days ahead for the good people who make that alliance and others like it what it is. They deserve my sympathy, NPO and their "lap dogs" (see what I did there?) do not. They certainly didn't show any when they had the chance, nor would they again. They've come right out and said as much. Their cries shall fill my bowl of fruity pebbles and will taste sweeter than any milk i can buy.

[ditchboy00]

The better question is,"Does Druid get a proper DoW?"

we didnt get one so nope.

[Druid]

I'll say here and now, any alliance that jumped right in and defended their friends without hesitation have honor and deserve respect. The ones who did so only because they were rightfully exposed as too scared to fight the fight they've asked for(for at least the last two years I was on, anyway) do not.

So yeah, long story short. Don't talk about honor when you defend the dishonorable. Do your homework before you talk smack. Oh and many hails to TSI and the hopes of brighter days ahead for the good people who make that alliance and others like it what it is. They deserve my sympathy, NPO and their "lap dogs" (see what I did there?) do not. They certainly didn't show any when they had the chance, nor would they again. They've come right out and said as much. Their cries shall fill my bowl of fruity pebbles and will taste sweeter than any milk i can buy.

Yours is a post worthy of respect, sir. Despite its last line, the majority of its content is sound. However, that you give honor to anyone who was/ fought on the side of the continuum gives me reason to pause. NPO's transgressions are numerous; great and small. From dealing with small alliances to the later history of MDP-Webbing, NPO and the NpO strong-armed the majority of CN into compliance. From NADC to GPA, from LUE( and /b/) to Mushroom Kingdom, the sheer amount of ill-will that NPO has done to the greater lot of DTerra, alliances existent and non, nations old and nations gone, cannot be measured. Quite frankly, anyone that deigned to associate with the NPO after GW3 carries the taint of its actions.

Absolutely everyone knew that NPO's attack on FAN was more clean-up than self-defense. Absolutely everyone knew that the attack on GPA was horrendously out of line (though it is their fault for losing the war). Even WAE didn't deserve to go down(along with IAA). And yet, no one did anything. Nothing was said; nothing was done. Indeed, I was guilty of that at one time, but not after Kas's ZI. Never again. And now, here we are, letting members in league with NPO go free, with the additional door-prize of "honor" being given to them. Honor? After they helped to further the life of the NPO? Aided it and gave succor to it? Never. If they had any honor, they would be "staying" in the war to help end the NPO. To right the wrongs of the TI's egregious actions, both theirs and the continuum's. But no, we give freedom and "honor".

I do not accept it.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Druid

[Augustus Autumn]

Um, ok. I think you're incorrectly concluding The Sasori Initiative (us) and The Initiative (not us) are the same thing.

[Druid]

Um, ok. I think you're incorrectly concluding The Sasori Initiative (us) and The Initiative (not us) are the same thing.

You're with TPF, sir. I know who you are.

[Augustus Autumn]

You're with TPF, sir. I know who you are.

Now we become polite? Progress - excellent.

Regardless, post your crusading declaration or don't, it's really moved beyond the point of silliness with the posturing. And yes, I expect a series of dire threats, fear-to-thee and the like but I prefer to deal with actual threats. I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish but, whatever type of revenge that may be, I think you're looking in the wrong place. Take specific issue with the Initiative and something that we, as an alliance, have done or do kindly move along to your next soap box.

[Druid]

Now we become polite? Progress - excellent.

I have always been polite. Perhaps not CN's brand of " omg, bf forevur he he " polite, but I have been relatively civil.

Regardless, post your crusading declaration or don't, it's really moved beyond the point of silliness with the posturing.

Dramatist personas are necessary. Furthermore, I have postured no more than you have, though only in a different manner.

And yes, I expect a series of dire threats, fear-to-thee and the like but I prefer to deal with actual threats. I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish but, whatever type of revenge that may be, I think you're looking in the wrong place.

I am in exactly the place I need to be. Individuals such as you, spawn of the greater offenders like TPF, are just as responsible as your siring alliances. ESPECIALLY after you fought in NPO and TI's name. The point needs to be made.

Take specific issue with the Initiative and something that we, as an alliance, have done or do kindly move along to your next soap box.

I prefer this one, thank you.

[Augustus Autumn]

The point needs to be made.

I fail to see what that point is.

[Druid]

I fail to see what that point is.

That you deserve no quarter, much less the haphazardly thrown tokens called honor thrown on your name. The situation must be reconciled or you must redeem yourself. That is the point I am trying to make. That is the idea.

[Max Rockatansky]

Yours is a post worthy of respect, sir. Despite its last line, the majority of its content is sound. However, that you give honor to anyone who was/ fought on the side of the continuum gives me reason to pause. NPO's transgressions are numerous; great and small. From dealing with small alliances to the later history of MDP-Webbing, NPO and the NpO strong-armed the majority of CN into compliance. From NADC to GPA, from LUE( and /b/) to Mushroom Kingdom, the sheer amount of ill-will that NPO has done to the greater lot of DTerra, alliances existent and non, nations old and nations gone, cannot be measured. Quite frankly, anyone that deigned to associate with the NPO after GW3 carries the taint of its actions.

Absolutely everyone knew that NPO's attack on FAN was more clean-up than self-defense. Absolutely everyone knew that the attack on GPA was horrendously out of line (though it is their fault for losing the war). Even WAE didn't deserve to go down(along with IAA). And yet, no one did anything. Nothing was said; nothing was done. Indeed, I was guilty of that at one time, but not after Kas's ZI. Never again. And now, here we are, letting members in league with NPO go free, with the additional door-prize of "honor" being given to them. Honor? After they helped to further the life of the NPO? Aided it and gave succor to it? Never. If they had any honor, they would be "staying" in the war to help end the NPO. To right the wrongs of the TI's egregious actions, both theirs and the continuum's. But no, we give freedom and "honor".

I do not accept it.

Let's see here, apparently you're not familiar with my credentials. Come to #Athens and we'll discuss that as it's ancient history and too boring for this sort of medium. I will tell you that I know exactly what my enemies are capable of. Hence, I show them the proper amount of respect so that I do not underestimate them. That would be a grievous mistake that I made once and shall not do ever again. Ya gotta understand that honor is given where honor is displayed. TSI is an honorable alliance not just because they fought and got peace, but because they accepted this heavy burden in order to protect those who look to them for such protection. They performed with class, conviction, and yes honor. I will treat them as such, if that's alright.