Lyria Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) It's clear though, William, that enough ranked members in Pacifica views Moldavi as a threat. There isn't another explanation as to the attitude that we have seen on display. Yet at the same time, we know that Ivan personally spoke to Moo-Cows, and was cleared to run his alliance however he saw fit. Ivan spent his time arguing that anyone fleeing from a ZI sentence would have to sort out their own issues. He went to great lengths to ensure that he isn't ruffling the wrong feathers So, we're faced with an interesting scenario. Moo is (allegedly) fine with what Ivan is doing in NSO. The Imperial Officers view him as enough of a threat to engage in negative PR. Either Moo has less influence over the day-to-day actions of the Order than we are told, or there is a vast disconnect between the goals and will Emperor and his IO's. If we are to take Schattenman's post at face-value, then there is another gulf, the one between the rank-and-file NPO member and the IO's. It'd seem that Ivan coming back has raised a fair share of Pacifican eyebrows. The next moves of the Order will no doubt answer my question as to who holds the real sway in the alliance. edit: damn that thread moved quite a bit while i was writing that Edited March 10, 2009 by El Pilchinator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Moldavi Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I'm not saying he wants to harm the Order but, give his history and relationship to the Order, his presence leading another alliance does pose a threat to NPO in the form of drawing members away from NPO. That much should be blatantly obvious considering how much everyone is harping on how he gave life to the Order and whatnot. What is this "relationship to the Order" that you speak of? You imply that I have historically had a "bad" relationship with the New Pacific Order. Does everyone the hates me live under a rock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) So, if by some bizarre occurrence Moo actually listens to the dunces in your alliance who are calling Doppelganger and the others traitors, it would lead me to believe that everyone who has left Pacifica in the past 525 days are also traitors? We are in perpetual "war". But the conflicts which are judged as just police, clean up actions are states of conflict in which if somebody leave nobody calls anybody a traitor for that. Open warfare, conflicts judged as actual wars, and not just purely police actions/clean ups, situation with them is different. That is how part of our BR breathes. I'm simply asking if you were as pro-Polaris then, when your brethren needed you the most, as you claim to be now? I'm sure it was inconvenient at the time. I have voiced my concerns about a posibility of a conflict with Polaris and stated that I shall not engage them in battle. I did not. And still have no will do to so. You can judge that as pro or anti Polaris however you like, truth be told. I do not care. What has happened is for the Orders themselves to mend. Edited March 10, 2009 by Branimir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 This post sounds more factual than the original opinion piece.Now watch how this post will be twisted, ignored and confused with other posts. If it can't be twisted, it'll be ignored for the sake of the DRAMA. OH THAT SWEET SWEET DRAMA!!!! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragashingo Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Is there an approximate timeline specifying when the war with Jarheads will end, if ever? NPO wars tend to last for months after their opponents are soundly overwhelmed and beaten. Or they just don't ever end. I'm guessing that the NSO will need to look elsewhere for members for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookavich Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 You need to make up your mind guys. One week you are appalled and aghast that we close and move threads at times. This week a thread that allows our members to speak their minds demonstrates that the alliance as a whole hates the NSO and considers Ivan a threat. I would have thought that it indicates that we do allow people to freely express their opinions. I notice you didn't use the screenshot where I stated that given this is a unique situation and most of those who left are not in range of the war and have said they will aid our low nations at war. The other two are returning to fulfill their war obligations and will be able to leave when the war is over. I am well aware that Ivan did not plan this alliance out days or weeks in advance as I was speaking with him online when he thought of it and created it on the forums. I am also well aware that he did not "poach" or in any way recruit NPO members, nor does he have any intention to do so. In fact, for the duration of the Jarheads war, the NSO will explicitly NOT be accepting any NPO members. We have a very firm policy on deserters, i.e. those members who leave the alliance during a war. Essentially they are given an opportunity to finish the war and then leave or to be branded a traitor and made a target; I think that is fairly consistent with most other alliances. However, as I stated in my post to our members, this is a unique situation and therefore requires a more thoughtful response. Ivan Moldavi is a former Emperor with whom we are on amicable terms. And we will act accordingly. Good to hear, Moo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrilobyteMan Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Yes! I'm in this one! /me pelvic thrusts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) You're telling me that the two strongest alliances (and some others) on CyberNations cannot handle 400 tiny nations with very little experience? I am telling you what is the status of our conflict. What you think about it, is not my concern honestly, but should be of every Order nation. Edited March 10, 2009 by Branimir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willaim Kreiger Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Just because something has the ability to pose a threat doesn't mean it will. TOP or Gremlins, say, for example, could pose threats to the Pacifican hegemony should they want to, but that doesn't mean they will. The same is true with Ivan. I think it is quite clear that he wishes to be neither with your nor against you. He's neutral. If you view him as, and treat him, like a threat, you may end up forcing him into a position where he may have no choice but to be a threat. A self-fulfilling prophecy to an extent. I see no reason for you to have to go down that road. Effectively, this is exactly what I am saying. You can't go jumping at every shadow simply because there is potential. And in this case Ivan has expressly stated, privately and publicly, that he will not be a tool against Pacifica. So, what's the point in alienating someone who has publicly stated that he has no ill-will with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Note the words, state of open warfare-- highest conflict intensity state.FAN "war" has no such state attached to it. We are still at war with NAAC, etc. We are in perpetual warfare, but those little clean ups are not of value here. Okay then, better example, Vox-NPO war. Have people who left in the last 6 months been deserted traitors? For reference, open warfare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Fool Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 OP is old news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Obama Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 So you are saying that no members of the NPO can leave to join the NSO during a war with an alliance of 400 100 ns members? That war will take a long time, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrownso Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 What is this "relationship to the Order" that you speak of? You imply that I have historically had a "bad" relationship with the New Pacific Order.Does everyone the hates me live under a rock? Actually, I meant nothing of the sort. I'm sorry that my post could be construed that way. I was merely stating that given your prominent place in the history of the Order, as the first Emperor and one of its famed leaders, would make your new alliance a place NPO members might flock to. Hence, NSO has the potential to become a threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Okay then, better example, Vox-NPO war. Have people who left in the last 6 months been deserted traitors?For reference, open warfare Wow, six whole wars. Well that's more than they have with your allies in FAN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogar Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Actually, I meant nothing of the sort. I'm sorry that my post could be construed that way.I was merely stating that given your prominent place in the history of the Order, as the first Emperor and one of its famed leaders, would make your new alliance a place NPO members might flock to. Hence, NSO has the potential to become a threat. Shouldn't it be their members rights as individuals to make that decision themselves though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChileRelleno Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Just because something has the ability to pose a threat doesn't mean it will. TOP or Gremlins, say, for example, could pose threats to the Pacifican hegemony should they want to, but that doesn't mean they will. The same is true with Ivan. I think it is quite clear that he wishes to be neither with your nor against you. He's neutral. If you view him as, and treat him, like a threat, you may end up forcing him into a position where he may have no choice but to be a threat. A self-fulfilling prophecy to an extent. I see no reason for you to have to go down that road. I never said that Ivan poses a threat, my comment was in jest of the quoted material which I was making a joke of. I do not fell threatened by Ivan, nor the NSO, could care less at this point. At this point in time I harbor no ill will towards Ivan, and even have rethought my hostile kneejerk reactions to his and ES's coup. I definitely do harbor ill will towards those I feel deserted their comrades/alliance, regardless of the intensity of the aggression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 You need to make up your mind guys. One week you are appalled and aghast that we close and move threads at times. This week a thread that allows our members to speak their minds demonstrates that the alliance as a whole hates the NSO and considers Ivan a threat. I would have thought that it indicates that we do allow people to freely express their opinions. I notice you didn't use the screenshot where I stated that given this is a unique situation and most of those who left are not in range of the war and have said they will aid our low nations at war. The other two are returning to fulfill their war obligations and will be able to leave when the war is over. I am well aware that Ivan did not plan this alliance out days or weeks in advance as I was speaking with him online when he thought of it and created it on the forums. I am also well aware that he did not "poach" or in any way recruit NPO members, nor does he have any intention to do so. In fact, for the duration of the Jarheads war, the NSO will explicitly NOT be accepting any NPO members. We have a very firm policy on deserters, i.e. those members who leave the alliance during a war. Essentially they are given an opportunity to finish the war and then leave or to be branded a traitor and made a target; I think that is fairly consistent with most other alliances. However, as I stated in my post to our members, this is a unique situation and therefore requires a more thoughtful response. Ivan Moldavi is a former Emperor with whom we are on amicable terms. And we will act accordingly. Moo, you know that if they just posted everything with context it wouldn't be nearly as effective at trying to paint their opponents as villains. Out of context snippets are FAR more effective at moving the drooling masses. Such a remarkable and unprecedented concept in this world, guys...Moo and Ivan working out the minor dustup between their alliances in private, and a few members (likely on both sides) letting off steam in private? Welcome to...every single alliance ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homura Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 OP is old news. The news in Pacifica is better enjoyed live, without the Voxberal bias. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branimir Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Okay then, better example, Vox-NPO war. Have people who left in the last 6 months been deserted traitors?For reference, open warfare No. So you are saying that no members of the NPO can leave to join the NSO during a war with an alliance of 400 100 ns members? That war will take a long time, yes? Well we can not really stop anybody from leaving, but their action may be deemed as desertion. The war may last as long as it wants to, the important thing in this context is how long shall the conflict be deemed as one of open warfare. The judgment of that shall be placed on Order leadership and nobody else. Edited March 10, 2009 by Branimir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hizzy Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Does everyone the hates me live under a rock? Do you really want an answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Moldavi Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Actually, I meant nothing of the sort. I'm sorry that my post could be construed that way.I was merely stating that given your prominent place in the history of the Order, as the first Emperor and one of its famed leaders, would make your new alliance a place NPO members might flock to. Hence, NSO has the potential to become a threat. I believe the OP and the numerous implied threats around this forum of late have established fairly clearly that any mythos of Ivan Moldavi, former Emperor of the Order, insofar as the New Pacific Order regular membership is concerned is dead. Which is well and good to me, since I am not considered worthy of their praise then it is logical that I should not be considered a threat either, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nintenderek Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Wow, six whole wars.Well that's more than they have with your allies in FAN. Sorry, forgot to include applicants Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Okay then, better example, Vox-NPO war. Have people who left in the last 6 months been deserted traitors?For reference, open warfare Why not just ask your spy in New Pacific Order to get you the definitions we use for different levels of military actions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruvian Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Well we can not really stop anybody from leaving, but their action may be deemed as desertion. The war may last as long as it wants to, the important thing in this context is how long shall the conflict be deemed as one of open warfare. The judgment of that shall be placed my Order leadership and nobody else. So theoretically, if the leadership never declares the state of open warfare over, then nobody is allowed to leave Pacifica? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schattenmann Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 It looks like I was correct in predicting that this would be the edition of TWiP. Luckily for all of you, you left me out of it. By design. Is there an approximate timeline specifying when the war with Jarheads will end, if ever? Probably when IRON surrenders to stop the assault on their communications array. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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