Sengoku, have some honor.

[Charles the Tyrant]

 

This probably isn't a question for this thread, but why do the likes of New Polar Order and all those other alliances remain in that sphere. I know why the current power remain in their spheres, for fear of getting rolled. However if you're getting rolled every year and you exist in the same sphere, idk it seems kinda repetitive. 

 

Other than that, the general theme of the arguments in this thread seems to be MI6's response to everything. Now MI6 is getting rolled and they know they're getting rolled and probably for the same reasons they got rolled before. 

On an ending note, CN is a horrible broken mess. 
 

 

I can't and wont presume to speak for Polar but I can assume it is because Polar, MI6 and so on are deliberately kept outside the power structure so as to provide a "target" allowing certain alliances to create coalitions with a common purposes. I am sure retired daj (best daj) will be along shortly to expand upon why Polar remains where it remains but I would guess because Polar appear to be one of the more "principled" AAs in this realm along with their traditional allies. 

 

The only time it really changes is when the main power structure fractures and former allies turned enemies start looking for new allies to potentially defend against and attack their former allies. Or if an alliance decides to dramatically change its FA direction and reaches out to a previously untapped part of the web so as to improve its own standing against a potential threat.

 

It has happened a few times and the cycle always repeats. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Charles the Tyrant

[KahlanRahl]

I am confused as to why so many here insists on encroaching on our sovereignty as an alliance, and presume to tell us who is and isn't a member, or what our definition of a member of MI6 is. It seems to be a popular topic, understandably so given how much Myth has posted. But quite frankly it's none of any of your damned businesses what his status is on our AA.

 

Also lol Avakael. :laugh:

[Duderonomy]

No matter his title, Myth is on the MI6 AA. He has access to announcements, adds his NS to the AA score, and is counted as MI6 on his affiliation. That makes him MI6. If MI6 really didn't want him, he could have always formed a micro for them to protect.

 

That said, Myth does not represent MI6 as a whole. This thread does.

[Partisan]

What I find rather interesting, is how certain people collectively have determined that it is prudent to deflect the topic of this thread. The topic up for discussion is Sengoku spying on MI6. Specifying it further- The topic up for discussion is Petro (Sengoku) being caught spying on MI6, and alluding to this being a part of a larger scale effort (as per the logs).

 

 

Over the course of the thread, we have seen the topic hop between:

- Accusations that the logs posted by MI6, in which Petro alludes that there were more spy attacks, being fake/lacking credibility

- Something with a micro which was irrelevant to either MI6 or Sengoku

- MI6 lacking balls (???)

- The act of posting this thread at all somehow negating the gravity of the actions undertaken by Sengoku

- MI6 poaching a long time ago. We're still investigating how this may have played into the Sengoku-MI6 situation.

- Accusations of MI6 betraying Umbrella (???)

- MI6 being my idols. We are not entirely certain how this plays into the situation, and from what we gather we have been rather toned down over the past months.

 

I'm certain that I have missed a few topics. You are free to fill the list in. Now, I have been relatively uninvolved for a decent while. Most of my activity is limited to observing and commenting on the internal MI6 forums. A rather interesting coincidence is the fact that the various spins, switches and baits are conducted by parties who are rumored to be the ones looking to hit MI6. 

 

From an outsider looking in, it seems abundantly clear from the behavior displayed in this thread, that there has not been any legitimate chance given to MI6 in a while. The interaction between MI6 and its detractors has become a seemingly endless circle of baits, followed by a (verbal) MI6 reaction, followed by accusations and confirmation of MI6 'not changing' publically, despite a multitude of attempts on MI6' part to normalize relations with a variety of parties in private channels. I would be interested in seeing what exactly the endgoal is: Is it to isolate MI6 in order to eventually roll them? If so, has that objective not been achieved yet? I'm fairly certain that if you were to attack us right now, you would have all the support you need to curbstomp us. I'm fairly certain that MI6' main 'complaint' has more to do with irritation over this behavior, than it has to do with having qualms with your hostility. You are free to drop the gauntlet on us, and we will happily fight, if that is what is required to at last leave the past behind us.

 

 

If isolating and rolling Mi6 is not the objective, I would be interesting in hearing what is. I view most of the parties that are supposedly arrayed against us as politically adept and experienced entities. History has shown that these entities generally work according to their own, grander agenda. Political actions are small components of a larger machination. Every move is made with the intent of putting a chess piece into position. With that in mind- If we have been mistaken on your objective, what exactly are you hoping to achieve with the continuous goading and isolation of MI6? Or am I simply overestimating your political guile and ability?

Edited September 28, 2015 by Partisan

[Shimmer]

Interesting thread.

 

Sargun, nice to see you back in the land of having a nation.

 

[Kayser]

Damn Umb, plotting against your allies to satisfy other allies. That cold. If I was Oculus, I'd make sure to have some knife impervious armor on my back. 

[Keres]

 
Yeah, quite true.
I made it quite clear when they first formed they were the same old vanilla alliance like everyone else, except they turned out to be more active and to be decent poachers.
Other than that there is nothing special about MI6 that sets it above everyone else, however they were unlucky that their sphere crumbled. That Sphere was made of dicks imo so I'm glad that it did crumble. 

 

Ok, so then, considering the current state of CN, Doesnt it make sense for active people to look to active alliances? There arent exactly too many of those as you've pointed out... Around the Karma war where there was like, a million AAs with enough active players to hold them together... I was in Monos Archein (Chancellor :D) and then went to RoK, both alliances were even MORE active than MI6 is now, and thats how most AAs were back then... and both of them are long gone... how many great alliances went to !@#$ when people became bored?

 

But yeah anyways, point is, regarding the "poaching..." its more about people wanting to be part of an active AA at this point in the game... some people just want to click "collect taxes" and "pay bills" and be done for the month (ive had douchebags telling me accepting a trade was too much work), others enjoy having a sense of community to the whole thing still... is it really that much of a surprise people went looking for an active AA and ended up in MI6 since MI6 was built around being an active community rather than some half dead husk that burps only when war breaks out? Keep your alliances active and "poaching" wont be an issue...

 

Anyways, meh. Like it or not if your AA is dead, losing members is pretty much on you... sorry.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Keres

[Commander shepard]

 

Ok, so then, considering the current state of CN, Doesnt it make sense for active people to look to active alliances? There arent exactly too many of those as you've pointed out... Around the Karma war where there was like, a million AAs with enough active players to hold them together... I was in Monos Archein (Chancellor :D) and then went to RoK, both alliances were even MORE active than MI6 is now, and thats how most AAs were back then... and both of them are long gone... how many great alliances went to !@#$ when people became bored?

 

But yeah anyways, point is, regarding the "poaching..." its more about people wanting to be part of an active AA at this point in the game... some people just want to click "collect taxes" and "pay bills" and be done for the month (ive had !@#$%bags telling me accepting a trade was too much work), others enjoy having a sense of community to the whole thing still... is it really that much of a surprise people went looking for an active AA and ended up in MI6 since MI6 was built around being an active community rather than some half dead husk that burps only when war breaks out? Keep your alliances active and "poaching" wont be an issue...

 

Anyways, meh. Like it or not if your AA is dead, losing members is pretty much on you... sorry.

 

You're sorta new so I won't respond too much regarding MI6, unless you re-rolled in which case I would say something but no. 

Looking to join another alliance and poaching are two different things.

 

There is a written rule that you don't attempt to recruit members from other alliances, if your alliance is in a good position politically wise you could do so without any repercussions as long as you did it within reason which is what MI6 did. I'm fairly certain if they were in a good position they would behave the exact same way, maybe they still do to a lesser degree. 

[Monster]

 

Multiple issues..correct. MI6 on multiple occasions called you and umbrella out for openly favouring Aztec over TOP and MI6 (who you were still allied to at the time). Indeed, you actively plotted to bring about a series of events which would see yourself and your new allies in Aztec benefit directly at the expense of both TOP and MI6.

 

 

Or better yet, in your own words

 

 

we knew it'd create an arms race scenario where you wouldn't win

 

So instead you deliberately ensured that TOP, sparta and MI6 would never and could never win so as to make sure that Aztec and by extension umbrella would be on the winning side.

 

So, still want to scoff at the notion that MI6 were "undermined"? Or want to raise the stakes higher and do a "logs are fake" response? 

 

That's an interesting interpretation of what was said.  

 

We didn't have to do anything to ensure those FA efforts wouldn't bear fruit at the point in time I was referring to in that conversation. We've had this discussion with MI6 before on your forums, so there's nothing really new in the discussion you copy/pasted here. There was little chance of the treaties one set of alliances was pushing for  being accepted on the other end(especially given the opposition of the allies of the intended treaty target(s), which was well known and widely broadcasted) and we advocated against raising further suspicion by continuing down that route as other parties could move to countermeasures. The entire purpose was to avoid clashing between our two ally sets(heading off an arms race between them) and you are taking that to mean we were undermining one set of allies to give the other an edge. 

[hartfw]

What I find rather interesting, is how certain people collectively have determined that it is prudent to deflect the topic of this thread. The topic up for discussion is Sengoku spying on MI6. Specifying it further- The topic up for discussion is Petro (Sengoku) being caught spying on MI6, and alluding to this being a part of a larger scale effort (as per the logs).

 

 

Over the course of the thread, we have seen the topic hop between:

- Accusations that the logs posted by MI6, in which Petro alludes that there were more spy attacks, being fake/lacking credibility

- Something with a micro which was irrelevant to either MI6 or Sengoku

- MI6 lacking balls (???)

- The act of posting this thread at all somehow negating the gravity of the actions undertaken by Sengoku

- MI6 poaching a long time ago. We're still investigating how this may have played into the Sengoku-MI6 situation.

- Accusations of MI6 betraying Umbrella (???)

- MI6 being my idols. We are not entirely certain how this plays into the situation, and from what we gather we have been rather toned down over the past months.

 

I'm certain that I have missed a few topics. You are free to fill the list in. Now, I have been relatively uninvolved for a decent while. Most of my activity is limited to observing and commenting on the internal MI6 forums. A rather interesting coincidence is the fact that the various spins, switches and baits are conducted by parties who are rumored to be the ones looking to hit MI6. 

 

From an outsider looking in, it seems abundantly clear from the behavior displayed in this thread, that there has not been any legitimate chance given to MI6 in a while. The interaction between MI6 and its detractors has become a seemingly endless circle of baits, followed by a (verbal) MI6 reaction, followed by accusations and confirmation of MI6 'not changing' publically, despite a multitude of attempts on MI6' part to normalize relations with a variety of parties in private channels. I would be interested in seeing what exactly the endgoal is: Is it to isolate MI6 in order to eventually roll them? If so, has that objective not been achieved yet? I'm fairly certain that if you were to attack us right now, you would have all the support you need to curbstomp us. I'm fairly certain that MI6' main 'complaint' has more to do with irritation over this behavior, than it has to do with having qualms with your hostility. You are free to drop the gauntlet on us, and we will happily fight, if that is what is required to at last leave the past behind us.

 

 

If isolating and rolling Mi6 is not the objective, I would be interesting in hearing what is. I view most of the parties that are supposedly arrayed against us as politically adept and experienced entities. History has shown that these entities generally work according to their own, grander agenda. Political actions are small components of a larger machination. Every move is made with the intent of putting a chess piece into position. With that in mind- If we have been mistaken on your objective, what exactly are you hoping to achieve with the continuous goading and isolation of MI6? Or am I simply overestimating your political guile and ability?

 

You missed a big one.

 

 

These allegations come from those logs of you, talking to mi6 leadership and not some other alliance, and detailing your goal to get a coalition to attack DBDC/IRON/Aztec and then within 3 minutes discussing your efforts to get an Aztec and a Sengoku treaty.

The purpose of those treaty efforts was explicitly discussed as to make the war easier for mi6 in terms of direct counters only on mi6. Although as your government agreed, it would provide no help to your allies

 

 

 

If Mi6 wants a topic on honor, instead of Myth shitposting or continued fretting over 1 drunken failed spy op, maybe mi6 should address it.  Instead after denying it initially, mi6 government has left the building.  Then again, if that was my building, I would probably leave it too.

[Duderonomy]

Partisan, I know you came into the thread late, so here is my current understanding:

 

1. This whole thread is an overreaction. A single spyop is not that big a deal. Feel free to spyop me if it makes you feel any better.

 

2. MI6 must not care much about the spyop, because they haven't done anything about it. Posting on the OWF is mere propaganda. If it's so inconsequential that MI6 won't put their own nations behind it, why is it consequential enough for the community to care?

 

3. Any logs need to be screenshots, not typed. Otherwise, I will only take them from a trustworthy source.

 

4. I do not trust MI6 based on past behavior. If you want me to trust MI6, then that behavior will need to change over the long term.

 

5. If this is an actual conspiracy, possible but I'm not given that intel, MI6 would be better off planning for it and doing something about it. I have yet to see MI6 do anything except whine about it.

 

I'm not generally the most up-to-date with politics and planning, so anything I believe could be wrong. If you're getting your only information from me, you may be sorely misguided. I mainly enjoy arguing with MI6 because they're so active. It's possible that I need a better hobby.

 

Oh, and Auctor beat me to some of this.

[Auctor]

Worth noting that the distrust for XX/TOP on AZTEC's part came about because of things that happened after the Umbrella treaties were signed. Before that point, the treaties were signed precisely because AZTEC viewed Umbrella as the alliance we were most comfortable with in a sphere we were also comfortable with.

[Mogar]

This probably isn't a question for this thread, but why do the likes of New Polar Order and all those other alliances remain in that sphere. I know why the current power remain in their spheres, for fear of getting rolled. However if you're getting rolled every year and you exist in the same sphere, idk it seems kinda repetitive. 

As I said to your SoS, and I realize this is a hard concept for IRON to grasp, Some of us have this thing called loyalty towards our allies. RIA-Polar was signed on the eve of a war in which Polarsphere and SF were both targets, we provided our opponents with the perfect reason to hit both of us and formed a bond nearly everyone in the current hegemony wouldn't understand, besides perhaps NG-Pacifica.

[shahenshah]

No matter his title, Myth is on the MI6 AA. He has access to announcements, adds his NS to the AA score, and is counted as MI6 on his affiliation. That makes him MI6. If MI6 really didn't want him, he could have always formed a micro for them to protect.
 
That said, Myth does not represent MI6 as a whole. This thread does.

On a light hearted note, perhaps it's a variant of poaching :0

[The Pansy]

On a light hearted note, perhaps it's a variant of poaching :0

Isn't everyone MI6, they just don't know it yet?

[shahenshah]

Isn't everyone MI6, they just don't know it yet?

Not Mogar, haven't you read his novels on loyalty. Too many sheeps pansy...too many sheeps. Edited September 28, 2015 by shahenshah

[Unknown Smurf]

Worth noting that the distrust for XX/TOP on AZTEC's part came about because of things that happened after the Umbrella treaties were signed. Before that point, the treaties were signed precisely because AZTEC viewed Umbrella as the alliance we were most comfortable with in a sphere we were also comfortable with.

 

From Aztecs perspective, perhaps. But from Umbrellas perspective, not at all. They needed a way out of getting roped into the losing side of the war and Aztec was the obvious choice. Especially with the common ground on the protect the upper tier strat that you two have employed for some time (not trying to imply that its a bad strat as others have implied with the cowards gibes; its obviously not considering your lofty social status). 

 

Anyone who has paid attention to politics remotely knows that this is true to Umbs character and always has been. The great thing about Umb is they are so diverse, they have friendships with everyone so its very easy for them to sway one way or the other .

Edited September 28, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[Mogar]

I was in MI6, I disagreed with having a government member constantly harassing me in a non alliance channel and I was expected to be nice to them in alliance channels.

[Duderonomy]

Looks like another nation failed a spyop yesterday. Can we expect another thread, MI6? I was tempted to try a spyop, but couldn't get it cleared. I wanted a thread of my own. :(

[hartfw]

 

From Aztecs perspective, perhaps. From Umbrellas perspective, not at all. They needed a way out of getting roped into the losing side of the war and Aztec was the obvious choice. Especially with the common ground on the protect the upper tier strat that you two have employed for some time (not trying to imply that its a bad strat as others have implied with the cowards gibes; its obviously not considering your lofty social status). 

 

I think you are not understanding his point. From Aztec's side there wasn't going to be a war between Aztec and those other parties, and indeed there was a reasonable reason to expect much much closer ties going forward.  Indeed, several concrete moves had already happened on Aztec's side in that direction.  The idea of an overt plan to fight us, and requiring a response and a drawing up of sides was not on the agenda in any way.

 

It took a vast amount of foolishness and shortsighted blunders by certain alliances/individuals to create the situation that unfolded, and all of it that I am aware of occurred after those treaties were signed.  Umbrella my understanding is also saw the possibility of closer working ties amongst all parties, versus a war inevitably being instigated by those that would then lose it and need to be abandoned.  It was the logic FA development, and I'm still a little surprised an agenda against it ultimately was pushed so hard that the resulting war did happen instead.

 

(Maybe mi6 can chime in here, as they referenced a talk between Top and sparta about rolling Aztec earlier, but didn't provide details as to when that was.  And after all it is an mi6 thread.)

[Auctor]

It also wouldn't have been "the winning side" if Umbrella and AZTEC hadn't been on it. It would have merely been a redo of Disorder with a similar outcome.

[Commander shepard]

As I said to your SoS, and I realize this is a hard concept for IRON to grasp, Some of us have this thing called loyalty towards our allies. RIA-Polar was signed on the eve of a war in which Polarsphere and SF were both targets, we provided our opponents with the perfect reason to hit both of us and formed a bond nearly everyone in the current hegemony wouldn't understand, besides perhaps NG-Pacifica.

Well RIA swings both ways, Polar always shafts someone when they win a war that is connected to their allies which is to be expected to happen for any alliances that wins

But I'm not talking about honoring treaties or screwing people over.

I'm not even going to talk about the IRON thing, and I have vastly difference thoughts on that war than probably everyone else who plays the game. 

 

Take you for example, I can't really say you're loyal to RIA since if I recall you helped to roll RIA's ally. And that's really my point why can't these alliances move around like you choose to move around but on a larger scale. 

[Unknown Smurf]

The both of you are much better connected than I am to this but from my understanding.. 

 

It also wouldn't have been "the winning side" if Umbrella and AZTEC hadn't been on it. It would have merely been a redo of Disorder with a similar outcome.

 

The assumption there is that Aztec would've rolled with Umb if Umb had not made the FA efforts it had to make to securely tie themselves to Aztec (and get away from MI6/TOP/Spartas side on the war that was drawn up). 

 

EDIT: That is to say Umb choosing MI6 would've put Umb on the losing/opposite side of Aztec. Not pulling Aztec to their side and securing victory for MI6. MI6 was losing that regardless and Umb was smart enough to pick the winning side well in advance of the war. 

 

 

I think you are not understanding his point. From Aztec's side there wasn't going to be a war between Aztec and those other parties, and indeed there was a reasonable reason to expect much much closer ties going forward.  Indeed, several concrete moves had already happened on Aztec's side in that direction.  The idea of an overt plan to fight us, and requiring a response and a drawing up of sides was not on the agenda in any way.

 

 

War or no war there was very little chance that Aztec and TOP&Co were going to work well together. Umb saw that well in advance of the war you are talking about and actively chose your side over theirs. I don't believe that there was anyone who believes we were anywhere close to drawing up of sides but there was an active effort to choose Aztec over TOP/MI6 by Umb which seems to be what they are miffed about. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Unknown Smurf

[Mogar]

I attacked R&R when I was trying to join MI6 in the tier which meant in total I realistically did 30 million dongs in damage(Yet, still was somehow able to outdamage at least 15 other alliances who were actively in the war and had 20+ members.). Had I not been attempting to join MI6(who was at war with R&R during that) I wouldn't have harmed an RIA ally, and my application to MI6 was originally denied due to my unwillingness to harm RIA(I don't recall the exact wording of the question but I point blank said I'd leave MI6 rather than follow an order to hit RIA).

Betrayal on an alliance scale is much more significant than me fucking around in the low tiers, and if a war means your allies are going to get beat down for it, are you sure your friends who are asking you to participate have your long term interests at heart, or simply their own, and are making your power sphere weaker for later?

[Isolatar]

I don't believe MI6 was ever at war with R&R or RIA, but I may be wrong about that.