Tehmina Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 doesn't sound fair to be the way white chocolate described it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 To be fair, your senator voted to pass a really stupid set of proposals. To be fair, it takes three "yes" votes to pass a proposition. So you'd think that a person who REALLY wants to make a statement over this would spread the action out against all the people (or alliances where they come from - since he's already shown a willingness to attack people who just happen to be in the alliance and are not the actual senators) who voted in favor as opposed to just one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vespassianus Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 FAN is trying to play the tough guy, business as usual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) doesn't sound fair to be the way white chocolate described it... Because as an involved party, WC is obviously biased. To be fair, it takes three "yes" votes to pass a proposition. So you'd think that a person who REALLY wants to make a statement over this would spread the action out against all the people (or alliances where they come from - since he's already shown a willingness to attack people who just happen to be in the alliance and are not the actual senators) who voted in favor as opposed to just one. The point isn't that the other senators don't agree with FAN. The point is that the senator voting isn't from a yellow team alliance! His interests may align with the yellow team in peace time, but not in the future. It is in the interest of the other 387 nations on yellow to have senators who are aligned with yellow team alliances. As said in the OP, he has no (true) constituents. Edited July 18, 2014 by Unknown Smurf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Chocolate Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 The point isn't that the other senators don't agree with FAN. The point is that the senator voting isn't from a yellow team alliance! His interests may align with the yellow team in peace time, but not in the future. It is in the interest of the other 387 nations on yellow to have senators who are aligned with yellow team alliances. As said in the OP, he has no (true) constituents. 18 ou of 34 nations in The Javahouse League are yellow team. That's over 50%. Those that are not are either new and don't have trade circles yet or had already established circles when the switch to yellow was made. Also the senator in question currently has 79 votes - so obviously there are other nations who feel his interest are aligned with theirs. Kashmir (38 out of 40 yellow team nations) to be exact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 18 ou of 34 nations in The Javahouse League are yellow team. That's over 50%. Those that are not are either new and don't have trade circles yet or had already established circles when the switch to yellow was made. Also the senator in question currently has 79 votes - so obviously there are other nations who feel his interest are aligned with theirs. Kashmir (38 out of 40 yellow team nations) to be exact. tJL looks a little less yellow than the other alliances with senators on the yellow sphere at first glance so I apologize if you do identify yourselves as on the yellow sphere. I must ask though, why does Kashmir not support their own candidate on yellow since they have more of a yellow presence and nation strength is no longer a factor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 To be fair, it takes three "yes" votes to pass a proposition. So you'd think that a person who REALLY wants to make a statement over this would spread the action out against all the people (or alliances where they come from - since he's already shown a willingness to attack people who just happen to be in the alliance and are not the actual senators) who voted in favor as opposed to just one. Your alliance is listed as multicolored, with just over half of your members are on the yellow team. Perhaps some people in FAN, and probably throughout the yellow team too, don't like that an alliance with so little vested interest in the team's well being making decisions for that team. Max Power is an okay guy from what I could tell over the years but he voted for some really dumb proposals that adversely affect a lot of people on that sphere, and of course he wasn't the only one who did that which is why I'm ~guessing~ this announcement isn't specifically calling out your alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldConqueror Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 A fan DoW with gun porn does not disappoint! Remove your tongue from their butt and you may find it's not a DoW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 So far I'm happy to see the only Pink Team Proposal fail, so I consider myself well off on my team by not being negatively impacted by the changes. So while I like Javahouse and I'm not happy to see them hit, I can understand FAN's sentiment on it being as good a war reason as any if a proposal is going to hurt them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernkastel Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 I must ask though, why does Kashmir not support their own candidate on yellow since they have more of a yellow presence and nation strength is no longer a factor? Because we support Max Power and tJL as we always have (and they would back our person, whomever that would be), if Kashmir felt Max wasn't up to the job or couldn't act in both our interests, we'd look at replacements in conjunction with tJL. I approve of the job he's doing under the rather confusing circumstances with the new procedures in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killjoy123 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 While I am happy Color politics are somewhat coming back, but if what WC is saying is true then I dont know why everyone throws their support to FAN. Either way it should be fun to watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander shepard Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Can someone post the two proposals details? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfox101 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Here is what happened: One man in FAN decided (I assume on his own, but maybe not considering this announcment) to declare war on one of the three yellow team senators who voted for a yellow team proposition he disagreed with AND also declared war on one of the senator's alliance mates (who isn't even on yellow team but happened to be in his range). This happened on July 16. The FAN guy didn't do ground attacks the first night, but did send a bunch of demands via in game PM. Neither person declared on sent attacks the first night either. Then on July 17 the FAN person nuked the people he attacked. The people nuked did what anyone else in the situation would do - fought back. If this is what passes for a DoW these days, then we truly have achieved global stability. Do we want to achieve global stability? I find events like this quite entertaining. Have fun, FAN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President S O Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 It's easier just to kill them, I heard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teeters Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 I quite enjoyed this announcement!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berbers Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Color Drama is making a comeback, ahhhh yeah! Good luck and have fun everyone :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stilicho Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Proposal: Equality for all. We shall immediately implement a system to redistribute wealth from the wealthiest nations to the poorest. +3 happiness, -$3.00 citizen income. Yes votes from Max Power, KCahill and metalbot Presumably it was not this proposal that FAN took issue with, due to the fact that it basically just adds 3 income to everyone on yellow. The issue was likely with: Proposal: The Yellow team senate proposes severe penalties on nuclear weapons. +3 population happiness, +25% nuclear weapon purchase cost and upkeep cost. Yes votes from Max Power, KCahill and King James II FAN, I imagine, took that as being bad for nations with nuclear weapons, and good for those without. However I think they've done their maths wrong, as this second proposal is beneficial to nearly every nation on yellow (with a few exceptions): The cost of maintaining 25 nukes is a little over 400k, so let's call the 25% nuclear weapon upkeep cost a 100k cost. The benefit is 3 happiness, which translates to 6 income per person, which translates to (just under) 2 tax per person at a 30% tax rate (it's actually a bunch more than that due to +% income improvements and wonders, but let's keep it simple). That means that the benefit outweighs the cost once a nation has a civilian population over 50k or no nukes (or no HNMS, in which case more like 30/40k I guess), because 2*50,000 is 100,000. That all means that FAN has at most one or two nations who will not benefit from this proposal, while the other 85 will benefit. It may be that I've misunderstood the reasons for this war, but it is definitely the case that both of these proposals were beneficial to the vast majority of Yellow nations. Edited July 18, 2014 by David Stilicho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nooob Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Presumably it was not this proposal that FAN took issue with, due to the fact that it basically just adds 3 income to everyone on yellow. The issue was likely with: FAN, I imagine, took that as being bad for nations with nuclear weapons, and good for those without. However I think they've done their maths wrong, as this second proposal is beneficial to nearly every nation on yellow (with a few exceptions): The cost of maintaining 25 nukes is a little over 400k, so let's call the 25% nuclear weapon upkeep cost a 100k cost. The benefit is 3 happiness, which translates to 6 income per person, which translates to (just under) 2 tax per person at a 30% tax rate (it's actually a bunch more than that due to +% income improvements and wonders, but let's keep it simple). That means that the benefit outweighs the cost once a nation has a civilian population over 50k or no nukes (or no HNMS, in which case more like 30/40k I guess), because 2*50,000 is 100,000. That all means that FAN has at most one or two nations who will not benefit from this proposal, while the other 85 will benefit. It may be that I've misunderstood the reasons for this war, but it is definitely the case that both of these proposals were beneficial to the vast majority of Yellow nations. It costs me $340k to maintain 25 nukes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywall Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Heh enjoyed this as usual FAN. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmansfield68 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Good stuff FAN, senators beware. Vote from the rooftops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stilicho Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) It costs me $340k to maintain 25 nukes You have lead presumably, and many people don't. It's true, though, that some things can make the cost of the policy less (or more, such as if you have nukes but don't have uranium... for some strange reason). Edited July 18, 2014 by David Stilicho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpol777 Posted July 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Remove your tongue from their butt and you may find it's not a DoW. As enjoyable as that tongue is, this is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartfw Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 To be fair, your senator voted to pass a really stupid set of proposals. I would love to hear why those proposals should have not passed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattski133 Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Presumably it was not this proposal that FAN took issue with, due to the fact that it basically just adds 3 income to everyone on yellow. The issue was likely with: FAN, I imagine, took that as being bad for nations with nuclear weapons, and good for those without. However I think they've done their maths wrong, as this second proposal is beneficial to nearly every nation on yellow (with a few exceptions): The cost of maintaining 25 nukes is a little over 400k, so let's call the 25% nuclear weapon upkeep cost a 100k cost. The benefit is 3 happiness, which translates to 6 income per person, which translates to (just under) 2 tax per person at a 30% tax rate (it's actually a bunch more than that due to +% income improvements and wonders, but let's keep it simple). That means that the benefit outweighs the cost once a nation has a civilian population over 50k or no nukes (or no HNMS, in which case more like 30/40k I guess), because 2*50,000 is 100,000. That all means that FAN has at most one or two nations who will not benefit from this proposal, while the other 85 will benefit. It may be that I've misunderstood the reasons for this war, but it is definitely the case that both of these proposals were beneficial to the vast majority of Yellow nations. Your math is right, generally speaking, any mid to large sized nation benefits from this proposal. Personally, I get to profit from this decision AND keep 25 shiny nukes pointed outwards. FAN is taking an ideological stance here, with this warning. The next weapons related proposal is sure to offer a nice return for a sacrifice of ideology as well, and it will likely be popular with everyone but FAN, so the potential for popcorn has never been higher! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 (edited) Presumably it was not this proposal that FAN took issue with, due to the fact that it basically just adds 3 income to everyone on yellow. The issue was likely with: FAN, I imagine, took that as being bad for nations with nuclear weapons, and good for those without. However I think they've done their maths wrong, as this second proposal is beneficial to nearly every nation on yellow (with a few exceptions): The cost of maintaining 25 nukes is a little over 400k, so let's call the 25% nuclear weapon upkeep cost a 100k cost. The benefit is 3 happiness, which translates to 6 income per person, which translates to (just under) 2 tax per person at a 30% tax rate (it's actually a bunch more than that due to +% income improvements and wonders, but let's keep it simple). That means that the benefit outweighs the cost once a nation has a civilian population over 50k or no nukes (or no HNMS, in which case more like 30/40k I guess), because 2*50,000 is 100,000. That all means that FAN has at most one or two nations who will not benefit from this proposal, while the other 85 will benefit. It may be that I've misunderstood the reasons for this war, but it is definitely the case that both of these proposals were beneficial to the vast majority of Yellow nations. I'm not saying your math is wrong, but I'm not following it. Here is what I got: In order to test this theory I deleted a stadium. My taxes paid per citizen went from 178.61 to 174.66. => +3 happiness = $3.95 per citizen. If nuclear upkeep is 400k as you said (412.5k for me), we would need to make at least that to make it worth it. Therefore I would need 3.95x to be > 25% of 412,500 for this to be worth it for my nation where 'x' is the number of citizens. => x = 26107 citizens. Therefore any nation with less than 26,107 citizens would be adversely effected by this IFF they have full wonders. EDIT: Did my math above wrong, fixed now. Now looking at a nation with zero economic wonders I have the following givens (but 20 nukes for sake of argument): - 1 stadium deletion results in income going from 68.44 to 65.08. => 3.36 => Following the above math, they would need 30,691 citizens to make this profitable. Which is approximately 3k infrastructure with 3BR and full clinics/hospitals. EDIT: tl;dr So basically this screws over anyone under 3k infrastructure who has nukes on yellow, namely RIOT. Edited July 18, 2014 by Unknown Smurf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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