Xanth Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When a newly formed alliance such as Guinness drags it's members into a offensive war they don't want. What do you really expect? Congrats SPA! You can try to rationalize cowardice all you want but at the end of the day it is still a cravenly act by a group of callow individuals that would abandon their alliance midwar then sign with one of the attackers. If they did not want this war (which I know was not the case at the onset of the conflict) then they use their government position to pressure the alliance to begin peace talks. Hell these guys are pretty terrible communists if they are putting their own nations above the greater good of their aa in the first place. This alliance has Fail written all over it and I get the feeling they will have to answer for this in the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xanth Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When a newly formed alliance such as Guinness drags it's members into a offensive war they don't want. What do you really expect? Congrats SPA! You can try to rationalize cowardice all you want but at the end of the day it is still a cravenly act by a group of callow individuals that would abandon their alliance midwar then sign with one of the attackers. If they did not want this war (which I know was not the case at the onset of the conflict) then they use their government position to pressure the alliance to begin peace talks. Hell these guys are pretty terrible communists if they are putting their own nations above the greater good of their aa in the first place. This alliance has Fail written all over it and I get the feeling they will have to answer for this in the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unknown Smurf Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 That's all very well having a good grip on membership, but last time I checked Guinness was a democracy. Now $&#&$@₩ correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the majority always win in a democracy. Depends on the type of democracy, are you representational or direct? If the former then the elected leader can make decisions that the majority who voted him in doesn't agree with, if the latter you risk stagnation or uninformed decision making. But, I digress, my point is that the government structure does not matter, being active and talking to your members and understanding why they feel the way that they feel is much more important than the way they actually vote. What I guess I am trying to say is that when a quick decision needs to be made understanding the way your membership thinks will help you make a decision they will agree with if you do actually understand what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kiloist Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) Depends on the type of democracy, are you representational or direct? If the former then the elected leader can make decisions that the majority who voted him in doesn't agree with, if the latter you risk stagnation or uninformed decision making. But, I digress, my point is that the government structure does not matter, being active and talking to your members and understanding why they feel the way that they feel is much more important than the way they actually vote. What I guess I am trying to say is that when a quick decision needs to be made understanding the way your membership thinks will help you make a decision they will agree with if you do actually understand what they want. While you have a valid point, there were quite a few of them (who I see in this new alliance) who were for the war. Many of the ones still in Guinness were not. I'd know as I was not only present for the talks but heard many different opinions.. However, as I previously said, you do have a very valid point, it is important to check with your members on why they feel a certain way/how they will feel. Unfortunately it appears one of the worse possible outcomes for Guinness has happened. While I say this with a bad taste in my mouth as no matter the reasons, you don't run away in war (especially if you posted it - could have got someone else for that), I wish SPA the best. Edited June 5, 2014 by Sir Kiloist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I don't recall ever approving your application to join the maroon sphere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancellor Genroii Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When over 3/4s Guinness' active members list leaves at the same time, it's probably because there was an issue with Guinness itself. If any of you think our freedom is not deserved, what makes it your right to whip us back into Guinness? Fact is, we are the new Guinness, in a new shell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sir pwnage Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 This world needs fewer commie alliances, not more. There can only be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helios Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) When over 3/4s Guinness' active members list leaves at the same time, it's probably because there was an issue with Guinness itself. If any of you think our freedom is not deserved, what makes it your right to whip us back into Guinness? Fact is, we are the new Guinness, in a new shell. What issue was so glaring that you decided to accept the risk of being viewed as unreliable and disloyal, and just up and left? You have a significant debt to Guinness, that is why your freedom is undeserved in my eyes. Edited June 5, 2014 by Alduin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rileyaddaff Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When a newly formed alliance such as Guinness drags it's members into a offensive war they don't want. What do you really expect? Congrats SPA!Last time I checked, the heir of Lavender Town was calling you a rogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caustic Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Oh look, Vosegus is hiding in peace mode. Lead from the front bro. :ehm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurnipCruncher Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 But still, they didn't get permission to be on maroon. So you may have dodged one war...go green if you want to play peacenik. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CnaedmacAilpn Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When a newly formed alliance such as Guinness drags it's members into a offensive war they don't want. What do you really expect? Congrats SPA! Interesting, until yesterday AllenKalashnikov was still trying to convince TPC to go to war with you. Also it was admitted on the TPC forums (by him) that they wanted this war in revenge for the continuous attacks from people like you. So no, it was nothing but cowardice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CnaedmacAilpn Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 When over 3/4s Guinness' active members list leaves at the same time, it's probably because there was an issue with Guinness itself. If any of you think our freedom is not deserved, what makes it your right to whip us back into Guinness? Fact is, we are the new Guinness, in a new shell. A yellow one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CnaedmacAilpn Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 But still, they didn't get permission to be on maroon. So you may have dodged one war...go green if you want to play peacenik. I really think they have two colour options, one is yellow, to show their bravery in combat or brown to show the colour of the stuff they filled their pants with when confronted by having to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saxplayer Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I really think they have two colour options, one is yellow, to show their bravery in combat or brown to show the colour of the stuff they filled their pants with when confronted by having to fight. Nah, we ain't letting them on Brown :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CnaedmacAilpn Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Nah, we ain't letting them on Brown :P Excellent, so yellow it is then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimaera Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Oh goodie, more micros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Impero Romano Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Leaving your alliance during war often has bad results, one way or another, be it reputation or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walshington Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) When a newly formed alliance such as Guinness drags it's members into a offensive war they don't want. What do you really expect? Congrats SPA! Is this defensive war that you are currently fighting part of your other ongoing defensive war against Grey Council? Or do we need a new wiki for this new one? "On 5/29/2014 raiders from Lavender Town decided to raid GC for a standard 100 tech for peace. Some raid targets decided to accept the peace terms the GC government however decided to decline the peace terms and the raids deteriorated into a full out nuclear war. On 31/05/2014 at update LT took the initiative and launched 4 nukes at all the members in range in order to persuade them to peace out this was met by aid bombing of multiple GC members." Edited June 5, 2014 by Walshington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brezhnev Posted June 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Problem is...those deserters wanted the war,then bailed...while everyone else,including me...didnt want the war. The deserters wanted retribution of attacks on THEM!! That is a pure lie Vosegus: you wanted war just like the rest of us. And you told us the war was over. You told us peace had been reached, which apparently is not the case. But it is hardly our fault that we acted on what we had been told. You call us deserters? I cannot speak for our Comrade Members, but the reason I left is that you, SIR, lie, you circumvent the constitution, you undermine the authority of your elected government officials, and more. Im sorry that we left in the middle of a war, but as I stated: that war was over. At least as far as you informed us from your private negotiations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thejoshknight Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) I understand how this looks, and it's something I personally considered very heavily before resigning from Guiness. So, I'll be completely open and honest with all my reasons. Note, this goes for me. I can't speak for the other members who resigned. This is in no way the opinion of SPA, and doesn't reflect anyones thoughts but my own. I didn't resign from Guiness because of the war. I was an enthusiastic supporter of the war. I had been arguing for weeks that we needed to respond earlier, and was glad when we did. My nation was not involved in the war, but I did support it. The biggest reason I resigned was the peace talks that followed. I was in OSA for a long time, and we were democratic. We voted on everything major, treaties, war, peace. Our gov. did not tell anyone we would go for peace until the membership told the gov. that we wanted peace to be negotiated, and we voted on that peace treaty. If the alliance said no, even if all gov. supported it, we would not have been at peace. I was in Guinness under the impression that the same thing was in place. But, a high ranking official on the forums came and posted logs of peace discussions, and then told us to peace out if we were offered it. Peace had been made without asking the alliances opinion in any even semi-formal way. I'd like to say that I would have supported that peace. In my opinion we had shown that we would stand up for ourselves. Enough had been done, and I thought it had been handled reasonably well for our first war. I knew the conflict could escalate if it dragged on. That wasn't my issue. The issue was that we never had a serious discussion about peace. We never voted. When I made a long post asking if Guinness was a democratic alliance, I got responses ranging from "no, we're semi-democratic" to "the constutution doesn't say we have to vote on that" and "it's clear the alliance wanted peace." The issue? Half our members hadn't even been on the forums that day, many others had voiced the same wish for further discussion on peace I had, and again, we never voted. No majority had expressed it's opinion. Many didn't even know we were talking about peace at all. So, I made that post. I got the above responses. I stated very clearly that if Guiness was not going to be a Democratic alliance I was going to resign, and that it was fine if that wasn't the direction the alliance wanted to go. I would leave with no hard feelings. I was told to wait, let things settle down. But no one could give me a committment that Guiness would be Democratic going forward. So I did what I said I would. My post, and resignation was made irregardless of the decisions to resign that the members before me had made. Those decisions are part what caused me to end up in SPA. I realize how it looks from the outside. But all those members who left? I considered them some of the most rational members of the alliance, some of the most active, the ones who helped me when I needed nation advice, the ones who wanted Democracy in the same way that I did. They were my friends. So, when I decided to leave Guinness, I had a few options. I could try to find a brand new alliance, someone I knew nothing about, or I could follow my friends. SPA will also vote on every single major issue, which is the single MOST important thing to me, more than anything else. Yesterday morning, before I went to work, I was trying to find members for a Guiness trade circle I was in. I was 100% dedicated to seeing Guiness grow. But by that night, I realized that the differences in what I wanted in an alliance and how it's managed and what the reality of that day had been were two completely seperate things. When I resigned, I said I wanted to keep in touch with everyone left( I believe it's 11 out of the 24 at this point, and I fully expect those 11 to continue to improve the alliance on their own path.) I will still try too. So, that's my story. That's why I left. Who SPA chooses to ally with is not up to me, it's up to a vote. If that vote goes one way, I'll support the will of the alliance. I'm sorry if my "reputation" is sullied because of this, but that principle is more important to me. Anyway, that's all I've got. Edited June 5, 2014 by thejoshknight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 I'm no scientist, but having the guy that literally posted the DoW on LT among your number really terribles up this whole "Vosegus didn't listen!" line of argument, appearancewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brezhnev Posted June 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Gentlemen, here are logs from IRC regarding us being told that peace had been reached, including questions as to why we didnt have a say in that peace: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/inI17dNR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auctor Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 Gentlemen, here are logs from IRC regarding us being told that peace had been reached, including questions as to why we didnt have a say in that peace: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/inI17dNRyou do realize that wars customarily don't end until there's an announcement to that effect in a way more public medium, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franz Ferdinand Posted June 5, 2014 Report Share Posted June 5, 2014 you do realize that wars customarily don't end until there's an announcement to that effect in a way more public medium, right?Lavender Town hereby offers white peace to all former nations of Guinness riding the Socialist People's Alliance AA as of the timing of this announcement.Signed,Franz Ferdinand, Mayor of Lavender Town Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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