End of the NPO | VE FRONT

[Stonewall14]

Well fought VE...I salute you...o/[img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/nuke.gif[/img]

[Johnny Apocalypse]

*insert argument about peace mode here*

[ComeAndSee]

We all know who the clear winners are, the 100k NS nations that get beat down to the 20-50k range with max wonders and 8000 tech and 0 infrastructure then have a party.

Edited July 14, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Johnny Apocalypse' timestamp='1342227981' post='3009921']
*insert argument about peace mode here*
[/quote]
Wow look at your lower tier...

[BDRocks]

[quote name='Ogaden' timestamp='1342224565' post='3009894']
Well I'll be out of this cycle in 3 days so they can bring it
[/quote]
I would but fighting and in anarchy. I'll see you eventually.

[Johnny Apocalypse]

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1342249845' post='3010046']
Wow look at your lower tier...
[/quote]

wow look at most of your coalition....

etc. etc.

[Trout]

Fun warring you guys. GL

[Kowalski]

[quote name='simon2269' timestamp='1342180591' post='3009660']
Would VE be a better ally if they had put a much larger percentage of their NS in peacemode, prolonged their involvement in the conflict whilst doing and receveiving the same amount of damage ouver the extended period of time by cycling in and out of PM?
[/quote]
To some, yes, because while it is less effective militarily it signifies more of a political commitment and there's nothing more that some of that coalition want than for VE to commit politically which would tear us further away from our other allies. In fact I'd go so far as to say they know that they're going to lose the war and therefore don't care one jot about how much damage VE does on the battlefield, they just want to make sure that VE commits as much to their coalition as possible and therefore puts a strain on ties with our other allies as it increases the chances of our future lying in that direction. VE of course was well aware of this and wanted no part in the game of silly buggers, given that we had one ally who we wanted to defend militarily and others who we wanted to maintain our friendship with. This is why those critical of VE were pissed when we didn't buy into the coalition philosophy and attack NG or go into peace mode, because it meant they had less chance to get their claws into us, damage our relationship with our other allies and use that to their benefit in future conflicts.

[New Frontier]

As one of Viridia's allies on ~the other side~, I can say with complete sincerity that if they put the kind of commitment into helping Deinos that they have shown here, I will be more than pleased to call them friends.

VE watched their nation strength be cut in half, fighting against myriad opponents in defence of an ally that is not exactly a plus politically. The fact that GOD is now attacking them publicly for it says pretty much all that needs to be said.

[deathcat]

[quote name='Boogeyman657' timestamp='1342281426' post='3010131']
Fun warring you guys. GL
[/quote]
Boog... you'd have fun warring a wall... as long as you got some casualties out of it

oo/

[Monster]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1342288577' post='3010167']
To some, yes, because while it is less effective militarily it signifies more of a political commitment and there's nothing more that some of that coalition want than for VE to commit politically which would tear us further away from our other allies. In fact I'd go so far as to say they know that they're going to lose the war and therefore don't care one jot about how much damage VE does on the battlefield, they just want to make sure that VE commits as much to their coalition as possible and therefore puts a strain on ties with our other allies as it increases the chances of our future lying in that direction. VE of course was well aware of this and wanted no part in the game of silly buggers, given that we had one ally who we wanted to defend militarily and others who we wanted to maintain our friendship with. This is why those critical of VE were pissed when we didn't buy into the coalition philosophy and attack NG or go into peace mode, because it meant they had less chance to get their claws into us, damage our relationship with our other allies and use that to their benefit in future conflicts.
[/quote]

I just think there's a certain irony given VE's general pro coalition warfare stances in the past. VE doing damage to someone on the opposing side would be a boon, instead what VE did brought more NS in, which is the problem.

GOD is ultimately the main alliance publicly identified with the coalition, and consequently, the attempts by VE to minimize that fact and pretend GOD is a fringe alliance is what makes this line of thought incredibly odd. What benefits the overall coalition benefits GOD, ultimately. I didn't see the logic in attacking NPO other than just saying "we're going with the strictest interpretation of the treaty possible, so we can hit an alliance that other people don't mind us hitting so much." I don't think anyone was expecting to get their claws into VE. It's just if VE was going to help GOD, there was one logical route which was to actually try to maximize the strategic advantage their entrance gave.

To be honest, VE might as well have stayed out and it'd have had the same overall impact because even their target alliance wasn't damaged and the NS they brought in through NPO's treaties more than overwhelmed their presence.

[Melancholy Culkin]

Prepare thine house VE.

[jraenar]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1342293113' post='3010189']
To be honest, VE might as well have stayed out and it'd have had the same overall impact because even their target alliance wasn't damaged
[/quote]
I believe NPO would take issue with that. Dropping from 10.9 million to 8.6 million is more than a 20% drop. They got damaged.

[LAAT501legion]

Congratulations VE.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Kowalski' timestamp='1342288577' post='3010167']
To some, yes, because while it is less effective militarily it signifies more of a political commitment and there's nothing more that some of that coalition want than for VE to commit politically which would tear us further away from our other allies. In fact I'd go so far as to say they know that they're going to lose the war and therefore don't care one jot about how much damage VE does on the battlefield, they just want to make sure that VE commits as much to their coalition as possible and therefore puts a strain on ties with our other allies as it increases the chances of our future lying in that direction. VE of course was well aware of this and wanted no part in the game of silly buggers, given that we had one ally who we wanted to defend militarily and others who we wanted to maintain our friendship with. This is why those critical of VE were pissed when we didn't buy into the coalition philosophy and attack NG or go into peace mode, because it meant they had less chance to get their claws into us, damage our relationship with our other allies and use that to their benefit in future conflicts.
[/quote]

I hate to be a !@#$%, but if you don't want to use your power to help GOD then cancel the treaty. Signing an eternal MADP (Even if you somehow magically uneternally downgrade) is a "Political Commitment" in the first place.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Omniscient1

[Steve Buscemi]

VE is on the of better examples of how to fight. In my old age I care less about winning or losing one war vs. my overall fun. I've lost and won wars and the one thing (that we can control) that will kill our Planet is peace mode and it's mass usage. It used to be "the hegemony" but with modern warchest and Manhattan wonders, the weak [i]can [/i]stand up to the strong. Kaskus being the last one that comes to mind. There is no reason to stay in peace mode other than pure cowardice. It's not Friends > Infra, it's Fun > Cowardice. Tactically, it's awful to keep so many in peace mode. Don't get my wrong, I'm loving that I can 3v1 the few uppers not in peace mode.

I think the only solution to this is forced disbandment, something I usually quite disapprove of. But in cases like these where alliances such as MXCA and Sparta, ignorantly use peace mode, the only solution is disbandment. We need to somehow rid these leaders of their positions. So disbandment might be harsh, but at least get them to band their current (awful) leadership from ever running again and ruining our world.

A world built on war doesn't survive without it.

[Monster]

[quote name='jraenar' timestamp='1342297586' post='3010223']
I believe NPO would take issue with that. Dropping from 10.9 million to 8.6 million is more than a 20% drop. They got damaged.
[/quote]

I can concede they took some damage, but it hasn't really altered the course of events for GOD as opposed to other courses of action especially since it's going to keep dragging out and VE left. That's kind of why people we're like "meh" when VE declared on NPO since it wasn't really the desired outcome for VE's intervention. I

edit: worded too strongly before in the post this is a response to.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Roquentin

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1342305433' post='3010258']
I can concede they took some damage, but it hasn't really altered the course of events for GOD as opposed to other courses of action especially since it's going to keep dragging out and VE left. That's kind of why people we're like "meh" when VE declared on NPO since it wasn't really the desired outcome for VE's intervention. I

edit: worded too strongly before in the post this is a response to.
[/quote]

From what I am gathering, SF's side wanted VE to hit NG correct? Frankly, that is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Had VE hit NG, NPO would most likely still have DoWed VE, which would have still most likely brought in TIO/TPF/Oceania but the end result would be VE losing much more NS than they actually did for an ally (GOD) who hid in PM throughout the entire time VE was at war. So, in other words, VE would have been used even more by GOD than they already have been. Now had GOD actually came out of PM to hit people, I could see where you are coming from, but this did not happen.

[Trout]

[quote name='deathcat' timestamp='1342292582' post='3010186']
Boog... you'd have fun warring a wall... as long as you got some casualties out of it

oo/
[/quote]
You know me so well.

[Trout]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1342302598' post='3010249']
VE is on the of better examples of how to fight. In my old age I care less about winning or losing one war vs. my overall fun. I've lost and won wars and the one thing (that we can control) that will kill our Planet is peace mode and it's mass usage. It used to be "the hegemony" but with modern warchest and Manhattan wonders, the weak [i]can [/i]stand up to the strong. Kaskus being the last one that comes to mind. There is no reason to stay in peace mode other than pure cowardice. It's not Friends > Infra, it's Fun > Cowardice. Tactically, it's awful to keep so many in peace mode. Don't get my wrong, I'm loving that I can 3v1 the few uppers not in peace mode.

I think the only solution to this is forced disbandment, something I usually quite disapprove of. But in cases like these where alliances such as MXCA and Sparta, ignorantly use peace mode, the only solution is disbandment. We need to somehow rid these leaders of their positions. So disbandment might be harsh, but at least get them to band their current (awful) leadership from ever running again and ruining our world.

A world built on war doesn't survive without it.
[/quote]
I don't think MXCA or Sparta will ever stop being awful

[Ardus]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1342300321' post='3010240']
I hate to be a !@#$%, but if you don't want to use your power to help GOD then cancel the treaty. Signing an eternal MADP (Even if you somehow magically uneternally downgrade) is a "Political Commitment" in the first place.
[/quote]
The treaty is not eternal; the belief otherwise is a common misconception. Article 5 of the Balkan Entente expressly provides means by which the agreement may be canceled. Article 6 provides for amendment.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1342321902' post='3010348']
The treaty is not eternal; the belief otherwise is a common misconception. Article 5 of the Balkan Entente expressly provides means by which the agreement may be canceled. Article 6 provides for amendment.
[/quote]

ok gotcha. Even more reason to cancel then if they're so angry about GOD's "claws"

[Lord Boris]

[quote name='Boogeyman657' timestamp='1342318581' post='3010327']
I don't think MXCA or Sparta will ever stop being awful
[/quote]


Having seen the warchest levels of the former recently, I can agree with that sentiment.

[Monster]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1342314325' post='3010306']
From what I am gathering, SF's side wanted VE to hit NG correct? Frankly, that is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Had VE hit NG, NPO would most likely still have DoWed VE, which would have still most likely brought in TIO/TPF/Oceania but the end result would be VE losing much more NS than they actually did for an ally (GOD) who hid in PM throughout the entire time VE was at war. So, in other words, VE would have been used even more by GOD than they already have been. Now had GOD actually came out of PM to hit people, I could see where you are coming from, but this did not happen.
[/quote]

I'm not sure on the specifics. I'm not privy to what was asked of VE before their entrance. I just know VE hitting NPO was something they didn't want.

[Gibsonator21]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1342314325' post='3010306']
From what I am gathering, SF's side wanted VE to hit NG correct? Frankly, that is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Had VE hit NG, NPO would most likely still have DoWed VE, which would have still most likely brought in TIO/TPF/Oceania but the end result would be VE losing much more NS than they actually did for an ally (GOD) who hid in PM throughout the entire time VE was at war. So, in other words, VE would have been used even more by GOD than they already have been. Now had GOD actually came out of PM to hit people, I could see where you are coming from, but this did not happen.
[/quote]
That's assuming TIO/TPF/Oceania would oA on VE. I don't know whether they would or wouldn't, so I'm not gonna argue with you about it. NG would have had a lot more slots taken up on them, though. And hey, maybe if VE hit NG, GOD (etc.) would have brought their upper tiers out together.