An Important Seaworthy Announcement

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1319139809' post='2829401']
Me thinks you need to look up the definition of "apologist" Also CNtel has made a fool of you today. If you want I can post a UE DoW screencapped pic to CNtel too. I can even put a pink pony in it, you know how much I like those, don't you?
[/quote]
Well, I mean, you'd say that if you were preparing a curbie. Nobody will know for sure until the 22nd rolls around.

[Locke]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1319143055' post='2829422']
Actually RIA signed with SOS Brigade because of...Locke...
[/quote]
Wait, what? When the ODP was signed I was pretty new to the alliance and knew nothing about RIA. When the MDP was signed I wasn't even around or in any form of government. When the MDoAP was signed I was MoFA, but I wouldn't say I'd really gotten to know you guys till January when I became intimately acquainted with what good allies you were (hey Delta). Either you're letting your future perceptions color your thoughts on past events, or you are creepy stalkers who learned everything about me without me knowing.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1319139411' post='2829396']
Factor in the fact that they just finished stomping UPN and are gearing up to stomp CoJ simply because they thirst for more blood than SOS could provide. Who is next?
[/quote]

Sounds like the herd has some really good sources of information :v


You're a joke. Plain and simple.

[USMC123]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1319145328' post='2829443']
Sounds like the herd has some really good sources of information :v


You're a joke. Plain and simple.
[/quote]

You know, even if HoT was right and you were gearing up to stomp CoJ, I honestly don't think too many people would mind.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1319139411' post='2829396']
Factor in the fact that they just finished stomping UPN and are gearing up to stomp CoJ simply because they thirst for more blood than SOS could provide. Who is next?
[/quote]

The latest round of wars are unrelated to each other, but God/Allah/Gaia/Yahweh/Vishnu/[insert deity here] willing, your pretty little ponies will be next...and your little dog too, Dorothy!

[img]http://www.sowhowins.com/Character%20Pictures/Wicked%20Witch-of-the%20West.jpg[/img]

[Venizelos]

kind of expected

[Ogaden]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1319144739' post='2829440']
Wait, what? When the ODP was signed I was pretty new to the alliance and knew nothing about RIA. When the MDP was signed I wasn't even around or in any form of government. When the MDoAP was signed I was MoFA, but I wouldn't say I'd really gotten to know you guys till January when I became intimately acquainted with what good allies you were (hey Delta). Either you're letting your future perceptions color your thoughts on past events, or you are creepy stalkers who learned everything about me without me knowing.
[/quote]

Yeah man I go through your garbage :v

But seriously yeah I forgot about that, I guess you became such a primary link and part of the SOS/RIA relationship I forgot you weren't around in the beginning.

Edit: and get off my lawn! Damn kids these days

Edited October 20, 2011 by James Dahl

[Whitney]

Do you guys remember that magical time when Mutual Defense treaty partners defended their allies?

[USMC123]

[quote name='Whitney' timestamp='1319153133' post='2829515']
Do you guys remember that magical time when Mutual Defense treaty partners defended their allies?
[/quote]

Yes, unfortunately for SOS (and the rest of the world) they only have ODP type treaties now.

[Kellory]

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1319095357' post='2829167']
So yeah, also, I didn't mean to imply that we hated Arrnea, just that we were not very happy with his NukeKastel thread, etc, so we're not exactly keen to get rolled for him.
[/quote]

[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102883&view=findpost&p=2736454]And yet Invicta seemed happy to support at least 1 other dumb idea of Arrnea's.[/url]

So what makes this different from the SOS-NsO war?

Since it is clear from past conflicts that just because Arrnea is behind the war it is not an impediment to support.

Just kinda curious really.

[ShouAS]

[quote name='Kellory' timestamp='1319161845' post='2829580']
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102883&view=findpost&p=2736454]And yet Invicta seemed happy to support at least 1 other dumb idea of Arrnea's.[/url]

So what makes this different from the SOS-NsO war?

Since it is clear from past conflicts that just because Arrnea is behind the war it is not an impediment to support.

Just kinda curious really.
[/quote]


I think what makes it different is that Invicta have been allied to Europa (the alliance that Bern is in) for a long time, so Arrnea was trying to have people nuke Invicta's allies.

Where as they have no tie to NsO what soever, so supported their allies in that.

[dane0]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1318967148' post='2828074']
Yeah the UPN war, the Legion-Tetris war and this one are actual one of the most clear cut wars we have seen.
[/quote]
It makes sense now. It's all one war. NCC is plotting to destroy us all, because I didn't join NG!

[Mogar]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1319091305' post='2829144']
I really don't get it why everyone is suddenly stating they dislike SOS cause of Arrnea. I mean, you've been allied to them more than a year (IIRC), I think the treaty that was signed even had Arrnea's name on it as SOS-leader and never ever have I seen anything from you, INT or invicta at any time that shows how much you dislike him. You guys knew how SOS and Arrnea was when you signed them, I'm getting pretty sick hearing from SOS's allies that they hate Arrnea while in reality he was the one they signed with.

I don't buy it.
[/quote]
I wasn't aware you publicly talked !@#$ about alliances you hold treaties with, pretty sure most treaties have a clause that says you shouldn't do that type of thing.

Edited October 21, 2011 by Mogar

[porksaber]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319164273' post='2829615']
I wasn't aware you publicly talked !@#$ about alliances you hold treaties with, pretty sure most treaties have a clause that says you shouldn't do that type of thing.
[/quote]

I wasn't aware that any of said talking has occurred.

[Mogar]

[quote name='porksaber' timestamp='1319166478' post='2829646']
I wasn't aware that any of said talking has occurred.
[/quote]
Maybe we've had feelings that Arrnea was retarded for a while, and just don't publicly discuss negative opinions of our allies?

[blueski]

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1319167373' post='2829664']
Maybe we've had feelings that Arrnea was retarded for a while, and just don't publicly discuss negative opinions of our allies?
[/quote]
Until now, when its convenient.

[Locke]

[quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1319162910' post='2829595']
I think what makes it different is that Invicta have been allied to Europa (the alliance that Bern is in) for a long time, so Arrnea was trying to have people nuke Invicta's allies.

Where as they have no tie to NsO what soever, so supported their allies in that.
[/quote]
You keep harping on that, but it's irrelevant to the matter at hand. Europa isn't attacking SOS, NG is, for reasons Invicta's opposed in the past.

[Mogar]

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1319168997' post='2829689']
Until now, when its convenient.
[/quote]
Since when I do follow any traditional rules?

[Ellis]

[quote name='Kellory' timestamp='1319161845' post='2829580']
[url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=102883&view=findpost&p=2736454]And yet Invicta seemed happy to support at least 1 other dumb idea of Arrnea's.[/url]

So what makes this different from the SOS-NsO war?

Since it is clear from past conflicts that just because Arrnea is behind the war it is not an impediment to support.

Just kinda curious really.
[/quote]

At the time, with the information SOS gave us, they were firmly in the right, and we trusted Arrnea on that.

[Kellory]

[quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1319170498' post='2829715']
At the time, with the information SOS gave us, they were firmly in the right, and we trusted Arrnea on that.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what disturbs me more about this statement. The fact that Invicta did not even check up on the facts of the war with SOS-NsO before declaring their support, or the admission that Invicta got completely played by Arrnea. I mean did you just admit to being used like a pawn by Arrnea?

Seriously?

My point, however, remains that in both cases Arrnea pulled a rather bad stunt. I do not see how you can point a finger at one incident and say it was okay, but say another was not. SOS was attacked out of the blue by NG. Whether you are happy or not with Arrnea has little to do with it. Invicta's treaty is not with Arrnea, it is with the SOS Brigade. If you were willing to stand with the SOS Brigade when fed bad info you didnt even check up on when you only had an ODP, why not also support your ODP ally when they are attacked out of the blue for a reason that does not amount to much more than "we do not like you?".

It seems rather inconsistent.

Please note, unlike others here I am not saying Invicta should go to war here. Nor am I trying to critique decisions and polcies held by Invicta. All I am saying is that it is inconsistent to support one war and not the other and try to blame it on someone else. This isnt about Arrnea, it is about Invicta and why you did not issue a Declaration of Support for the SOS Brigade when they were clearly attacked, and yet you were willing to do so without even fact checking when SOS attacked NsO when they were tied to you via TPF and us. Invicta was prepared to accept blindly the word of the SOS Brigade which was an ODP ally at the time and risk a treaty conflict with another ODP partner when SOS launched an aggressive war, but you did not even offer that same Declaration of Support to the SOS Brigade now when they are actually attacked for no reason?

[Ogaden]

[quote name='blueski' timestamp='1319168997' post='2829689']
Until now, when its convenient.
[/quote]

That doesn't even make any sense, what is 'convenient' about it? There is nothing 'convenient' about being forced to downgrade with an ally because of the actions of one member, or to take all this flak because their enemies decide to take advantage of this to destroy them.

Edited October 21, 2011 by James Dahl

[Cataduanes]

So Arrnea when do you plan to grace us with you presence? your adoring public awaits you

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1319179430' post='2829815']
That doesn't even make any sense, what is 'convenient' about it? There is nothing 'convenient' about being forced to downgrade with an ally because of the actions of one member, or to take all this flak because their enemies decide to take advantage of this to destroy them.
[/quote]

I think he means that you supported them when it looked like your side was the bigger one in when SOS attacked NsO, and now a stronger foe challenged them the reason for your non-support seem to lay only with Arrnea.

And I think I agree with him. SOS as a whole always have been like this, everyone supported Bern, Arrnea or Elrich von Richt. It's pretty sad that I now have to defend Arrnea from his allies who are trying to blame this only on him.

Now don't mistake this for scrutinizing your in-action. I understand how you would not defend them esp considering Arrnea still is in peace mode, and I understand quite well that you want to help SOS as a whole by helping with the coup on Arrnea. That however does not mean that I cannot fault you for not seeing how SOS as whole is still a rotten structure. Always have been, always will be.

[Ogaden]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1319181151' post='2829833']
I think he means that you supported them when it looked like your side was the bigger one in when SOS attacked NsO, and now a stronger foe challenged them the reason for your non-support seem to lay only with Arrnea.

And I think I agree with him. SOS as a whole always have been like this, everyone supported Bern, Arrnea or Elrich von Richt. It's pretty sad that I now have to defend Arrnea from his allies who are trying to blame this only on him.

Now don't mistake this for scrutinizing your in-action. I understand how you would not defend them esp considering Arrnea still is in peace mode, and I understand quite well that you want to help SOS as a whole by helping with the coup on Arrnea. That however does not mean that I cannot fault you for not seeing how SOS as whole is still a rotten structure. Always have been, always will be.
[/quote]

Now this projection of your own issues onto my alliance is amusing but give it a rest. SOS Brigade is dictatorship, an alliance where the leader of the alliance can act unilaterally and veto any action. If SOS Brigade was a democracy or the impeachment process was more achievable, you could advance this argument, but this is absurd to apply to a dictatorship unless you subscribe to the idea that if you disagree with an alliance's government, you should always immediately 'vote with you feet' and leave.

'Voting with your feet' is not a terribly attractive idea for most members of alliances because they are emotionally invested in the alliance. This is why so many terrible alliance leaders throughout history have maintained forever-declining memberships but they always keep at least some of them. That said, more than 3/4 of SOS Brigade HAVE 'voted with their feet' after failing to solve the problem in SOS Brigade.

So for you to defend Arrnea now is YOU advancing a convenient argument. The only members left are those too apolitical or too invested in the alliance to bother opposing Arrnea anymore, everyone else has been expelled or left. Not a single one of these people have done anything to you, but in order to sake your bloodlust, which has been held down for so long, and you have invested so much emotionally into destroying SOS Brigade, that you can't not do it now.

What must eat you up inside though is that Arrnea has done far more damage to SOS Brigade than you could ever do. It makes sense that you would defend Arrnea, he is your unwitting ally, both of you working together over the last year to kill the alliance.

Edited October 21, 2011 by James Dahl

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1319184466' post='2829844']
Now this projection of your own issues onto my alliance is amusing but give it a rest. SOS Brigade is dictatorship, an alliance where the leader of the alliance can act unilaterally and veto any action. If SOS Brigade was a democracy or the impeachment process was more achievable, you could advance this argument, but this is absurd to apply to a dictatorship unless you subscribe to the idea that if you disagree with an alliance's government, you should always immediately 'vote with you feet' and leave.

'Voting with your feet' is not a terribly attractive idea for most members of alliances because they are emotionally invested in the alliance. This is why so many terrible alliance leaders throughout history have maintained forever-declining memberships but they always keep at least some of them. That said, more than 3/4 of SOS Brigade HAVE 'voted with their feet' after failing to solve the problem in SOS Brigade.

So for you to defend Arrnea now is YOU advancing a convenient argument. The only members left are those too apolitical or too invested in the alliance to bother opposing Arrnea anymore, everyone else has been expelled or left. Not a single one of these people have done anything to you, but in order to sake your bloodlust, which has been held down for so long, and you have invested so much emotionally into destroying SOS Brigade, that you can't not do it now.

What must eat you up inside though is that Arrnea has done far more damage to SOS Brigade than you could ever do. In a sense it makes sense that you would defend Arrnea, he is your unwitting ally, both of you working together over the last year to kill the alliance.
[/quote]

I gotta say, I loved reading that. Thanks for bringing a smile on my face. But how is that even a rebuttal to what I said?

My point is that SOS Brigade has always been like this, and the majority of the time Arrnea was in charge. He has done more than 1 stupid thing in the time that you were allied to him. And yeah Arrnea or those other awful individuals were leading SOS during the time you signed and upgraded. So you have always supported Arrnea and those others directly while knowing what they are made of. Again it's very convenient of you to lay the blame solely on Arrnea, and yes I agree that a large part can be directly attributed to him, but the rest lays with Bernkastel and with the rest of SOS former and previous members.

I simply do not buy the "I didn't know who Arrnea was" or the "I did not know what SOS have done" that I keep hearing from SOS members and allies alike. It's your and their fault for not having done enough research before you went in bed with Arrnea and respectably SOS.

Besides, didn't you post a DoS when SOS dowed on NsO saying that you support SOS even though they might be wrong or something like that? It's very convenient indeed to support him while the odds look in favor of your side, but when it's not you are the first to crawl back. Just like you did when it was clear MJ-PB-CnG-PF would !@#$ all over you when NsO-SOS would've spiraled out of control.

The leader is just as responsible for the actions of his membership as the membership is responsible for the actions of their leader. I'm indeed a vocal opponent of the 'vote with your feet' movement. I'm also a vocal opponent of 'Knowing your alliance before you join' and 'Knowing your ally before you sign'. Thus it might be true that from the members who remain in SOS, it's primarily the grievances with Arrnea that led to us declaring them, the members are still as responsible for it as Arrnea is. Although others are making a very good name for themselves to join Arrnea in the waste bin that is only suitable place for Arrnea when we are done with him. SOS will always be a synonym with Arrnea. It's intertwined, he founded it, he owns it, he controls it. If the members really want to lose the stigma, they will leave and find a new alliance together, without Arrnea himself. They had their chance when the only competent part of SOS left them to form NsO, but decided to support Arrnea. No, I really have no sense of sympathy for those currently in SOS.

Actually I always knew that Arrnea was more capable of destroying SOS than myself, which is why I allowed him to form SOS in the first place. I had the chance to kill him after VE found out he was lying to them but decided it wasn't worth it. I guess the community will hate me for allowing SOS to exist in the first place but I think it's kinda nice to see how Arrnea is now losing everything he worked for for the past year and some.

So good luck with the coup on Arrnea. But it won't change a damn thing for this war.

Edited October 21, 2011 by kriekfreak