Cataduanes Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='ShouAS' timestamp='1318919155' post='2827767'] No real life non-mythical being has not made one or two mistakes. Bern tried to turn SOS around and save them from Arrneas idiocy and was kicked out as a result. [/quote] heh yet prior to Bern seeing the light the was plenty of moments where both conducted policy and actions of supreme idiocy, Arrnea certainly did not do all of the 5-star $%&@ ups by himself. If you think Bern's hands are clean in all of this then I beg to differ. [quote name='erikz' timestamp='1318922781' post='2827804'] Hello there Pilate. [/quote] I lol'ed. [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1318925333' post='2827824'] He was actually the one who started all this mess. Bernkastel, you are as guilty as Arrnea for the problems between SOS and ourselves. [/quote] Yeah no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1318925783' post='2827827'] Yeah, but a bunch of NG guys have been calling for it to expand, mostly because they want casualties, or something, but Bluestrike's point was that if they really wanted the war to expand, they would have declared on SOS when they still had MDoAPs with Invicta and RIA, instead of just shortly after they were downgraded. [/quote] This was never meant anything else but to put the grievances into casualties. Calling that raise SOS shouldn't have made. This was never anything else than just SOS. Sure, some of our members would like to see this expanded outside, I personally wouldn't care if it did either but that's different than making sure it expands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1318925783' post='2827827'] Yeah, but a bunch of NG guys have been calling for it to expand, mostly because they want casualties, or something, but Bluestrike's point was that if they really wanted the war to expand, they would have declared on SOS when they still had MDoAPs with Invicta and RIA, instead of just shortly after they were downgraded. [/quote] In this case the ODP's with SOS seem to be worthless as the O in those treaties clearly stand for nO. Unless of course you guys acknowledge the fact that the queen of SOS (Arrnea) has been aggressive towards us since the founding of SOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernkastel Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1318927352' post='2827831'] If you think Bern's hands are clean in all of this then I beg to differ. [/quote] Sure they aren't completely clean but I'd say easily 95% of it has been Arrnea. You must understand that as Brigade Chief, Arrnea has/had absolute power and authority per the (pretty useless in every way) charter, if we really didn't go along with his agenda, we'd be sacked out of gov for somebody that would be more loyal to his causes and interests. That was just a post-NsO kind of place in SOS. I didn't like many of the things (the whole trust test on you for example, Cata) and disagreed with many others but I still did it like any subordinate/underling would. Edited October 18, 2011 by Bernkastel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1318927538' post='2827833'] This was never meant anything else but to put the grievances into casualties. Calling that raise SOS shouldn't have made. This was never anything else than just SOS. Sure, some of our members would like to see this expanded outside, I personally wouldn't care if it did either but that's different than making sure it expands. [/quote] Fair point, bet you wouldn't exactly be disappointed to have to roll us after the Stickmen purple senate thing, though [quote name='erikz' timestamp='1318937412' post='2827868'] In this case the ODP's with SOS seem to be worthless as the O in those treaties clearly stand for nO. Unless of course you guys acknowledge the fact that the queen of SOS (Arrnea) has been aggressive towards us since the founding of SOS. [/quote] I acknowledge nothing. In all seriousness, neither of those, especially not the first one, I'd like to reveal our reasons for doing what we're going to do, but I'd get fired, so I won't Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
band20 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Bernkastel' timestamp='1318939733' post='2827881'] Sure they aren't completely clean but I'd say easily 95% of it has been Arrnea. You must understand that as Brigade Chief, Arrnea has/had absolute power and authority per the (pretty useless in every way) charter, if we really didn't go along with his agenda, we'd be sacked out of gov for somebody that would be more loyal to his causes and interests. That was just a post-NsO kind of place in SOS. I didn't like many of the things (the whole trust test on you for example, Cata) and disagreed with many others but I still did it like any subordinate/underling would. [/quote] And yet you did not say, "No I will not." The charter is poorly written but that does not preclude you from doing the right thing and trying to stop Arrnea's shenanigans. Say what you will but you willingly contributed to the situations and seemed perfectly fine doing so up until your expulsion. Now its 95 percent on Arrnea, how convient for you... I am not saying that arrnea does not have his own guilt in the matter but that you had chances regardless of consequence to say no and went along with it any way. While I do feel bad for the members of SOS, it is hard to see them as innocent when they continually allow arrnea back into power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyt2k Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Blaming everything on 1 leader is a common tactic, for a lot of alliances, but the situation is always the same. Coup or Leave Change your charter to prevent these sorts of things, LoSS has a Tri, a Challenge System and our Tri are elected, so even if you get 2 mad dictators who do stupid things, and they avoid the challenge system, they still only have 3 months max before the next elections. NPO and NpO both have supreme leaders with absolute power and no elections, but they've both managed to coup leaders in the past Valhalla had the Vote of No Confidence on NoWedge and have gone from strength to strength Simply put, if you have a problem leader ....................... DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wu Tang Clan Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='andyt2k' timestamp='1318943262' post='2827902'] Blaming everything on 1 leader is a common tactic, for a lot of alliances, but the situation is always the same. Coup or Leave Change your charter to prevent these sorts of things, LoSS has a Tri, a Challenge System and our Tri are elected, so even if you get 2 mad dictators who do stupid things, and they avoid the challenge system, they still only have 3 months max before the next elections. NPO and NpO both have supreme leaders with absolute power and no elections, but they've both managed to coup leaders in the past Valhalla had the Vote of No Confidence on NoWedge and have gone from strength to strength Simply put, if you have a problem leader ....................... DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT [/quote] QFT. You let the alliance burn because you weren't willing to step up. Clean and simple. This could have been prevented. As is, roll em NG. They deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Ellis' timestamp='1318940198' post='2827888'] Fair point, bet you wouldn't exactly be disappointed to have to roll us after the Stickmen purple senate thing, though [/quote] Believe it or not, I'm pretty indifferent towards Invicta after we rolled you. Most of my grievances with Invicta stem from Haflinger's posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeline Anovilis Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Bernkastel' timestamp='1318939733' post='2827881'] Sure they aren't completely clean but I'd say easily 95% of it has been Arrnea. You must understand that as Brigade Chief, Arrnea has/had absolute power and authority per the (pretty useless in every way) charter, if we really didn't go along with his agenda, we'd be sacked out of gov for somebody that would be more loyal to his causes and interests. That was just a post-NsO kind of place in SOS. I didn't like many of the things (the whole trust test on you for example, Cata) and disagreed with many others but I still did it like any subordinate/underling would. [/quote] If you found the charter useless in any way, why didn't you change it when you were Brigade Chief? You were in that position long enough to press for a better charter, yet you kept the one Arrnea made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernkastel Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Wu Tang Clan' timestamp='1318945907' post='2827914'] This could have been prevented. [/quote] Yes, it could have been prevented. Not once but twice. I could have gone through with the ZI on Arrnea (he ran to hippy though) for his actions that could have gotten SOS rolled back in late July/early August. I should not have been blindsided into handing over Chief back to Arrnea when he decided to betray my friendship and trust again. Although to be fair, he absolutely insisted he was Acting Chief until I sorted things out and returned and I did come back only to get expelled because he took something horribly out of context and didn't really intend to hand it over. When it boils down to it, yes, I am partly responsible for SOS' clear downfall for the past month at the very least. I'm pretty sure none of the events of past week would not have occurred on my watch. [quote name='Evangeline Anovilis' timestamp='1318954418' post='2827956'] If you found the charter useless in any way, why didn't you change it when you were Brigade Chief? You were in that position long enough to press for a better charter, yet you kept the one Arrnea made. [/quote] The new charter I proposed wasn't getting any traction or any support *that I am aware of) from the membership at large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1318947196' post='2827918'] Believe it or not, I'm pretty indifferent towards Invicta after we rolled you. Most of my grievances with Invicta stem from Haflinger's posting. [/quote] That's okay, all of my grievances with your alliance stem from you being a huge sack of !@#$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 A terrible alliance versus one I couldn't care less about. *sigh* Nothing interesting to be said about anything these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1318960416' post='2827998'] That's okay, all of my grievances with your alliance stem from you being a huge sack of !@#$. [/quote] I think less people hate my alliance cause of me than they hate your alliance cause of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Lightyear Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1318960524' post='2827999'] A terrible alliance versus one I couldn't care less about. *sigh* Nothing interesting to be said about anything these days. [/quote] yeah, youve said this already. we get it. now go away and stop trying to feel important Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leet Guy Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1318960524' post='2827999'] A terrible alliance versus one I couldn't care less about. *sigh* Nothing interesting to be said about anything these days. [/quote] Do you realize how little content you add to the community? Saying whether something is or isn't "interesting?" That adjective in and of itself does nothing to compel to someone your thoughts or feelings on a subject. It's a passive remark that does nothing more but to say "hey, I said something about this subject, look at me." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Vine Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1318960889' post='2828003'] I think less people hate my alliance cause of me than they hate your alliance cause of you. [/quote] For the record, Kriekfreak is one of the people because of which I warmed towards NG, whereas the only reason I don't put Haflinger on ignorelist is because he's one of 2, maybe 3, active Invicta posters. Not that my opinion matters much, just putting it out there, to maybe incite some introspection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USMC123 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='andyt2k' timestamp='1318943262' post='2827902'] Blaming everything on 1 leader is a common tactic, for a lot of alliances, but the situation is always the same. Coup or Leave Change your charter to prevent these sorts of things, LoSS has a Tri, a Challenge System and our Tri are elected, so even if you get 2 mad dictators who do stupid things, and they avoid the challenge system, they still only have 3 months max before the next elections. NPO and NpO both have supreme leaders with absolute power and no elections, but they've both managed to coup leaders in the past Valhalla had the Vote of No Confidence on NoWedge and have gone from strength to strength Simply put, if you have a problem leader ....................... DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT [/quote] This. Oh so much this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Perry Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1318960416' post='2827998'] That's okay, all of my grievances with your alliance stem from you being a huge sack of !@#$. [/quote] Classy. The real question on my mind is why would anyone have a grievance with Non Grata? Scientific research found us to be The World's Best Alliance. Mainly for neutralising the Weeaboo threat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318961679' post='2828015'] Do you realize how little content you add to the community? Saying whether something is or isn't "interesting?" That adjective in and of itself does nothing to compel to someone your thoughts or feelings on a subject. It's a passive remark that does nothing more but to say "hey, I said something about this subject, look at me." [/quote] You're probably correct, I should have just canceled the post. I had a long drawn out thing written, but then I realized that I lacked the will to properly research it fully given my apathy/disdain for the alliances involved. The main idea was mainly that it seems lately like there have been several stomps for dubious reasons without the requisite amount of outrage that normally accompanies such events. It brings up poor memories about the state of the world and the treaty web to see things like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leet Guy Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='deth2munkies' timestamp='1318966148' post='2828064'] The main idea was mainly that it seems lately like there have been several stomps for dubious reasons without the requisite amount of outrage that normally accompanies such events. It brings up poor memories about the state of the world and the treaty web to see things like this. [/quote] Maybe it's because these wars are happening for...*gasp*...perfectly valid reasons? Such a strange new world we live in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriekfreak Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318966908' post='2828068'] Maybe it's because these wars are happening for...*gasp*...perfectly valid reasons? Such a strange new world we live in. [/quote] Yeah the UPN war, the Legion-Tetris war and this one are actual one of the most clear cut wars we have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deth2munkies Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Leet Guy' timestamp='1318966908' post='2828068'] Maybe it's because these wars are happening for...*gasp*...perfectly valid reasons? Such a strange new world we live in. [/quote] The definition of "valid" seems to be in constant flux with those who stand to gain from the war insisting their validity by any means, and those who oppose doing the opposite. It just seems like there are fewer and fewer who actually oppose for two primary reasons that I can divine: 1) The treaty web is clustered such that most people are at most 2-3 treaties away from each other, thus they don't want to badmouth an ally or ally of ally. In the past it tended to be into two separate camps, but that divide no longer seems to exist. 2) There seems to be quite a fear (and legitimate one I'm afraid) of becoming the next curbstomp target thanks in large part to #1. If you're not in the center of the cluster, you're out on the fringe periphery and have no chance thanks to most of your allies being forced to stay neutral while people with allies closer to the center can call in as many as they want without worrying about conflicts. Don't ask me to pinpoint the center, because I haven't spent enough time researching the web, but I did look it over back when Legion was declared on and that statement seemed accurate. I prefer this to a single bloc dominating (read: Continuum), but it's honestly not much better. It does make anyone tied to any significant alliance unable to speak plainly or call a spade a spade which is why, in large part, I'm staying out of alliances for the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buscemi Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1318960416' post='2827998'] That's okay, all of my grievances with your alliance stem from you being a huge sack of cash. [/quote] I guess when your alliance won't lift a finger for an ally, this is about all you can really post. But I'll admit arexes's nation is one of the most profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 [quote name='Katy Perry' timestamp='1318964846' post='2828053'] The real question on my mind is why would anyone have a grievance with Non Grata? [/quote] You have a government member who has never in his entire life spoken the truth about anything to anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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