What Constitutes Spying?

[magicninja]

what does it really matter? if you feel wronged enough to declare war....declare it...if not....gtfo. New motto: Declare or gtfo. That's it.

[FlogYou]

I'm not entirely sure what spying is, but I think I may have got a little on my keyboard?

[kevin32891]

Spying is subjective.

Null vote.

[Kzoppistan]

Criminal mischief and trespassing, for the record.

Though telling the judge I was a spy sounded much cooler.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318383530' post='2823168']
Legion only [b]uses[/b] spying CBs against alliances four times smaller than them.
[/quote]

Kinda like how the Sith pick who they will pay reps to over a broken trade circle and who they won't?

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318405436' post='2823373']
Kinda like how the Sith pick who they will pay reps to over a broken trade circle and who they won't?
[/quote]

Did you come up with all by yourself?

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318406304' post='2823379']
Did you come up with all by yourself?
[/quote]

Sorry bro, just couldnt help myself.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Banksy]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318405436' post='2823373']
Kinda like how the Sith pick who they will pay reps to over a broken trade circle and who they won't?
[/quote]
Does this make sense to anyone on any level? I mean, I know what event he is talking about, was involved in it (to an extent) but I honestly have no idea what point he's trying to make.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1318411390' post='2823393']
Does this make sense to anyone on any level? I mean, I know what event he is talking about, was involved in it (to an extent) but I honestly have no idea what point he's trying to make.
[/quote]

The Legion is not the only alliance that will respond differently to a larger alliance than a smaller one, no more than that.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Sigrun Vapneir

[Rush Sykes]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1318367768' post='2823046']
So if I joined a private channel of an alliance that I had recently left and logged it, it wouldn't be spying?
[/quote]

if said alliance is too inept to move you off the access list, then nope. At some point, the "victim" needs to be responsible for their own shortcomings.

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1318411657' post='2823394']
The Legion is not the only alliance that will respond differently to a larger alliance than a smaller one, no more than that.
[/quote]

Ummmmm ok. I am sure legion appreciate you trying to support them and all but it would be better support if what you said actually..you know..made sense?

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318414256' post='2823404']
Ummmmm ok. I am sure legion appreciate you trying to support them and all but it would be better support if what you said actually..you know..made sense?
[/quote]

I think whats he's trying to get at is a modified "might makes right" argument, with a dash of "An armed society is a polite society". If you find yourself wronged by somebody who is large enough to be a threat you tend to treat them differently than if you are wronged by random micro number 639. Two major alliances dealing with one another tend to reach a diplomatic compromise, a major alliance dealing with a random micro tends to get exactly what they want or the micro gets to eat somebody's boot.

[Timeline]

You do not need big long debates as the answer is simple, Spying is only bad if NPO or NPO friends spy, anyone else its not spying, just look at VE for the prove of that

[Sigrun Vapneir]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1318570286' post='2824692']
I think whats he's trying to get at is a modified "might makes right" argument, with a dash of "An armed society is a polite society". If you find yourself wronged by somebody who is large enough to be a threat you tend to treat them differently than if you are wronged by random micro number 639. Two major alliances dealing with one another tend to reach a diplomatic compromise, a major alliance dealing with a random micro tends to get exactly what they want or the micro gets to eat somebody's boot.
[/quote]

It's not that I disagree with what you are saying (although watch out! some micros will eat the boot and keep going taking the foot and parts beyond) but I dont believe that is where he is misunderstanding me.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1318414256' post='2823404']
Ummmmm ok. I am sure legion appreciate you trying to support them and all but it would be better support if what you said actually..you know..made sense?
[/quote]

Believe me if I start supporting Legion you will know about it. I only find it amusing how those who live in glass houses are sometimes so quick to start reaching for stones.

[Baltus]

They're all "spying".

What depends are the circumstances of spying. The ones near the end may be more destructive (ex. leaking private logs, etc) than warchest info. But if the logs are a private discussion of their favorite pie, then it's probably not as bad. They all could be (and have been) used as CB.

[potato]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1318570448' post='2824695']
You do not need big long debates as the answer is simple, Spying is only bad if NPO or NPO friends spy, anyone else its not spying, just look at VE for the prove of that
[/quote]

No one tell him.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Unknown Smurf' timestamp='1318367768' post='2823046']
So if I joined a private channel of an alliance that I had recently left and logged it, it wouldn't be spying?
[/quote]
No, Cheeky did that and he's a MoFA of a respected alliance, so it's OK.

[Valtamdraugr]

I don't remember what I voted now, but the point I would like to make is this:

If I obtain information, from any source, that will aid or mitigate damage to my alliance or that of my allies... I have an obligation to share it with them... obviously not publicly.. but then we may need a definition of "public".

Many grey areas in this poll when the above is considered.

[Coyote]

It's very very subjective. A lot of these would apply only if the information was privileged, IMO. I could see all of them except sharing information from a semi-public area being valid CBs if the circumstances were right, but the only one that I think would be valid nearly all of the time would be gathering intelligence against an alliance you're at war with. IRC log distribution has a whole lot of gray areas in it.

Edited October 20, 2011 by Coyote

[RedPhx]

I thought about this a lot while on another game I kept in contact with friends on both sides of a war (plus took advantage of a chat where I could whisper with opposing players) to gather information on who was getting hit and who was next I would have to say that spying is gathering information under false pretenses. If you could get an opposing player to run his/her mouth and reveal secrets I see nothing wrong with sharing what you have learned and same with what you could find without decieving anyone but once you join an alliance to spill secrets or tricking someone into thinking you have other plans with it that crosses the line.

Edited October 29, 2011 by RedPhx

[Mogar]

whenever any of those occur to my alliance, it's spying, whenever we do them, it's not, pretty simple.

[Bob Janova]

To me, the offence (and therefore the good CB) occurs when you use subterfuge to get hold of information you shouldn't have access to. Using information that you're still masked for but shouldn't be is low class, but it's not spying per se (though depending on the level of information and the inferred intent of you taking it, it can still be a good CB). Taking information from a private location you have legitimate access to is leaking, not spying, though it will probably get you kicked from your alliance.

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1319896281' post='2834423']
To me, the offence (and therefore the good CB) occurs when you use subterfuge to get hold of information you shouldn't have access to. Using information that you're still masked for but shouldn't be is low class, but it's not spying per se (though depending on the level of information and the inferred intent of you taking it, it can still be a good CB). Taking information from a private location you have legitimate access to is leaking, not spying, though it will probably get you kicked from your alliance.
[/quote]
So if someone forgot to revoke person A's authorizations from something like NORAD or SKYNET or [take your pick] and they still had access, then maybe spread some info from there over irc or something, it would be a !@#$%* thing to do but not actual spying?

[Drai]

In-game spying is an act of war and EZI should be enforced if somebody does it without reason.

[Vladimir Stukov II]

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1319959448' post='2834923']
In-game spying is an act of war and EZI should be enforced if somebody does it without reason.
[/quote]

I agree. If someone spies me, I attack them, plain and simple. Anyone who doesn't treat spy attacks as an act of war is scared of losing their infra.