Advice to Legion

[Chalaskan]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309911850' post='2749829']
We're coming dangerously close to agreement. The monkeys will be confused. I also think they stuck with the NPO too long and while the gov now seems superficially like the one before the Renaissance, it has had it's moments of quality (I like Totem personally), such as the first Single Leader Whose Name Escapes My Aged Memory. Other alliances make mistakes, but only Legion's are written across the sky and taught to children in school. (Admittedly, they take up a lot of room on the syllabus).
[/quote]

Fonzo, Ref. and several other old timers are sorely missed by myself. I agree with Totem as well. Always have liked him, much like yourself, Graphix, and several others that are no longer there. (Many in TOP with myself.)

Regardless, I think they would need to start a serious FA campaign moving away from the NPO before cutting that tie. Right now there is little liability to be connected to them, and NPO is probably one of the alliances that respect them the most. That boat to cut that tie has long sailed imho.


[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1309912014' post='2749833']
I don't know, call me naive but I think Zhadum genuinely liked and tried to better Legion. I suppose I never knew him that well but from my limited interaction with him once upon a time that was the impression I gained. I'd like to think he left Legion in a better state than he found it.
[/quote]

I think he cared after being there for a while. He seemed genuine when he first took over, but at the same time you know it was a joke, and the whole point of having him there was to make Legion a long time vessel, and shame the alliance it once was. Mission accomplished.

Zhadum took his duty seriously in trying to repair the Legion, but when you have an alliance so splintered, it is hard, maybe even impossible to make it cohesive. I'm still convinced it had plants from NPO before that war that tried to splinter them, and did a great job at it. I imagine they still have some people that hold NPO's well being as high as Legions.

Regardless, I think right now is probably the best shot they have at becoming stronger than ever before and break away from the mistakes of the past. They are much smaller in number, have a large pool of old timers that are led by one of the more competent old timers.



Just need to gag that Leonidas kid, I thought he was part of the new gov. LOL

[ImperialCubanacan]

Every thread is about NPO. Literally, e.v.e.r.y. t.h.r.e.a.d. [i]unless[/i] it's about Rating Micros, Power Comparisons or 'what if' threads (aside from Mogar threads and RIA interventions -- usually, anyway).

Legion had an interesting discussion with us regarding their temporary disbandment and the events surrounding it (I had forgotten entirely), so the OP is interesting even more.

[AnCapistan]

[quote name='kevin32891' timestamp='1309909375' post='2749790']
This isn't about the NPO this is about how Legion accusing our gov member of spying with no evidence.
[/quote]

Your government has accused me of spying without providing any evidence. Where is my apology?!

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309911361' post='2749822']
Survival or death? They leapt at the only log in the river. Before i hear cries of Death before Dishonour and all that, this is the Legion that was practically one of the closest groupings that has ever existed. We didn't come to the main boards because we were so self contained. It was our greatest strength and our greatest weakness. We were not just alliance mates we were (hoary old cliche i know), actually a group of friends.

I don't blame them at all.
[/quote]
If they had such a strong community, than they should have been able to survive a losing war. You didn't see FAN disband did you?

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1309915492' post='2749881']
If they had such a strong community, than they should have been able to survive a losing war. You didn't see FAN disband did you?
[/quote]


FAN kept its Leadership and structure. After the Legion Leadership ran away and secured it's survival in other AA's Legion was left with mostly the smaller non-involved nations that, democratic actions aside, had no involvement or guilt in what happened to cause the Disbandment. It's hastily put together leadership couldn't have fought a war (against the Top Dog AA and pals) and kept the alliance together even with Cliff Notes and the Hand of God.

Plus, I had no intention of letting many mid and micro nations get smashed into the ground while the really guilty drank metaphorical cocktails while wearing White Tiger Skin and what have you.

Plus, FAN was in the right, which is a good glue to keep people together. Legion, via it's mad Pre-Disbandment government, was guilty as hell and leaking members by the hundred. So, in my verbose manner, I'm saying it would not have survived a losing war.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Hymenbreach

[Conformist Maryland]

Great post Hymen. I pray that they listen.

[LeonidasRexII]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309907522' post='2749756']
For most of my political life on Planet Bob, since I took over my nation in a peaceful but surprisingly bloody coup, I was a member of Legion.

A little history lesson.

I was a nobody in the alliance for a good while. I was Communications Officer for about three years, some of which I managed to increase (for like a couple of seconds until The Curse Of Legion Leadership Struck) the public reputation of that Alliance. (Our reputation has always been low, since we let the NPO of old won the propaganda war through a foolish decision to ignore the wider world).

As you know, Lord Swampy had his moment of madness and Pezstar had her moment of Intestinal Unfortitude and Legion Disbanded for about 20 minutes. I was voted in as one of the emergency Leadership and I am the one and only person responsible for contacting the NPO and thus I am the cause of the Viceroyship and I am the one who should be called a NPO lapdog. I was, and am, happy to have that monkey nougat thrown at me rather than the Alliance as a whole. Though it is too late for that.

I was in government briefly after that, and was staggeringly bad for the most part. Mostly because I felt too strongly for the alliance that I thought I had saved and I struggled to separate myself from the organisation. Some of you will sympathise, some will not. I am also an ideas man rather than a worker. This is my excuse for idleness.

I tell you this so that you know I have some right to advise the Legion.

My advice is this: [b]Separate from the NPO at all costs[/b]. I was a fool. I thought we could be saved in a NPO run world, but that came to an end and then we should have cut our losses and did what the ODN did, only with a little more dignity and class.

Yes, we owed the NPO much for not simply destroying us and giving us the mechanism of competent, if not entirely independent, government. But that was then and the ties of gratitude need not be barbed wire handcuffs.

If you move away from the NPO ou will be alone and the wolves will surround you. Some will skulk, like they do now. Some will yelp for the amusement of other scavengers, like they do now and yes, some will bite you but they cannot kill you. Nothing can kill Legion, God knows enough have tried. What does not kill you makes you stronger, said a wise man once.

Furthermore, attack the NSO. Even it goes badly, you look like you give a damn. There is a myth that Legion has always been terrible at war and this was true only twice in history. The far past and the immediate present. Between that, we were competent at least.

The road to recovery will cost you dear, but you must take the first step yourself.
[/quote]

Thank you for the advice and thoughtful words HB. I don't know if the Legion government will take your advice or not, but I will not support a move to separate from NPO at this time. You've, very eloquently, pointed out that The Legion wouldn't be faulted if we did part ways with the Big Red One; after all we've suffered a viceroy under their hand, and continue to be criticized just for being associated to them. But, since Karma, what have they done to anyone that would warrant us parting ways with them? They took their punishment during Karma and paid the reps that were agreed to afterward. Reps that lasted many months as I recall. They fully paid their debt for Karma and since then have kept relatively quiet. During the entirety of our current treaty they've maintained comms with us and supported us on several fronts both economic and militaristic. So what grounds do we have for turning our backs on them? Others said so, or should we go with that it's just too hard to be their allies?

NPO paid their debt, period; we shouldn't abandon them just because it's the in thing to do. You said that the road to recovery will cost us dear, but the road we've been on hasn't exactly been kind, but we've stuck by our allies regardless. That should count for something don't you think?

[Sandwich Controversy]

Dropping the only alliance with any sort of faith in Legion is a really bad idea. Even if Legion wants to get away from the side perpetually losing wars, they're going to need NPO for a long time until they can fundamentally reshape themselves, something I doubt is in the realm of possibility. They should instead turn to NPO once again for help. While they aren't exactly the most popular alliance around, they at least have a good idea of how to run an alliance.

And about NSO: if you want to earn back even the tiniest bit of respect from the world at large, you need to attack them. Simple as. They've shown an utter lack of respect for you and provided one of the most clear-cut casus bellis in history. If you win, it will be costly, but show that Legion is a principled alliance willing to fight to defend its members, and you'll have taught NSO a valuable lesson. If you lose, you'll still show that the Legion will stand up for itself, but also poor, inactive members will melt off, allowing a more streamlined alliance with a larger proportion of contributing members. This would be much easier to organize into a relatively strong alliance.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Sandwich Controversy

[Ashoka the Great]

Reading this is like hearing a dealer advise a buyer on why he needs to quit heroin.

"Dude, I know I'm the one who got you hooked, but just look at yourself!"

The Legion has been a running joke of an alliance since before GW3. I can't think of another alliance that has been so justifiably mocked for so long.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1309922388' post='2749975']
Reading this is like hearing a dealer advise a buyer on why he needs to quit heroin.

"Dude, I know I'm the one who got you hooked, but just look at yourself!"

The Legion has been a running joke of an alliance since before GW3. I can't think of another alliance that has been so justifiably mocked for so long.
[/quote]
Ochocinco for King of Legion!

[flak attack]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309907522' post='2749756']
Yes, we owed the NPO much for not simply destroying us
[/quote]
This is absolutely hilarious. You don't owe your enemy anything simply because they didn't kill you.

[Chalaskan]

[quote]And about NSO: if you want to earn back even the tiniest bit of respect from the world at large, you need to attack them. Simple as. They've shown an utter lack of respect for you and provided one of the most clear-cut casus bellis in history. If you win, it will be costly, but show that Legion is a principled alliance willing to fight to defend its members, and you'll have taught NSO a valuable lesson. If you lose, you'll still show that the Legion will stand up for itself, but also poor, inactive members will melt off, allowing a more streamlined alliance with a larger proportion of contributing members. This would be much easier to organize into a relatively strong alliance.[/quote]

Wise words. Really, Legion has always backpedaled, and faltered when war came unless someone made the decision to go for them. Time to punch someone in the face even if it means you get your ass kicked. Next time you'll be tougher win lose or draw, and gain some respect.

[Vanilla Napalm]

I'm sorry, but is this thread devoted to telling Legion not to follow what people tell them to do? Love it.

[Cataduanes]

Got to say I like the overall tone of Hymenbreach's OP, even if I disagree with some of the actual text/details (I don't remember you being so reasonable HB?!?!? or was it a case of just being unreasonable to ODN members? ). However I do [b]not [/b]even think separation from Pacifica would be necessary, things like a war with NSO and such would suffice...oh that and gagging people like Manwithoutaplan.

Good luck Legion, I hope you get to where you need to get to.....

Correction: Correction in bold.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Cataduanes

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='flak attack' timestamp='1309923854' post='2749992']
This is absolutely hilarious. You don't owe your enemy anything simply because they didn't kill you.
[/quote]


Quotes taken out of context are the [b][i]best[/i][/b] quotes.

[kriekfreak]

My advice to Legion is just disband already. You will never get a good reputation ever. Not even if you were to attack NSO, which you won't because you are bloated, scared and well just plainly incompetent in building a proper alliance. Do us all of favor and merge into NPO. Even though I think NPO is full of !@#$, they are competent in building a strong alliance and they have that drive to be the number one alliance in the game. With your numbers and NPO's knowledge on building a great alliance you can again rule the world (unless you get stomped by someone before that again).

[Megamind]

They didn't listen to me when I told them to cut NPO loose and that was when I was their Minister of Foreign Affairs, so I doubt they'll listen to you.

[Domingo the Honored]

[quote name='Megamind' timestamp='1309956336' post='2750331']
They didn't listen to me when I told them to cut NPO loose and that was when I was their Minister of Foreign Affairs, so I doubt they'll listen to you.
[/quote]

That was only because we didn't fear your machete ghost. It's not scary, Megamind, it's cute.
Just saying.

[potato]

[quote name='Megamind' timestamp='1309956336' post='2750331']
They didn't listen to me when I told them to cut NPO loose and that was when I was their Minister of Foreign Affairs, so I doubt they'll listen to you.
[/quote]

That's because it would be a terrible idea. NPO, for all their faults, know what they're doing. It's quite obvious Legion doesn't. Whether or not Pacifica is using Legion or not, it still remain Legion's only worthy ally (with Polar). Dropping NPO would put a huge target on Legion's back.

What BJ said is probably the best advice Legion will get from anyone here, unless disbanding is a serious option.

Oh and don't let [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=103058"]Sabercat, Leonidas and co[/url] be your mouthpiece.

[King Louis the II]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1309912500' post='2749840']
Legion's problem is Legion, not NPO. At this point, NPO is probably more well liked or at least respected than Legion.
[/quote]

^^^^^^ This.


I think NPO already paid for their past sins. Time to move on.

The Legion had a chance to redeem themselves by going to war in response to recent incidents. Now I think the momentum is gone. I sincerely hope they find a way to learn with their mistakes and improve.

[Sardonic]

[quote name='Sandwich Controversy' timestamp='1309921503' post='2749966']
Dropping the only alliance with any sort of faith in Legion is a really bad idea
[/quote]
Uh, BJ, NPO hasn't had any faith in Legion for quite some time :shh:.

As to the topic at hand, yes, please separate yourselves from NPO. Just bite the bullet and go neutral.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Sardonic

[pezstar]

The proper thing to do isn't for Legion to cut ties with NPO. It is for Legion to find her OWN FA direction, and be a participant in the world based on her own merits and stats. The numbers and competence have ALWAYS been there. They're there now. The problem comes with the wholly insular nature of the community, which just doesn't allow for big moves or independence. It's fine to be wrapped up within your own community, paying little mind to the rest of the world if you are a neutral alliance. If you are not willing or able to make external moves, you cannot, and will not, be a respected alliance, and as such, you will continue to get the crap beaten out of you on a regular basis. NSO is a perfect example of this. A few months ago, EVERYONE hated them. Today, folks are coming around. Why? They're doing something on their own.

[Hymenbreach]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1309961514' post='2750372']
The proper thing to do isn't for Legion to cut ties with NPO. It is for Legion to find her OWN FA direction, and be a participant in the world based on her own merits and stats. The numbers and competence have ALWAYS been there. They're there now. The problem comes with the wholly insular nature of the community, which just doesn't allow for big moves or independence. It's fine to be wrapped up within your own community, paying little mind to the rest of the world if you are a neutral alliance. If you are not willing or able to make external moves, you cannot, and will not, be a respected alliance, and as such, you will continue to get the crap beaten out of you on a regular basis. NSO is a perfect example of this. A few months ago, EVERYONE hated them. Today, folks are coming around. Why? They're doing something on their own.
[/quote]


Ome may preclude the other.

[ChairmanHal]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309962880' post='2750381']
One may preclude the other.[/quote]

It does, but you have to have the vision to see it.

Valhalla was an alliance when I arrived in 2009 that felt that it still owed a debt to NPO for things that it had done for Val in the past. That debt having been paid in blood, we cut our ties with Pacifica. We've never looked back and are much better off for it.

[Sabcat]

[quote name='Hymenbreach' timestamp='1309962880' post='2750381']
Ome may preclude the other.
[/quote]

Or one may lead to the other.

Of course all of this is based on the assumption that Legion is unhappy which on the whole it's not, it a perfectly happy bunch of people. As I've said before most just don't care what gets said here and don't see any reason why they should start caring.