Non Grata Declares War on the NAAC

[Vol Navy]

OBR does have a ton of tech....NG should raid it.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1310444955' post='2754741']
What? Tech raiding is literally beating up someone smaller than you and taking their !@#$. Arguing that raiding isn't bullying is asinine. It may be natural in so much as the strong preying on the weak is "natural," but it's not like your nation is created at war and you have to fight against the world mechanics to stay at peace. But yes me pointing that out is very mean of me. I apologize.
[/quote]

Stronger nations will use their strength to get more resources. That is not "bullying" as I would define it. Nobody is forcing these nations to remain unprotected and nobody is preventing them from acquiring protection. They take the risk of being targeted for their material wealth through their decision to remain independent and deserve zero sympathy. I understand you have trouble coping with the idea that other people do not share your views but your sarcasm is unnecessary.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Emperor Marx

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Hime Themis' timestamp='1310433979' post='2754617']
Good Kriekfreak
[/quote]
Hello Hime

[quote]
I do not support the practice of tech raiding but on an individual basis I also believe it is an approach that can be explored without call to sanction. I do not enjoy it on an institutional basis.[/quote]

No objections here. You are entitled to your own opinion.

[quote]
I am however amused by a couple of your points.

First you say that it is fun that the community standards are continually evolving yet you cannot contemplate that they are changing away from the support for raiding. Now why is that? Would not that change be "fun"?
[/quote]
I aim to amuse. I think you misread my intention with that line. In my view the support of raiding is not at all "moving away from raiding". I think it's quite the opposite and that raiders are getting more and more support. This case illustrated that.

[quote]
Second
"Raiding is not about being a jerk. Raiding is about getting tech and land that will give you an edge in building your nations and alliances."

Really I wish I had been told this earlier. I believe that war is a necessary evil to defend a principle. It can even be fun when it is fought with humour and honour by a worthy opponent as we were fortunate to find in alliances like OG and TORN.

I would truly be interested if you would point out be name the "mediocre" nations in the top 20 who used regular raiding practices to grow to the top of the heap. I would also be thrilled to learn which of these same "mediocre" nations are the reviled "pacifists" perhaps you would like to post the list of their casualties so we all may denigrate them together.Of course if raiding is necessary build so you are not "mediocre" it would of course not be possible to get to the top 20 as a pacifist.
[/quote]
Yes raiding gives you an edge. I don't recall me saying that not raiding is making someone mediocre per se. But I would make the case that raiders are better at what they do than non-raiders just for you.

1) The top 100 today is mostly comprised of people that have not fought much and do not enjoy fighting as much as other people. You can see all the neutral players up there that have not fought a battle in the past 3-4 years.
2) The top raiders enjoy war and will not sit out a war just to build their nations. This is why they get beaten down because nukes/cm's will hit your nation regardless of how good you are. That they are barely any raiders in the top100 does not have to do with raiding or not raiding it's all about the amount of war you have seen.
3) Casualties itself have nothing to do with raiding so I'm a little bit surprised you brought that up.
4) To take you as an example, you might have a bit of casualties but thats easy with your size. Second, you maybe didn't raid. But you sure as hell didn't get so big by just building your nation either. You had monetary help from an extrabobbanian source.
5) Land and tech are hard to import, the only way really is to raid it from others. So those that have raided a lot during peace time will come out stronger than those that do not. Unless the raids go bad and the nation gets nuked. But that's all part of raiding. We risk something to get better, while the non-raiders don't risk anything. That's fine by me but don't get angry when we do.

[quote]
I am sure it is only my horrible lack of a fun gene that prohibits me from enjoying the great pleasure resulting from theft and thuggery. It must be because I am Canadian that I do not see the overwhelming joy for the victim or raider when a nation is triple teamed by double his nation strength nations and then raided time and time again. Yes, this is definitely a failing on my part.
[/quote]
I'm not that familiar with Canadians but fun is a subjective emotion, so I guess we can agree to disagree on what creates fun on this wonderful planet of Bob.

[quote]
18,000 nations and it is necessary to raid a defunct alliance or a memorial nation?? Really if it is that hard to find raid targets I am sure since it is such fun for all that we could add to our repertoire of help to nations we provide a list of raid targets who would pump up the "fun" factor by actually be able to fight back. Just give the word and we would be happy to get right on that for those that just love the thrill of a fight.
[/quote]
Who raided a memorial nation? I don't think they even exist so we can just skip that part. Yes 18,000 nations and the only ones that aren't safe from us are those that hid in defunct alliances without protection. Now they got a protector they won't see us again. So in a way, we helped them to get protectors. Like GOONS have done multiple times. Raiding is not about warring. So naturally we won't take you up on your offer.

[quote]
Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis
[/quote]

Respectfully,
Kriekfreak of Michiel de Ruyter
Purple Senator

Edited July 12, 2011 by kriekfreak

[fant0m]

Oh look another thread with the same old people spouting the same old boring BS. I love how people always try to make out that raiders are weak cowards when the majority of raiding alliances have some of the finest militaries on the planet.

Arguments over tech raiding will always exist but for either side to try and claim any kind of moral authority is ridiculous. We will keep doing what we like to do and if TPF/OBR/Polar members want to dictate to us what we're allowed to do they're going to need a lot more than words.

[Trinite]

[quote name='Emperor Marx' timestamp='1310455451' post='2754824']
Stronger nations will use their strength to get more resources. That is not "bullying" as I would define it. Nobody is forcing these nations to remain unprotected and nobody is preventing them from acquiring protection. They take the risk of being targeted for their material wealth through their decision to remain independent and deserve zero sympathy. I understand you have trouble coping with the idea that other people do not share your views but your sarcasm is unnecessary.
[/quote]
Well we just define bullying differently. The victim generally doesn't define the act but whatever. This is a silly old argument. I don't care enough about it to do anything, and bullies only respond to force, so we can keep going back and forth disagreeing on the definitions of words or we can let you get back to doing your thing.

I really don't care all that much about raiding. I just think you're lying to yourself if you don't think it's a totally dickish thing to do.

[suryanto tan]

[quote name='fant0m' timestamp='1310466816' post='2754859']
Oh look another thread with the same old people spouting the same old boring BS. I love how people always try to make out that raiders are weak cowards when the majority of raiding alliances have some of the finest militaries on the planet.

Arguments over tech raiding will always exist but for either side to try and claim any kind of moral authority is ridiculous. We will keep doing what we like to do and if TPF/OBR/Polar members want to dictate to us what we're allowed to do they're going to need a lot more than words.
[/quote]

Basically, he is saying, "Do something about it!" And I kinda agree. If you are bothered that much by them, then you should stop them or at least try to stop them.

Here are among the things you can do:
1. Issue protection for the entire NONE.
2. Go to the raiders nation, declare war on them, and nuke them 1000 times. Perhaps that will teach them a lesson or two.
3. Offer financial and/or military aid to the raid victim.

Just like them has a lot of option about what to do with their nations (they choose to raid), you also have the options to prevent raiding if you choose to.

Have fun. Make it fun.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='fant0m' timestamp='1310466816' post='2754859']
Oh look another thread with the same old people spouting the same old boring BS. I love how people always try to make out that raiders are weak cowards when the majority of raiding alliances have some of the finest militaries on the planet.

Arguments over tech raiding will always exist but for either side to try and claim any kind of moral authority is ridiculous. We will keep doing what we like to do and if TPF/OBR/Polar members want to dictate to us what we're allowed to do they're going to need a lot more than words.
[/quote]


I am not opposed to raiding, but someone said raiding was making it fun for people and I agree. If NG mass raided OBR I would have lots of fun watching the results no matter how it turned out. Not trying to stop anyone from doing it, just looking for the promised fun!

[fant0m]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1310477106' post='2754899']
I am not opposed to raiding, but someone said raiding was making it fun for people and I agree. If NG mass raided OBR I would have lots of fun watching the results no matter how it turned out. Not trying to stop anyone from doing it, just looking for the promised fun!
[/quote]

Well if it's fun you're looking for just have TPF drop all her treaties and I'm sure we can organise some raids.

[Groucho Marx]

[quote name='Trinite' timestamp='1310474187' post='2754881']
Well we just define bullying differently. The victim generally doesn't define the act but whatever. This is a silly old argument. I don't care enough about it to do anything, and bullies only respond to force, so we can keep going back and forth disagreeing on the definitions of words or we can let you get back to doing your thing.

I really don't care all that much about raiding. I just think you're lying to yourself if you don't think it's a totally dickish thing to do.
[/quote]

I never said it wasn't a "dickish" thing to do. I said it's normal, impossible to prevent and whether or not you believe this, raiding can have a larger purpose than simple theft. Those benefits aren't just restricted to the nations doing the raiding either. I have no doubt that there are people who raid simply for the fun of it and that there are many motivations for someone to decide to raid someone else. However I am not talking about every raider. If you wish to generalize about all raiders then be my guest.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Emperor Marx

[Haflinger]

[quote name='fant0m' timestamp='1310480985' post='2754919']
Well if it's fun you're looking for just have TPF drop all her treaties and I'm sure we can organise some raids.
[/quote]
Way to miss his point entirely.

He said, if it's fun you're looking for, just do stuff. Raiders always argue "I should be able to do anything I want to without consequences because it's fun!"

You're doing it again.

[Daikos]

What the hell is a historic AA?

Seriously.

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1310499104' post='2755030']
Way to miss his point entirely.

He said, if it's fun you're looking for, just do stuff. Raiders always argue "I should be able to do anything I want to without consequences because it's fun!"

You're doing it again.
[/quote]

No he didn't. Did you actually read what he said or are you just hopping onto that raider bashing bandwagon of them?

[Pollard]

[quote name='Daikos' timestamp='1310502574' post='2755063']
What the hell is a historic AA?

Seriously.
[/quote]

An AA which is historic.

[greenacres]

shut the $%&@ up, and stop trying to be an e-lawyer.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1310499104' post='2755030']
Way to miss his point entirely.

He said, if it's fun you're looking for, just do stuff. Raiders always argue "I should be able to do anything I want to without consequences because it's fun!"

You're doing it again.
[/quote]

I think you missed his point entirely.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Zoomzoomzoom' timestamp='1310514302' post='2755142']
I think you missed his point entirely.
[/quote]

That and the typical raider mindset.

[Trout]

Any in my range?

[blueski]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1310517505' post='2755185']
That and the typical raider mindset.
[/quote]
Oh, this isn't it?

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_t4yocv9pcjw/RgvgpEBA8rI/AAAAAAAAEz4/kBwo1wH9bGM/s400/bloodsport.jpg[/img]

[The Big Bad]

Raiding none is all well and good, while raiding nations with an AA is something that often leads to trouble. Then again if it was not for idiots raiding the wrong AA we would not have had many of the wars we have had on Planet Bob. Heck its no secret that setting up an AA just to get raided and start a war is an idea that is common. Raiding AAs is always going to come with a certain amount of distain from elements on Planet Bob and at times it comes with both a price militarily and/or diplomaticly. If you can not deal with being hated on or on occasion getting rolled or just made to look foolish on OWF then you should not be doing it.

If your going to raid AAs then quit pretending you are anything more than a bully looking for an easy target. Embrace it people, why is everyone so afraid of being the bad guy anymore? They are weak so they get robbed and beat up, so what? Yes it is not a nice thing to do so fracking embrace it and run with it. Sure it will cost you some allies and maybe a war but at least you can have some fun and stop trying justify everything you do.

Also anyone who did not know raiding NAAC would cause problems is either a liar or an idiot. And the way NAAC handled it was beyond foolish.

[Hime Themis]

Good Sir William and Good Kriekfreak of Michiel de Ruyter

I appreciate your thoughtful answers.Indeed I chose a different route to grow and have to admit that when I organized my tech trading circles to grow when I was a smaller nation raiders were the bane of my suppliers. While we may not agree on the necessity or fun factor of raiding it is pleasant to actually hear honest debate on the subject. It is a refreshing change from those who simply say "do something about" or the ever popular "moralist". Though it might be nice if they actually looked up the word and understood what it means. Sigh.

Understand I see your points, I also believe as a small nation it is something one might explore on a one on one basis until it becomes bullying. As I indicated I simply do not like it when institutionalized or when targets that could or should be left alone out of respect are targeted.

What a true pleasure to speak with those who put in the effort to debate and put forth a reasoned response.

Respectfully
Dame Hime Themis

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='The Big Bad' timestamp='1310521488' post='2755238']
If your going to raid AAs then quit pretending you are anything more than a bully looking for an easy target.
[/quote]

I don't agree that raiding is anything like bullying but I want to discuss another thesis of yours which is (correct me if I'm wrong) that raiding an AA constitutes bullying and raiding None does not. Why would the one be bullying but the other not when it's actually the same. And what about 1 person AA's? I think you will then fall back to what constitutes an alliance which is a discussion I don't want to open up now.

I think there are two ways to look at raiding. Being inherently bad, or it being a good thing. I can understand why people think it's a bad practice and I understand why people think it's a good practice. However I don't think there is any grey area in raiding itself.

[nippy]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1310429839' post='2754598']
That would have been the point where a raider should start asking around and find out what he's talking about, or heaven forbid, dig a little. NG should probably consider running their own [url="http://cngoons.com/Board/index.php?topic=2882.0"]no-raid list[/url] like yours to keep those who can't be bothered to pay attention from getting into trouble. You'll note that NAAC is listed there as well.
[/quote]

LordChozo tried the same strongman stance with me when I raided him. Sorry, but when a nation is attempting to defy normal conventions and has the audacity to act like he's above you while you're kicking his ass, it only makes you want to kick his ass some more. LordChozo got nothing but peace for his efforts, even though he demanded reps. He needs to learn his place, and it's unfortunate that people are fluffing his pillows for him instead of allowing him to learn the harsh realities of the world we live in.

[Systemfailure]

Raiders gonna raid haters gonna whine on the OWF, anyone who complains about raiding that isn't actively AIDing any and every nation getting raided is a hypocrite you want it to stop but your not willing to back up the defending nation with a little cash and some extra troops? its easy to talk but backing up those words isn't , its all well and good to complain about how someone plays the game but to actively say that you don't like the way they do things and that they should change their Alliance charter and stop raiding forever is just stupid.

As far as a small nation getting picked on goes, if it gets them into a protected AA quicker then if they were allowed to sit around doing nothing might help get them doing something constructive with their nation.

Also raiding will always exist because there is always going to be NONES and theres always going to be nations that need a little extra tech/land/casualties/fun if that fact is too hard to live with then im afraid that this planet isnt for you.

[Locke]

[quote name='nippy' timestamp='1310553636' post='2755413']
LordChozo tried the same strongman stance with me when I raided him. Sorry, but when a nation is attempting to defy normal conventions and has the audacity to act like he's above you while you're kicking his ass, it only makes you want to kick his ass some more. LordChozo got nothing but peace for his efforts, even though he demanded reps. He needs to learn his place, and it's unfortunate that people are fluffing his pillows for him instead of allowing him to learn the harsh realities of the world we live in.
[/quote]
I thought "I'm protected" was the point which common convention dictated that a raid stopped. The raider should have asked who Chozo claimed protected him and then cleared the matter with them, to determine if the protection was valid.

For that matter, GOONS' own no-raid list, as I pointed out, dictates that you not raid him, so why did you?
[quote name='GOONS Raiding Policy']Choosing the raid target

First, the ground rules for raids. Obviously, most of the unaligned are fair game.There are rules, however.

-No unaligned or micro-AAs on our "do-not-attack list". We grant immunity to some mercy board graduates (more below)
-No AA with 15 or more members without explicit (and rare!) gov approval.
-No AA with diplomatic ties or protectorates.
-No applicant AAs (duh)[/quote]
I don't pretend to understand all the ins and outs of your own systems, so correct me if I'm wrong, but from those words it seems pretty clear.

Not that I really care one way or another, mind you, that's for your own government to worry about whether you were or weren't allowed to do so, but I am curious as to your answer.

[Hereno]

[quote name='Systemfailure' timestamp='1310566091' post='2755443']
[b]Raiders gonna raid haters gonna whine on the OWF, anyone who complains about raiding that isn't actively AIDing any and every nation getting raided is a hypocrite you want it to stop but your not willing to back up the defending nation with a little cash and some extra troops? its easy to talk but backing up those words isn't[/b] , its all well and good to complain about how someone plays the game but to actively say that you don't like the way they do things and that they should change their Alliance charter and stop raiding forever is just stupid.

As far as a small nation getting picked on goes, if it gets them into a protected AA quicker then if they were allowed to sit around doing nothing might help get them doing something constructive with their nation.

Also raiding will always exist because there is always going to be NONES and theres always going to be nations that need a little extra tech/land/casualties/fun if that fact is too hard to live with then im afraid that this planet isnt for you.
[/quote]


More like, "raiders gonna raid, tell you to do something about it, and then when you do something about it, they'll go and whine about it for days and brand you an 'ebil moralist'". That is literally what happened in this situation, in case you haven't been paying attention. Don't get me wrong, I personally love raiding, but the buckets full of raider tears on the OWF when someone decides to 'do something about it' are infinitely more satisfying than pounding an inactive noob's nation to dust. The "do something about it" argument works both ways. But we all saw what happened to the last alliance who raided regardless of protection, so you tell me.