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Joint Statement from the New Pacific Order and the Mushroom Kingdom

Mary the Fantabulous
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Penkala Newbie

Penkala

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[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1306664459' post='2719955']
Only one side has been hanging on to the past. I hope MK and your allies can move on now that NPO are below 5m NS, but we have been here before and when you and your allies have the motto "everything must die" and set a precedent of attacking anyone you like for no reason I doubt you will let peace mean peace. We all know what happens when your "top quality" members get bored. We will have to wait and see what happens when they rebuild because MKs word doesnt count for much when it comes to granting peace to an alliance.

Congrats NPO, your time will come MK.


They expect not to be talked to like they are dirt in their own house. Life is full of disappointments. How do you think them opening up their embassy to you again will make things better when you treated them like crap when they let you in before and after they banned your loutish members they ended up getting rolled.
[/quote]

I have a homework assignment for you. Take the amount of time equal to how long we've been terrorizing after Karma. So just under 2 years now. Then take that and pick any 1 year, 11-month period and apply it to any continuous 1 year, 11-month period between GWIII and Karma. Make a list of the wars NPO participated in and a list of the wars MK participated in. Until you do this, shut your mouth.

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Bob Janova Newbie

Bob Janova

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[quote]Then take that and pick any 1 year, 11-month period and apply it to any continuous 1 year, 11-month period between GWIII and Karma[/quote]
[url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/GW3]GW3[/url] to [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Karma_War]Karma[/url] was only 2 years and 6 days (end to beginning as quoted in the wiki). During that time, NPO felt the need to crush their old enemies (or at least support their hegemony-mates in doing it) three times, once each for FAN, GATO and MK. Since Karma, MK have attacked or supported attacks(*) on TPF then TOP/IRON etc in Bipolar, NSO in the Six Million Dollar War and NPO in this last war. So that's actually pretty even.

(*: In the case of TPF and NSO, they were on standby within the coalition, but the wars did not expand for them actually to be used. In Bipolar, TOP/IRON technically attacked them, but it has been stated during this last war when they were trying to backpedal on their position on pre-empting that they would have engaged TOP/IRON had they entered in a conventional fashion anyway – as Archon stated during Bipolar in the threadstarter for a huge thread, but people tried to spin it for months to claim that he didn't.)

The qualitative difference up until this last war was that the Hegemony was aggressive, held unreasonable grudges and was prepared to attack old enemies when an opportunity arose, even if that old enemy had done nothing to deserve it. Now we see the old Unjust Path taking out an old enemy (NPO) when the world is distracted with the PB-NpO war, when NPO had done nothing. It is becoming rather hard to see a quantitative difference these days.

I am glad to see peace reached on this front which should never have been opened.

[b]Edit:[/b] [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=80942]Here[/url] is the thread. There's some fun stuff about how terrible a pre-emptive attack is in there, and how a pre-empter shouldn't get white peace (never mind dictating terms!), considering that a year later that exact same man was planning and executing exactly that. But particularly related to the 'we would have hit them anyway' is this: [i]"We do indeed recognize the fact that, had TOP or IRON hit our allies, we would be honor bound to defend them."[/i] Every alliance in the SF coalition was chained into C&G in some way. If someone can be bothered to look through quotes from the last war you can find some better ones of MK people stating that they would have engaged TOP/IRON in that case.

Edited by Bob Janova
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Ardus Newbie

Ardus

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Before I respond to this post, I'd just like to point out to you, Bob, that you are working to kick open an argument that will no doubt run in endless circles. This circumstance is borne of a singular Alterego post in a thread that is in and of itself an absolute good: the conclusion of a war with the amicable restoration of relations between two of the primary combatants. I just want to point this out because if this thread turns to a 20 page quagmire of awful reading, I'm going to blame you. I said I want to set the past aside and look to today and tomorrow, but I simply can't ignore your post.

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1306684599' post='2720028']
[url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/GW3]GW3[/url] to [url=http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Karma_War]Karma[/url] was only 2 years and 6 days (end to beginning as quoted in the wiki). During that time, NPO felt the need to crush their old enemies (or at least support their hegemony-mates in doing it) three times, once each for FAN, GATO and MK. Since Karma, MK have attacked or supported attacks(*) on TPF then TOP/IRON etc in Bipolar, NSO in the Six Million Dollar War and NPO in this last war. So that's actually pretty even.[/quote]

The most immediately glaring error here is the "once each" bit. FAN suffered two VietFAN wars. GATO was flatly attacked to open the Third Great War as well as the GATO-1V war. MK is the only one that was actually directly attacked only once, but that's largely because I don't impute support for the Unjust War to Pacifica. You then ignore the innumerable other operations carried out by Pacifica's allies with her consent and support, including one in which Gremlins fought (Green Civil War)!

[quote](*: In the case of TPF and NSO, they were on standby within the coalition, but the wars did not expand for them actually to be used. In Bipolar, TOP/IRON technically attacked them, but it has been stated during this last war when they were trying to backpedal on their position on pre-empting that they would have engaged TOP/IRON had they entered in a conventional fashion anyway – as Archon stated during Bipolar in the threadstarter for a huge thread, but people tried to spin it for months to claim that he didn't.)[/quote]

This is nonetheless a far reach to overstate the aggressiveness of the Kingdom. In the case of TPF, assuming that you're talking about WWE, you equate a global war that didn't happen with ones that did. As for NSO, there probably hasn't been a more rock solid [i]casus belli[/i] in the history of CN--NSO government gave explicit support and assistance to an enemy of RoK. They were punished and then let go. Somehow trumpeting MK as a orchestrator behind any of this is ridiculous. As for TOP/IRON, I don't see how being prepared to engage them is a negative on the Kingdom. You'll recall that the Kingdom did not want that war to happen, nor did it play any role in sparking it. The war began because Polar declared on \m/. That seed had nothing to do with the Kingdom and was flatly contrary to its desires.

[quote]The qualitative difference up until this last war was that the Hegemony was aggressive, held unreasonable grudges and was prepared to attack old enemies when an opportunity arose, even if that old enemy had done nothing to deserve it. Now we see the old Unjust Path...[/quote]

Tell that to TPF. Furthermore your equation of presently existing alliances to ancestors is shameful.

[quote]...taking out an old enemy (NPO) when the world is distracted with the PB-NpO war, when NPO had done nothing. It is becoming rather hard to see a quantitative difference these days.[/quote]

The long and short of your post is that we've become the monster, but it's based on reaches in comparison and ignorance of the facts. It ultimately boils down to "You made a single, strategic, preemptive strike against Pacifica. Therefore you are just as bad as Pacifica was." I cannot contest that our decision was a radical one based on the purest forms of realpolitik (as I outlined in a rather length WoT some time ago that I do not have handy at the moment). But that is not enough to elevate the Kingdom to "monster" status, especially in a thread where we're wishing only good will and understanding upon an alliance we [i]just[/i] concluded fighting.

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Schattenmann Newbie

Schattenmann

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Posted (edited)

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1306687205' post='2720044']
with the amicable restoration
[/quote]

When I finish laughing I'll give the rest of your rationalization of MK's unwarranted aggression and extortion the full attention it deserves.

Edited by Schattenmann
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Ardus Newbie

Ardus

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[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1306688236' post='2720058']
When I finish laughing I'll give the rest of your rationalization of MK's unwarranted aggression and extortion the full attention it deserves.
[/quote]
And I'll give whatever response you offer the attention it deserves: nil. It's a beautiful Sunday and the weather demands I not spend it trading slings with you.

Besides, I wouldn't want to get in between that kinky relationship you and Sardonic have going.

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Bob Janova Newbie

Bob Janova

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[quote]The most immediately glaring error here is the "once each" bit. FAN suffered two VietFAN wars. GATO was flatly attacked to open the Third Great War as well as the GATO-1V war. MK is the only one that was actually directly attacked only once[/quote]
'Opening the Third Great War' is hardly between GW3 and Karma, is it? By that argument you can add MK attacking NPO in Karma to your count. I had forgotten that 'VietFAN' started after GW3, though to blame NPO for that is ridiculous (FAN directly, and unprovoked, attacked their protectorate).

[quote]Somehow trumpeting MK as a orchestrator behind any of this is ridiculous[/quote]
That's nice, but I didn't do that, so it's also irrelevant. I said you supported your coalition in each one – hardly a stretch, more a tautology.

[quote]I cannot contest that our decision was a radical one based on the purest forms of realpolitik (as I outlined in a rather length WoT some time ago that I do not have handy at the moment).[/quote]
That's really what it comes down to. MK is now playing the same amoral power politics games that the Hegemony did. Pure realpolitik is exactly what NPO has always been the embodiment of. And you've shown over three major wars in which you played a large part that you're happy to use very large (record!) reparations, co-opt moral arguments (pre-emption is bad!) when they suit you and then discard them when they don't, and start wars with no CB (or, at least, a CB as speculative and weak as that used in noCB).

Are you as bad as the NPO at its height? No, at the moment, you are not. But it becomes more likely, to me, that that is simply because you do not have the power available to be so, rather than due to any moral objection to it.

And yeah, you're 'showing goodwill'. Easy to do when you've just crushed an alliance, for a month beyond the end of the war that you claimed you were attacking them to prevent them from entering. You know what would actually have shown goodwill? [i]Not pre-emptively attacking.[/i] (Or failing that, peacing out when the war you were supposedly pre-empting their entry into ended.)

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Azaghul Newbie

Azaghul

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Do we really need [i]another[/i] thread with endless arguing about the start of this war and if "MK = the new hegemony"? It's a subject that's been beaten to death already.

I'm glad to see diplomatic relations with NPO restored.

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