RIA Treaty Cancellation

[Monster]

[quote name='Rampage3' timestamp='1302328443' post='2687285']
Try again. That war for Ragnarok had nothing to do with Pacifica, not that you would have had any issue with that. Get your facts together when you discuss my alliance. I expect more from you.
[/quote]

Why was everyone super excited for that very thing then? I'm not saying it was wrong or anything. Meh, it's ultimately immaterial even if you want to put a different spin on it to the larger point of RoK being a politically active alliance and exercising political control of its own in starting wars that would or could potentially escalate. If anything, I'd say VE hasn't really been acting differently than RoK in the past, so I'm not really condemning RoK, just saying the criticism doesn't work well.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[supercoolyellow]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1302329833' post='2687298']
Why was everyone super excited for that very thing then?
[/quote]

It was a war , hence everyone was excited.

[Monster]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1302330505' post='2687302']
It was a war , hence everyone was excited.
[/quote]

I did edit that for a reason but maybe it would have been better to edit it to "super excited to get NPO."

Edited April 9, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Timmmehhh]

Shame to see this, especially given the fact that VE and PB have fought many wars together with RIA and SF as a whole and we (PB) like SF a lot. It's not totally unexpected though with all the propaganda from our enemies which tries to portray VE and PB in a bad way.

Needless to say, FOK will continue to support our allies in VE and PB. We might be unpopular and hated by many but we have each others backs and that is what's matters for me.

[youwish959]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1302323798' post='2687262']
What Bob meant is antipathy towards NPO in a more general sense existed before PB and would have existed regardless of PB and NPO would have likely been attacked regardless of PB existing. To act as if your alliance wasn't into "bold political control" or that it wasn't trying to get NPO with the NSO war is kind of funny though, not that I had any issue with it at the time and still don't. Just seems like an odd criticism to make overall, especially when one of your allies is fighting NPO as well.


edit: Anyway, good luck to both parties.
[/quote]
Your an idiot if you think that the RoK - NSO war was driven to get at NPO. You obviously know nothing of the history of Ragnarok and the New Sith Order's intense rivalry.

[Monster]

That's not what you guys were saying, but no need to derail this further and it wouldn't be accurate to say NPO wasn't a factor at all. I just got tired of stuff like VE somehow being unique in "exercising firm political control."

Edited April 9, 2011 by Antoine Roquentin

[Omniscient1]

I love how people complain when friends decide they don't want to be allies anymore. Suck it up. If you're going down different FA paths then they'd make bad allies anyway.


[quote name='youwish959' timestamp='1302333813' post='2687314']
You obviously know nothing of the history of Ragnarok and the New Sith Order's intense rivalry.
[/quote]

I have no clue how much of a joke this is or not. However, since you mentioned it a quick thing to laugh at is that RoK done a poll on "what alliance would you like to roll next?" NSO won that poll.

A week later NSO got rolled by RoK. We're watching you Ragnarok .....

[Emperor Whimsical]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1302335520' post='2687321']
I love how people complain when friends decide they don't want to be allies anymore. Suck it up. If you're going down different FA paths then they'd make bad allies anyway.




I have no clue how much of a joke this is or not. However, since you mentioned it a quick thing to laugh at is that RoK done a poll on "what alliance would you like to roll next?" NSO won that poll.

A week later NSO got rolled by RoK. We're watching you Ragnarok .....
[/quote]

We have a similar one :>

[Williambonney]

[quote name='Antoine Roquentin' timestamp='1302334530' post='2687317']
That's not what you guys were saying, but no need to derail this further and it wouldn't be accurate to say NPO wasn't a factor at all. I just got tired of stuff like VE somehow being unique in "exercising firm political control."
[/quote]
Yeah I get tired of hearing that too. Being unique sucks. Sticking with tradition, that's fine if it pays off. But unique...

[Dontasemebro]

I had no problem with VE until I read their reaction in this thread. And I have a problem with most of our allies. Goddammit Xiphosis one day I'm going to murder your nation's first born children with a blunt object.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Dontasemebro

[Ernesto Che Guevara]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1302335520' post='2687321']
I love how people complain when friends decide they don't want to be allies anymore. Suck it up. If you're going down different FA paths then they'd make bad allies anyway.

[/quote]

This is, by far, one of the most intelligent things I have ever seen posted here.

[Holy Ruler]

And whoever said that the QnA thread of VE in the RIA forums died after 2 pages was not telling the truth. Thats all.

[King Wally]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1302335520' post='2687321']
I have no clue how much of a joke this is or not. However, since you mentioned it a quick thing to laugh at is that RoK done a poll on "what alliance would you like to roll next?" NSO won that poll.

A week later NSO got rolled by RoK. We're watching you Ragnarok .....
[/quote]

Yeah those polls are fun

Seriously though the RoK/NSO rivalry was pretty intense last year... NSO gave us a CB and well its needless to say we were as surprised as everyone else and jumped on it. We really arnt the scheming strategic thinking kind... we just like a good honest war and went for it. At the time we genuinly didn't want the thing going global and "trapping" NPO was the last thing on our mind. RoK attitude toward NPO post karma has been neutral at worst and certainly while some may distrust them theres no inherrant dislike or urge to destroy the NPO within RoK. If you had of taken a closer look at our "alliances we want to roll poll " taken at that time you would have seen the NPO didn't even make the top 10 cut.

The funny thing is after the war was over RoK and NSO relations improved markedly... it was like after all our posturing we finnaly got to unleash those pent up frustrations and then when calm realised they actually wern't so bad.

[Bob Janova]

[quote]I am 100% sure that as an alliance we would still defend you in a defensive war, but we have zero interest in fighting wars that were started by any one of our allies.[/quote]
Oh come on, if that was the case then you would not have cancelled an MDP. You were never under any obligation to join us in an aggressive war. In addition, you still have a treaty which can mandate that (SF).

[han fei zi]

[quote name='King Chill I' timestamp='1302271622' post='2686769']
I'd hit that.
[/quote]
Cool. So that's how you want to play it.

[ArneS]

[quote name='Opensource' timestamp='1302326081' post='2687274']
I read somewhere in the early pages regarding the Q&A on our forums, and the only answer we got regarding, "Why would you have us fight IAA when we aren't treatied to iFOK" was "we didn't make you fight anyone. It was your choice to support them." Which is not the case. We didn't really have any personal interest in helping out iFOK, it just happened because VE wanted us to. We fulfilled our obligations and fought in your war. Not many people in our alliance agreed with your CB, but being allies we followed through on our commitment. Now the war is over and we are reviewing all of our treaties. The general membership of RIA convened and decided to downgrade our treaty to an ODP.
[/quote]

Oh, come one. You realize that RIA wasn't obligated to attack IAA, but could just have denied VE's request to activate the Optional Aggression clause in your treaty? So yes, it was your choice to fight IAA, and blaming VE for it in hindsight doesn't make any sense.

[Xavii]

Message well received RIA.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Xavii

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1302335520' post='2687321']

I have no clue how much of a joke this is or not. However, since you mentioned it a quick thing to laugh at is that RoK done a poll on "what alliance would you like to roll next?" NSO won that poll.

A week later NSO got rolled by RoK. We're watching you Ragnarok .....
[/quote]

I remember that poll!! Other noteworthy alliances in that were Legion and i think Echelon [joke nomination] and there was another alliance which someone inserted and was fairly common in discussions on our boards that almost all voted for it.. later it was revealed that it was a TE alliance and the gov was making a funny.

So yeah Legion was second. unfinished business there Legionnaires... someday..

But seriously though, that poll did not create the two aid packets. It was actually good to be finally fighting the sith. I mean we had both been beating round the bush and butting heads in the multiple profanity filled QnA threads for a long time by then. The only thing that i remember more clearly than musso flipping us all the bird in the QnA [twice] is Grub shaking his head and repeatedly face-palming. The owf to and fro was getting tiresome too. So we put all that aside and heft was kind enough to provide a release valve.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Max Power' timestamp='1302271892' post='2686774']
Umbrella is a really hot woman. GOONS is her little cousin with ADHD and who is almost but not quite as hot. RIA is a fat chick. VE used to have a live-in relationship with RIA but then moved in with Umbrella and GOONS instead, while a bunch of Dutchmen and snake charmers came over every so often for parties. Problem is that even though you tell Umbrella and GOONS you love them, they were in a kinky three-way relationship with MK.

And that is apparently what this thread is about.
[/quote]

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

[Xavii]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1302350391' post='2687368']
I just threw up a little in my mouth.
[/quote]
You must do that a lot then if that's all it takes.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1302343223' post='2687346']
Yeah those polls are fun

Seriously though the RoK/NSO rivalry was pretty intense last year... NSO gave us a CB and well its needless to say we were as surprised as everyone else and jumped on it. We really arnt the scheming strategic thinking kind... we just like a good honest war and went for it. At the time we genuinly didn't want the thing going global and "trapping" NPO was the last thing on our mind. RoK attitude toward NPO post karma has been neutral at worst and certainly while some may distrust them theres no inherrant dislike or urge to destroy the NPO within RoK. If you had of taken a closer look at our "alliances we want to roll poll " taken at that time you would have seen the NPO didn't even make the top 10 cut.

The funny thing is after the war was over RoK and NSO relations improved markedly... it was like after all our posturing we finnaly got to unleash those pent up frustrations and then when calm realised they actually wern't so bad.
[/quote]

Thats how I remember it as well, although I enjoy and am entertained when people try to assign more then what is there. We all do it, ive done it but it dosent make it any less entertaining. Anyway I thought this was about Shatt? Now the umbrella people are here? GOONS coming in next or were they pages 4-8 ? Never let up Wally, say hi to Alfred for me.

[Goldie]

[quote name='King Wally' timestamp='1302343223' post='2687346']
Seriously though the RoK/NSO rivalry was pretty intense last year... NSO gave us a CB and well its needless to say we were as surprised as everyone else and jumped on it.
[/quote]

Jesus, you make it sound so not evil when someone hands you a CB and you go with it, rather than attempt to let them weasel out of it.

[Goldie]

[quote name='Opensource' timestamp='1302326081' post='2687274']
To be honest, I am a little surprised at how surprised and upset the VE members in this thread are. I read somewhere in the early pages regarding the Q&A on our forums, and the only answer we got regarding, "Why would you have us fight IAA when we aren't treatied to iFOK" was "we didn't make you fight anyone. It was your choice to support them." Which is not the case. We didn't really have any personal interest in helping out iFOK, it just happened because VE wanted us to. We fulfilled our obligations and fought in your war. Not many people in our alliance agreed with your CB, but being allies we followed through on our commitment. Now the war is over and we are reviewing all of our treaties. The general membership of RIA convened and decided to downgrade our treaty to an ODP.

As a person, I like Impero, and as a group, I generally like VE, but as an alliance, we were growing apart in our ideology and a downgrade was necessary.

I am 100% sure that as an alliance we would still defend you in a defensive war, but we have zero interest in fighting wars that were started by any one of our allies.
[/quote]

I was the one who said that to you. You decided to fight IAA, not us. We can't make decisions for you, nor have we ever tried to.

We were always there for you and your allies when they started wars, and had I known at the time it would make you guys so angry to shed a little NS fighting someone much smaller than you like IAA, I'm sure we could have done things differently and let you sit out and gain your sanction and flag while in peace.

I'm sad that I spent so much time answering questions forged from clear misconceptions of what went on, and saw that you guys seemed to be satisfied with how it was going. The thread went to its fourth page, not the two that Impero said, but the point is the same. Generally, when the last four posts include 3 about which browser Impero is using, and one about Impero's political skills, and everyone seemingly satisfied that the Q+A had run it's course, that's when you sit there and say to yourself that why would they cancel the treaty, Delta said the membership had concerns and we were quick to address them.

RIA was my first job as a diplomat around two years ago. I was one of the biggest supporters of what became the MDoAP upgrade. I'm angry at how this ended up, angry at how people like James Dahl see this through the blinders that they have put on, angry at how involved RIA was in this from the start, but their membership felt like they were being 'dragged'.

I've heard comments about how 'I liked VE before this thread but after this I don't know.' Cancellation is not the act of a friend, and you do not see how we are (rightfully) jilted? I'm sure with work down the road our relationship can mend, for the same reasons it stayed strong for well over two years, but for now, allow us our moment of anger/sadness at an old friend doing this to us.

[raasaa]

Now i know what the NV-VE treaty cancellation thread will look like......and i hate RIA for stealing the bull !@#$ reason that we were going to use

[Wabooz]

It's good enough reason for multiple alliances. Don't fret. Also, hats off to RIA for taking care of business, no matter how difficult of a choice it was.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Wabooz