RIA Treaty Cancellation

[KemMo]

o/ RIA

Good luck in the future guys/

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302276111' post='2686833']
Times change. People change. You should know this better then most, since you went from being a respected and somewhat revered member of the community to an over the top joke of a human being who makes an ass of himself at every turn since he cant cope with the fact that the days of TWIP are over. We still hold a treaty with RIA, and still hold treaties and good relationships with all our other allies save Rok. We've done the things that are best for us, the things that needed to be done, and do not hold regret simply because a cancellation wrought of misconception without any attempt to make those concerns known may have came about as a result.

We are disappointed that this came about, but if there is any consolation, it's that we all get to see the ridiculous side of you that comes about every time you smell a VE thread in the air.
[/quote]
Now that was a good, solid response. We're gonna make a Lord Protector out of you yet! These are some things you should explain to your more incensed members and subordinates; things change. They picked a new path with you and they're going to have to accept that it means a different path than their old pals.

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302276111' post='2686833']
the days of TWIP are over.[/quote]
You think so?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Felix von Agnu]

I look forward to This Week in Virida. I want to know how the small things, like banking and tech deals, are going in the alliance.

[Chief Savage Man]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302276114' post='2686834']
I advocate tight, logical, policy/ideology-based foreign policy in regards to all alliances, and cheer it in regards to all alliances. But if pigeonholing makes the world easier for you to understand, be my guest.
[/quote]

Not about you, sweetypie. The first few posts I saw in here seemed to be positively glowing that something bad was happening to VE. And an alliance that I founded had a foriegn policy for a good period of time that could be accurately described as "$%&@ the Viridian Entente". If people are happy about this because VE were scumbags regarding the Polar thing or because they think RIA weren't good allies or whatever, that's fantastic. Being spiteful and nasty for the sake of it doesn't seem to belong in a place like this. We should at least attempt to maintain an illusion of legitimate discourse.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1302276384' post='2686839']
I look forward to This Week in Virida. I want to know how the small things, like banking and tech deals, are going in the alliance.
[/quote]
I think I've got enough 50-pagers about tech deals and banking under my belt to prove that it's the small things like banking and tech deals that matter when placed in their wider context

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Chief Savage Man' timestamp='1302276524' post='2686841']
Not about you, sweetypie. The first few posts I saw in here seemed to be positively glowing that something bad was happening to VE. And an alliance that I founded had a foriegn policy for a good period of time that could be accurately described as "$%&@ the Viridian Entente". If people are happy about this because VE were scumbags regarding the Polar thing or because they think RIA weren't good allies or whatever, that's fantastic. Being spiteful and nasty for the sake of it doesn't seem to belong in a place like this. We should at least attempt to maintain an illusion of legitimate discourse.
[/quote]
I'll agree, with my apologies for rolling out the jumpt to conclusions mat. What this boils down to for me is the same thing I've been saying for a long time: Friendship is not a foreign policy. War and treties are political, and once an alliance starts getting pulled into wars that shouldn't happen or that are contrary to their political ideologies or interests, regardless of how much of a friend their ally is, it's time to drop the ally part and just be friends. I congratulate RIA not on cancelling on VE, but on keeping the two things in their place.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[Mompson]

I think my respect for RIA just went up about 200%.

o/ RIA

[The Trail]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302274783' post='2686810']
You leave Sparta and MHA out of this, [i]mister![/i]
[/quote]

But I love MHA (dont care about sparta, sorry fella's)

[Bill Wallace]

If the result of this cancellation is a weekly "TWiV", then I can comfortably say that it's a win/win for everyone.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302276659' post='2686844']
I'll agree, with my apologies for rolling out the jumpt to conclusions mat. What this boils down to for me is the same thing I've been saying for a long time: Friendship is not a foreign policy. War and treties are political, and once an alliance starts getting pulled into wars that shouldn't happen or that are contrary to their political ideologies or interests, regardless of how much of a friend their ally is, it's time to drop the ally part and just be friends. I congratulate RIA not on cancelling on VE, but on keeping the two things in their place.
[/quote]

Oh come now, lets try and not be such a disingenuous hack while your still standing on your soapbox dressed up in your clown costume. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you actually are fond of that ideal, but we all know why you're happy about this, and it has nothing to do with the principals of why treaties should be signed and held :

[img]http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff246/cndump/Lugosi/schattenve.png[/img]

Unless you were agreeing with the fact that you have no place here?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Il Impero Romano

[Proxian Empire]

I suddenly like RIA quite a bit, how strange.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302279489' post='2686876']
Oh come now, lets try and not be such a disingenuous hack while your still standing on your soapbox dressed up in your clown costume. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you actually are fond of that ideal, but we all know why you're happy about this, and it has nothing to do with the principals of why treaties should be signed and held

Unless you were agreeing with the fact that you have no place here?
[/quote]
Do you know what I like about me? I have philosophies and ideals that guide my actions, and I'm consistent on them. One of those ideals is a foreign policy that is congruent with internal policy:

[size="4"]2011:[/size]
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1301721369' post='2682720']
This is not a critique only of Europa, it is a critique of almost every alliance. You're all hopeless. You have outlined your own problem [i]exactly[/i] as I have already stated it:

The core problem of the treaty web is this "love" and "friend" childishness. And that is exactly what it is, infantility in foreign affairs. Treaties are political--not social--commitments. The transformation of treaties from political tools to popularity contests has destroyed all integrity in treaty commitments. Why is that? Because while alliances sign treaties over they still go to war to achieve political means. They have moved treaties--which are tools of war--out of the political realm, while war retains its political nature, thereby creating a conflicting reality, a dichotomy that cannot be reconciled. Practitioners of this huggles diplomacy decry PZI while MADPing alliances that PZI, they decry techraiding while joining blocs with rampant raiding alliances, they talk about white peace while MDoAPing alliances hellbent on reps--and vice versa. They make claims as to their uniqueness and intrinsic values, but don't understand or practice unity of foreign and internal policy, they make themselves flavorless social clubs, or brainless meatswarms fit for nothing but doing what they're told. Their hands are tied by their own lazy, sloppy, stupid practices, and they turn around and complain about how bored they are.[/quote]

[size="4"]2010:[/size]
[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1274243825' post='2302971']
It is outright irresponsible, ignorant, and negligent to maintain a high-level military treaty with an alliance whose foreign affairs are not in line with your own. Nemesis' cancellation is not punitive, it is realistic. And that is what Digiterra needs more than anything: More logic in its treatying, and less emotion. It is the treaty-whoring and treaty-hoarding of your generation that created some of the worst acts in Digiterran history, and it will be realism in foreign affairs that prevents repeats in the present and future. Every alliance should tell every one of its allies exactly how prospective treaties will effect current relations, and every alliance should alter its treaties when the changing foreign affairs policies of its allies are not in line with its own foreign affairs.

The hurfdurfing mobs of rulers have already disregarded the several other factors that are extraneous to the TOOL treaty that went into this decision--and there were plenty; however, in respect to all the reasons, I for one applaud and laud Nemesis' decision to conduct [i]its own affairs[/i] in [i]its own interests[/i]!
[/quote]

Whammy.

I [still] for one applaud and laud RIA's decision to conduct [i]its own affairs[/i] in [i]its own interests[/i]!

Are you guys bored? You want a war to save the planet from imploding under the weight of boredom caused by lack of war? Curbstomps never were and still are not the answer. Hate to break it to you, PB and Dh--I mean VE managed to lose over 30 nations in a winning war.
Your overlapping, illogical, wub-based treaties are the cause, and getting rid of them is the solution.
VE has never, ever, once in its entire history understood this concept. Ever. Consequently, VE has gone around decrying PZI while backslapping PZIers, talking high morality about curbstomps while propping up curbstompers. On and on and on. In this very thread you continue to demonstrate your basic inability to understand the way a foreign policy works. That has been my criticism of VE for years and if my crystal ball is still working, it will continue to be my criticism of VE for years to come. VE doesn't get it.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[kriekfreak]

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1302255796' post='2686677']
I'm glad to see our assistance in fighting IAA is appreciated by iFOK.
[/quote]

Although that was nice, it didn't even come close to helping us. 1) You didn't came in for us but for your allies. 2) You attacked our Stickmen Brethern. 3) You double crossed our whole side, first joined our coalition channel and then decided to play both sides.

It is also funny that you guys claim that you feel like 2nd rate allies because of PB while being in SF for such a long time. Did VE ever feel like a second rate ally? Perhaps. But at least they didn't whine about it like you are doing.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1302280733' post='2686897']
It is also funny that you guys claim that you feel like 2nd rate allies because of PB while being in SF for such a long time. Did VE ever feel like a second rate ally? Perhaps. But at least they didn't whine about it like you are doing.
[/quote]
If VE ever felt like a second-rate ally in the past, then VE was free to grow a set and cancel the treaty and practice some common sense in FP.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302280341' post='2686892']
Whammy, you know what makes me great? Consistency:





I [still] for one applaud and laud RIA's decision to conduct [i]its own affairs[/i] in [i]its own interests[/i]!
[/quote]

Alright, so you've used the same justification for your conduct after acting like a fool in other threads that don't involve you. And yet, you can't hide, and don't even try to hide, the fact that your entire ridiculous persona is seething with spite. Look at yourself. Every word you write has an ulterior motive because, after failing as an alliance leader a few times, its the only way you have left to further your personal grudges. However, I do have to say its been wonderful watching you get more and more transparent as you crashed and burned over this past year.

By all means though, continue.

[Ragashingo]

Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal if the emergency backup treaty is still in effect. But if this results in VE having even *that* much less support in its next unnecessary war then it can be considered a good thing.

No hails for anybody, though a couple of you in here could use a firing squad...

[Colonel Heinrich]

This is too funny.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Heinrich Schuster

[Holy Ruler]

This isn't personal. .

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302281126' post='2686904']
Alright, so you've used the same justification for your conduct after acting like a fool in other threads that don't involve you. And yet, you can't hide, and don't even try to hide, the fact that your entire ridiculous persona is seething with spite. Look at yourself. Every word you write has an ulterior motive because, after failing as an alliance leader a few times, its the only way you have left to further your personal grudges. However, I do have to say its been wonderful watching you get more and more transparent as you crashed and burned over this past year.

By all means though, continue.
[/quote]
I've led two alliances: Vox and CoJ; they were both smashing successes. But you digress; I find it odd that you cannot simply agree or disagree with my position. You do understand why this treaty has been cancelled, don't you? You understand that treaties are endorsements and that alliances have to decide what they will or will not endorse?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Schattenmann

[SADeki]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302283653' post='2686938']
I've led two alliances: Vox and [b]CoJ[/b]; they were both [b]smashing successes[/b].
[/quote]

Uh, What?

[caligula]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302274783' post='2686810']
You leave Sparta and MHA out of this, [i]mister![/i][/quote]

Yes, nothing to see here.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302246879' post='2686631']
That's just simply not true, and maybe if you would have taken some time to talk with us about it instead of ending a treaty that has lasted over years without mentioning a single word about having this type of concern, you would have known it. I understand your a direct democracy, but ask Delta how many situations I've worked with him on, both before PB and after.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]I hate to interject in a (former) lovers' quarrel, but no, not really. I love to interject. I am in neither VE nor RIA, but even I saw that there was trouble in the relationship. You need only have paid attention to some of the things said by RIA members last war. It doesn't take much to see when a relationship is starting to go sour.

Anyway, I don't think this is as much of a shock to you as you say it is. I know that you're not a stupid man. You saw this coming as well, and as much as you might like to blame RIA for not doing anything to remedy the problems, let me ask you, what did you do? I'm willing to bet nothing, because quite frankly James Dahl is right. Ever since VE shacked up with PB, you've simply had friends with more political sway. VE finally has the kind of power that it has wanted for years, and it just doesn't need its old allies as much.

You may say I'm full of it, but I'm only saying what I've heard. Not from RIA, no. I really don't talk to them all that often, but you do have other allies, both current and former, who have noticed a change in VE since it joined PB.[/color]

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1302255090' post='2686671']
Acquire SOS Brigade, disregard VE.

I can't say I'm sad about this seeing all the things RIA pulled lately.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]What exactly has RIA pulled lately? Quite honestly they're one of the few respectable alliances in your corner of the world. The last war I saw nothing but class coming out of RIA, and in a completely stupid situation (and I cannot empathize enough how utterly idiotic that entire war was), RIA defended and assisted each of its allies. What are you condemning them for? No longer wishing to be associated with your club?[/color]

Edited April 8, 2011 by Rebel Virginia

[Facade]

You haven't changed since I met you RIA.

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1302283653' post='2686938']
I've led two alliances: Vox and CoJ; they were both smashing successes. But you digress; I find it odd that you cannot simply agree or disagree with my position. You do understand why this treaty has been cancelled, don't you? You understand that treaties are endorsements and that alliances have to decide what they will or will not endorse?
[/quote]

CoJ is a floundering micro based around people who get aroused looking at your picture. Vox was an alliance in the loosest sense of the words, success notwithstanding. Browncoats was a smashing success too right? No jesus speech this time? Anyway, I'm not talking about why the treaty was canceled, I'm talking about you showing up for a change, draping yourself in VE garb, and going all ADD on a matter to try and turn it into a propaganda point for your own selfish aims on behalf of a party that doesn't want you to.

You have a habit of doing this in treaty cancellation threads, and it's pretty telling.

[Schattenmann]

[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302285338' post='2686952']
CoJ is a floundering micro based around people who get aroused looking at your picture. Vox was an alliance in the loosest sense of the words, success notwithstanding. Browncoats was a smashing success too right? No jesus speech this time? [/quote]
I keep trying to make this about ideas and you keep rubbing your pants and talking about me. I did not lead Browncoats, I was a GOONS spy who happened to be the MoFA. Lamuella took over after I left at the conclusion of the Bubblegum War, talk to him about the disbandment, not me. Cult of Justitia is an organization founded upon ideals and which acts upon them, and it membership is comprised of rulers who are attracted by those ideals mostly in spite of me; they are former Senators of GATO, Presidents of GPA, founders and Senators of Vox Populi, NPO MilCom, and Sith Marauders (etc) not the feeble-minded fanclub you'd love them to be. As an organization we've united post-Moldavi-Doctrine Red, stood up to alliances 100 times our size, and never backed down from our ideals despite their tendency to make life very difficult. Any struggle we face is an inner struggle to prune ourselves, cultivating ourselves consciously. We live as free rulers never having asked for permission to exist and neve signing away our sovereignty. Whether we had 2 nations or 30 we have always done exactly what we want to do, our success is not in numbers.
[quote name='Il Impero Romano' timestamp='1302285338' post='2686952']
Anyway, I'm not talking about why the treaty was canceled, I'm talking about you showing up for a change, draping yourself in VE garb, and going all ADD on a matter to try and turn it into a propaganda point for your own selfish aims on behalf of a party that doesn't want you to. You have a habit of doing this in treaty cancellation threads, and it's pretty telling.
[/quote]
You must be a poor, lost soul if you don't understand why I am discussing foreign affairs in a treaty cancellation thread. Maybe Goldie can explain it to you, the mustache tells me he's a smart guy. This is the alliance politics forum, it is where anyone and everyone discusses mattters of alliance politics. We come here and talk about ideas and philosophies, to argue and to debate, to announce and to discuss. If you are incapable of doing those things, there are places where you can leave your brain on the bar and talk about your favorite band. Foreign policy is not propaganda, nor is it "ADD" in a foreign affairs thread.