Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Sileath]

Interested in an eternal war? Not really! Ready to keep fighting until a solution is reached? By all means.

The Archon has spoken

Three defensive slots open at the moment

Come get some, NPO

[Londo Mollari]

No this has been your conduct this war.

1) Wildly post huge lies and slander when you knew they were an incorrect depiction of events regarding GGA and NPO, because you were after revenge.

2) Accuse anyone that differs from your view of the world as an NPO agent of some sort (NSO?)

3) Try to get 7 Billion 300k tech out of an estimated 50 members in a 70-80 day war(your counter concept) that will be within the rep requirements, all the while justifying it by the 10k tech you had to pay to NPO using your 65 in a 13 day war.

The only one I see posting lies and slander here is you.

[Angrator]

Never claimed he was responding to the Vanguard guy who been alluding to it for the past x pages this thread is. And why does it boggle your mind, to think anyone would want to the evil NPO's friend; we have friends and I would rather support them verses being kept in E-Terms.

Umm.... Okay?

You never answered my original post, and it seems like you have now got to the point where you are just repeating propaganda that you presumably memorized from your forums. I think now may be an appropriate time to conclude this discussion.

[Lord Valleo]

I don't think you know what the word "karma" means, do you?

Thank you once again for showing you cannot make a post with any substance.

As always Flame On

[iamthey]

Also for an alliance like Pacifica that has committed heinous crimes and is only in this position due to arrogance and gross incompetence, you seem to act like you are still #1 in the game. Time to face some facts.

What is this gross incompetence you refer to?

[Londo Mollari]

You don't have to accept, you can refuse, no one can force you to do anything. If you choose to do it, you can't hold anger against those who offered as it was your choice.

The same goes for you and your alliance.

[Zeta Defender]

2 weeks = indefinite? Did I miss something (honest question)?

2 Weeks at 90% for the full 2 weeks which is only 7 nations not in compliance. I had finals this week, many graduate, so if you think 90% is possible. Prove that you can get in touch with 90% of any alliance by means not limited to forums.

[Zeta Defender]

The same goes for you and your alliance.

Yes we refused. Thank you have a nice night...

[Denial]

I recall STA taking unfair terms public, and I recall it working out to their favor. I don't see what is wrong with them making this stuff public for the OWF to see; alliance's should be held accountable for what they do in the backrooms.

There's a world of difference between STA and NPO, starting with the fact that NPO are wholly responsible for this war.

OOC: Also, I do plan on responding to your previous, rather lengthy post. I'm alternating between posting and studying at the moment.

[Nintenderek]

Thank you once again for showing you cannot make a post with any substance.

As always Flame On

That certainly doesn't answer my question, as I am a curious man, and wish to know if any of the people whining that "Karma is just as bad as NPO for these terms" actually realize what the word Karma actually means. It implies that when you do bad things, equally bad things happen to you. Sadly, this is not equal to the two years of war you guys gave FAN.

[Ogaden]

The only one I see posting lies and slander here is you.

No mhawk is absolutely right, you have acted in bad faith from the start.

Edited June 13, 2009 by James Dahl

[Angrator]

I don't think you know what the word "karma" means, do you?

We've tried to tell them about this issue. They claim they know about it, but then demonstrate their ignorance of the concept in discussion. I wish you the best. It's not easy getting through to some people.

[St Heliers]

Some of these terms look troubling, forcing nations out of peace mode and tech from above 1k tech nations seems like a throwback to the bad old days.

Poor show whomever wrote those terms.

[Roadie]

2 weeks = indefinite? Did I miss something (honest question)?

Yes. The clock doesn't start until 90% are out of PM.

[Ragashingo]

You guys fought for 13 days.

We've just reached day 52 of nuclear war. Additionally its going to spend another 14min-indefinite days of war before the reps even start.

Oh the horror. GATO's war was ~3 months, so I guess you'd almost be there if you accepted the terms today.

[mhawk]

2 weeks = indefinite? Did I miss something (honest question)?

Yes, the 2 week counter doesn't start until 90% of all nations and 90% of nations over 4k infra are in war mode. With 750 members and ghosts and a rapidly diminishing member base over 4k infra, the entire alliance could end up being held in war due to 5 or less members complying, which could be guys on vacation or ghosts or inactives.

[Ogaden]

That certainly doesn't answer my question, as I am a curious man, and wish to know if any of the people whining that "Karma is just as bad as NPO for these terms" actually realize what the word Karma actually means. It implies that when you do bad things, equally bad things happen to you. Sadly, this is not equal to the two years of war you guys gave FAN.

We never said Karma is just as bad.

This is far beyond the pale for us, this is far worse than anything we could ever come up with.

[Azaghul]

Our nations, save a very small amount, would not end with 100m + warchests.

Enough would to both pay the money terms and send funds to others to pay the tech terms.

Our nations would be short of 50,000 tech to pay the terms you want.

A lot can be created as it's sent.

Our nations would not be able to "buy back up to 1000 tech if they had to" because 55% of them will have no warchests and no income.

Less than 50% are needed to pay the terms, and others have enough tech on hand that they won't go under 1000 in two weeks of war.

[Denial]

What is this gross incompetence you refer to?

You are aware of how Pacfica entered this war, correct? I do not believe I am alone in considering the alienation of allies, throwing others under a bus, and attacking during peace negotiations mediated by another ally as grossly incompetent. Not to mention, had Pacifica complied with the previous ultimatum regarding peace mode nations, the war would likely be concluding as we speak, with much lighter reparations.

[Ramirus Maximus]

Karma actually means, doing your duty and everyone duty is different. Only by fulfilling your dharma can you receive mocha. Go read the B Gita if you doubt what I am saying. Also I can personally give you the names of PhDs to argue this if you really want to go there.

I'm a PhD. I was also alive when the Dharma Bums was popular.

But my doctorate is in math. I understand that not everyone has one, but surely you guys have taken 5th grade arithmetic...right?

[mhawk]

The only one I see posting lies and slander here is you.

Care to explain those actions listed then if I'm posting lies?

[Ogaden]

We've tried to tell them about this issue. They claim they know about it, but then demonstrate their ignorance of the concept in discussion. I wish you the best. It's not easy getting through to some people.

For you guys, Karma seems to be "we get to do whatever we want, and you can't say anything about it"

[Cortath]

The above is a little image thrown in for my NPO economics folk. You should get it.

Many people have thrown out numbers in this thread about what we "can" pay. Here is my analysis.

Background

The economics is this:

300K tech from the nations who have 1K+. That's about 180.

7B or 233.33K tech from anyone.

At least 25K/month from the 300K must be given every month. And something like 580M from the money. That means about 34K tech, if you convert it to tech.

Firstly, what should be recognized is that you're creating two alliances, essentially. An alliance of 181 people that have to pay 300K tech, and the whole alliance that can pay the 7B/233.3K tech.

Getting to War

Before we get those lovely 2 weeks of peace mode, we have to get 90% of our nations above 4K infra out of PM, and 90% of our total alliance out of PM.

That means we can get 7 nations in PM above 4K infra, and about 70 nations alliance-wide still in PM.

This is mid-June. The New Pacific Order presently has orders for nations to be cycling in and out of peace mode as needed to lose nuclear anarchy. Many nations aren't following those Orders. Why? [OOC]Probably RL. Sometimes those of us who are able to up late at night posting on these forums forget that a lot of people are not able to engage in a war the way we want them to. It's June, people. Most schools are ending. Most colleges are ended/ending. Kids are starting summer jobs. Let's face it, most of the CN user base is in school or young and working.[/ooc] Achieving a 90% war mode rate is ridiculous. Karma's demand that we expel loyal members, some of whom have been around for years, who might be a little busy right now, is ridiculous.

But that's what we have to do to get to 2 weeks of war.

A significant point to consider also, is the number of ghosts in our alliance. While normally we are very good at removing ghosts, they're obviously not a top military priority. Ghosts frequently stay in the NPO, because most alliances are/were afraid to attack an NPO nation, even if it does appear to be a ghost. With an alliance as ridden with ghosts as we are, and that's not even beginning to consider any foul play that may be afoot, we have a lot of PM nations as well.

However long it takes, some things are certain: more nations will lose money, infra, tech, and land. More warchests will be depleted. Those nations in PM will continue to lose money due to the PM happiness modifier.

Two Weeks of War

Then comes two weeks of war for PM nations. Except it won't be just two weeks of war. Many of our nations will be in war much longer because as they get out of peace mode, there will be a lag from the time they get out, to when the "magic numbers" of 90% are hit.

Karma isn't fools. They prepared these terms, and I assume they're prepared for war.

We expect no less than 3v1 on our banking nations. Karma is 18 alliances on our front, and they can pick the choicest, elite fighters from their alliances to carefully plan and orchestrate an attack on a much smaller foe.

Assuming a single attacker at a high NS, with all the improvements and wonders such a nation should have, etc., etc., these are the damage estimates for such a war:

Nukes: 240 infra/day

Ground: 64 infra/day

CM: 32 infra/day

Aircraft 64 infra/day.

Multiple all but nukes by three and then 14. Multiple nukes by 13. Add it all together.

You lose 9,840 infra.

Tech:

80 from nukes.

16 from ground.

9.6 from CMs.

Do the same calculations, and your nation loses 2115.2 tech.

Land:

240 from nukes.

64 from ground.

Do the same calculations and your nation 5808 land.

So, let sum up war here. A nation at war will lose 9,840 infra, 2115.5 tech, and 5808 land. All nations but 25 will be ZIed. We will have two nations above 5K infra. Certainly, as one gets lower, the damage will lessen, but once you're that low, it doesn't matter much, from a rebuilding perspective. It's buying higher infra that is impossible.

Analysis of the Effect of War on the Ability to Pay Reparations

Alrighty. So an alliance of 700 odd nations now have 300K tech to pay from 181 nations, all of whom are ZI except 25, none of whom are banker level except two. We also have to pay 7B, or 233.3K tech, if you convert that to tech, but that can be from everyone.

Now, some people are going to claim "massive war chests." It ain't there people. 7 weeks of nuclear war, plus stints in PM, or for our banks, 7 weeks in PM, hurts those warchests a lot, even billion dollar warchests. Yes, some nations might have billion dollar warchests at the end of the war, but the catch has never been the size of the warchest, but how much you can send out. 18M/cycle just doesn't even take out a chunk of these types of reparations.

Generally speaking, when one has had to give out reparations or produce tech, that tech can be funded somehow, or subsidized. No can-do here, because the banks are gone. Smaller nations are also not allowed to sell tech outside the NPO due to these terms.

Now, again, generally speaking, people point to 180 nations, and say, oh look, you can just multiply all the slots by the nations over time and pay it off easy!

Here's the problem with that kind of thinking:

1. It assumes all 180 nations are active. Really, with programs like these, you can't expect much better than 50-60% activity. You know how I know? I asked the MK guys during negotiations how many nations paid off their tech reps, and it was far less than that percentage as a percentage of their alliance.

2. It assumes that every single slot will always be used, always. That's just ridiculous. There are very few nations on the Planet that manage that have all 4/5/6 slots filled every day, and we're no different. You lose efficiency from that.

3. It assumes that all these nations will have money with which to purchase and send tech, or just plain good ol' money lying around to send to Karma. Right now, we literally have 47 nations at ZI. I don't mean people with 100 infra, I mean people with 0.00 infrastructure. We have 402 members under 200 infrastructure, 511 under 500. You can look up the stats for yourselves, but we don't have nations who can either produce money or tech to send as reparations, particularly not when the Bank, which possibly could be used to fund a rebuilding/reparations effort, will have been destroyed by war.

4. Most Karma estimates I've seen presented only looked at paying off the 300K, or the 7B, but but not both at once. It would be a monumental task to do either one of them, but it's entirely a different story to do both, particularly given that they both come from different sources due to the 1K+ tech restriction on where the 300K tech has to come from.

Conclusion

The New Pacific Order seriously considered these terms. We went to the negotiation table about a month ago asking Karma alliances for terms to surrender. We went to them in good faith that they would present something that would be possible for us to pay. What was presented was not possible in anything less than a year at the best, most likely a year and a half. There's a range because there are ranges of slot efficiencies that you can make estimates for, a range of participation levels from your members you can make estimates for, and a range of damage you can make estimates for based on the 14 days of wars.

Karma did not give us terms we could possibly take. We presented them a counter-offer. It was more money and more tech than any alliance or group of alliances have ever received in any war, ever. It was more than the amount that they had asked for initially. Why they did not take that counter-offer, I could not tell you.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Cortath

[Ramirus Maximus]

ha ha ha ha this war has only started if a bunch of $@! licking !@#$%bags are doing all the talking, OMG i want a billion form NPO get over yourselves a bunch of war mongering and war failing jerks trying to get every time they can to replace their invaluable pixels seirously i might quit CN over your absurd dignity, your not half the man you thought and if your a women your still more of a man.

[rsoxbronco1]

Looks who talking. I know for a fact Athens was willing to accept a rogue NPO member as a spy so please don't tell me about underhanded tactics and bellicose actions.

huh?

Are you talking about the guy who randomly queried me last night?