Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Mathlete]

If the alliance disbanded, then how did the NPO kill the alliance?

I think I've gone cross-eyed trying to figure that one out. Couldn't the members of gone to another alliance and had that alliance go to bat for them?

Holding a man at gun point and telling him to commit suicide is still murder.

Well, to those of us who have any moral fiber.

[Roadie]

They got rid of tech so their NS was lower?

That's how I read it. Which I'm not sure I understand. Unless maybe for the purpose of helping themselves out in the ground war. Having too much of your NS percentage from tech can get you clobbered on the ground due to lack of troops/tanks.

[noob5]

[snip]

Getting to War

Before we get those lovely 2 weeks of peace mode, we have to get 90% of our nations above 4K infra out of PM, and 90% of our total alliance out of PM.

That means we can get 7 nations in PM above 4K infra, and about 70 nations alliance-wide still in PM.

This is mid-June. The New Pacific Order presently has orders for nations to be cycling in and out of peace mode as needed to lose nuclear anarchy. Many nations aren't following those Orders. Why? [OOC]Probably RL. Sometimes those of us who are able to up late at night posting on these forums forget that a lot of people are not able to engage in a war the way we want them to. It's June, people. Most schools are ending. Most colleges are ended/ending. Kids are starting summer jobs. Let's face it, most of the CN user base is in school or young and working.[/ooc] Achieving a 90% war mode rate is ridiculous. Karma's demand that we expel loyal members, some of whom have been around for years, who might be a little busy right now, is ridiculous.

But that's what we have to do to get to 2 weeks of war.

A significant point to consider also, is the number of ghosts in our alliance. While normally we are very good at removing ghosts, they're obviously not a top military priority. Ghosts frequently stay in the NPO, because most alliances are/were afraid to attack an NPO nation, even if it does appear to be a ghost. With an alliance as ridden with ghosts as we are, and that's not even beginning to consider any foul play that may be afoot, we have a lot of PM nations as well.

However long it takes, some things are certain: more nations will lose money, infra, tech, and land. More warchests will be depleted. Those nations in PM will continue to lose money due to the PM happiness modifier.

[snip]

I want to elaborate on a claim that fellow Officer Cortath said here, namely that meeting that 90% requirement of Karma is unreasonable.

As reference, here is the term in question below:

1) The New Pacific Order shall move the bulk of its forces into warmode for 2 weeks prior to the end of combat. When 90% or more of all nations at or above 4,000 infrastructure and additionally 90% or more of the alliance is in warmode, a countdown clock shall begin, starting on the day immediately after the above conditions have been met. A state of open warfare shall exist between the signatories of this document for a period of exactly 14 days. After the period of 14 days has elapsed no further attacks are to occur, peace is to be offered in all quarters, and the period of protection specified in part C of this agreement will begin.

An analysis of Term #1:

Based on tally done after the 6/10 update, we had 148 nations flying the New Pacific Order Alliance Affiliation that met the following conditions:

1. Nation was in peace mode.

2. Nation had no wars that expired 1 cycle ago according to the "Search Wars" tab. (i.e. no wars 7 days or earlier)

3. Nation had a flat or positive nation strength trend since mid May.

After doing some background checks, we found that 22 of those nations were in fact ghosts flying the AA without actual membership, with membership being determined by a matching nation link in our forum's member nation roster.

Additionally, a sizable chunk of 36-56 of those nations were banks. (exact number omitted for security reasons)

Thus, we found 70-90 so-called "peace mode violators" who refused to leave peace mode despite repeated orders to fight.

The quoted text indicates that 90% or more of NPO nations must exit peace mode for two weeks for this conflict to end. If this term is accepted, it is reasonable to think that the aforementioned peace mode violators will not exit to receive their mandated punishment. Having been told repeatedly to fight over the course of this extended war, there is no reason to believe that they would leave when ordered again.

The number of peace mode violators significantly crosses or runs very closely to the specified threshold dictated by the Karma coalition. (We currently have 731 nations flying our AA, a number which will likely decrease over time, increasing the percentage.) The degree of variance introduced by the estimated number of banks is almost irrelevant, as we skirt dangerously close to 10% in even the most "optimistic" of scenarios. Remember, by assuming we have less banks, you assume that the payment of reparations will be harder too.

From here, one can see that this term is nigh impossible.

And this is even working under the assumption that Karma accepts that 22 of our violators are ghosts, and accepts that a decent portion of these peace mode nations are banks. It is very possible that Karma refuses to take our word on these matters. In this eventuality, the number of violators *they* would perceive would be much, much higher, once again jacking up the percentage.

We are also assuming that all non-violating nations in peace mode (i.e. all nations that are in peace but have fought a war in the past week and so on) will exit peace mode when ordered. There will undoubtedly be less than a 100% compliance rate among this number due to inactivity or possible insubordination.

Therefore, the demand that 90% of our nations leave peace mode is not even possible to comply with. Even the most ideal conditions do not make this particular term viable, making the terms as a whole unacceptable. The New Pacific Order cannot bind itself to an agreement it knows it very well cannot carry through with.

Edited June 13, 2009 by noob5

[Ogaden]

Holding a man at gun point and telling him to commit suicide is still murder.

Well, to those of us who have any moral fiber.

You realize that you are accusing your own alliance's leader of killing and alliance, then?

[Nintenderek]

Heh, I see what you did thar!

Nice try, but anyone watching the DoWs know that what you have just stated does not even qualify as spin as there is absolutely no truth to that

There are currently 731 NPO nations, not counting any nations you have hiding under different AAs (which I know you guys do, because I caught them once in a mass messaging campaign back in Vox) which means there are about 5000 NPO war slots total (No, I didn't actually do any math, that's a guess), or something around there.

There are currently 2,369 NPO wars. That's around 52 percent (I hope this doesn't make me look really bad at math) of the NPO war slots being used. That doesn't even tell us how many NPO nations are actually at war, as they can be at war with multiple nations. I doubt it's even a quarter of your alliance to be honest.

[Krack]

Lots of words and analysis (and excellent use of formatting)

Wow, sounds like you guys are screwed. You better hurry up and accept the terms before they get worse.

[Ramirus Maximus]

Total Money: $1,113,857,551

Total Money: $1,267,529,738

Total Money: $1,699,932,018

Total Money: $1,136,036,247

Total Money: $1,711,792,074

Total Money: $1,421,839,591

Total Money: $1,244,063,943

Total Money: $1,938,438,773

Total Money: $1,043,641,046

Total Money: $1,930,090,228

Total Money: $1,194,043,392

Total Money: $2,328,024,511

Total Money: $1,171,050,808

Total Money: $1,176,646,437

Total Money: $1,308,527,513

Total Money: $1,267,529,738

Total Money: $1,100,891,822

Total Money: $1,346,086,976

. Clearly the NPO can't afford to pay off reps. [/sarcasm]

Nevermind...just got to this post, heh.

[Alterego]

Im not surprised to find that karma are as low and evil as these terms show them to be, karma alliances will fight wars at some point in the future and as they themselves have said you are now judged on all past actions when you surrender and reps are given.

[Mathlete]

You realize that you are accusing your own alliance's leader of killing and alliance, then?

And I love him for it .

Edited June 13, 2009 by Mathlete

[Daimos]

Karma had a golden opportunity to show the CN community how to win gracefully. To change the mindset of the big bad wolf (the NPO). Can you imagine if after all the carnage of this war Karma gave the NPO white peace? It would have been a huge PR victory for Karma.

How can the NPO seek revenge to a merciful opponent? To do so will be a public relation suicide. Not only will the CN universe rise up against the NPO but I am willing to bet most members of the NPO will not allow it to happen. There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

But alas, this did not happen. I see now that the leaders of Karma are just like any other alliances that seek to quench their thirst for blood. Maybe there are some in Karma who envision what I mentioned above but their voices were muted by the majority.

This war will not change anything. This war will foster hatred and vengeance. Ruled by pride and arrogance from both sides. The losers of this war will never forget how they suffered. They will seek vengeance. It might or might not be with their current alliance but make no mistake wherever they end up. They will be a voice that will seek the destruction of the opponents that made them suffer.

Hence, the cycle continues.

"I'll rest when I die"

[Ogaden]

I want to elaborate on a claim that fellow Officer Cortath said here, namely that meeting that 90% requirement of Karma is unreasonable.

As reference, here is the term in question below:

An analysis of Term #1:

Based on tally done after the 6/10 update, we had 148 nations flying the New Pacific Order Alliance Affiliation that met the following conditions:

1. Nation was in peace mode.

2. Nation had no wars that expired 1 cycle ago according to the "Search Wars" tab. (i.e. no wars 7 days or earlier)

3. Nation had a flat or positive nation strength trend since mid May.

After doing some background checks, we found that 22 of those nations were in fact ghosts flying the AA without actual membership, with membership being determined by a matching nation link in our forum's member nation roster.

Additionally, a sizable chunk of 36-56 of those nations were banks. (exact number omitted for security reasons)

Thus, we found 70-90 so-called "peace mode violators" who refused to leave peace mode despite repeated orders to fight.

The quoted text indicates that 90% or more of NPO nations must exit peace mode for two weeks for this conflict to end. If this term is accepted, it is reasonable to think that the aforementioned peace mode violators will not exit to receive their mandated punishment. Having been told repeatedly to fight over the course of this extended war, there is no reason to believe that they would leave when ordered again.

The number of peace mode violators significantly crosses or runs very closely to the specified threshold dictated by the Karma coalition. (We currently have 731 nations flying our AA, a number which will likely decrease over time, increasing the percentage.) The degree of variance introduced by the estimated number of banks is almost irrelevant, as we skirt dangerously close to 10% in even the most "optimistic" of scenarios. Remember, by assuming we have less banks, you assume that the payment of reparations will be harder too.

From here, one can see that this term is nigh impossible.

And this is even working under the assumption that Karma accepts that 22 of our violators are ghosts, and accepts that a decent portion of these peace mode nations are banks. It is very possible that Karma refuses to take our word on these matters. In this eventuality, the number of violators *they* would perceive would be much, much higher, once again jacking up the percentage.

We are also assuming that all non-violating nations in peace mode (i.e. all nations that are in peace but have fought a war in the past week and so on) will exit peace mode when ordered. There will undoubtedly be less than a 100% compliance rate among this number due to inactivity or possible insubordination.

Therefore, the demand that 90% of our nations leave peace mode is not even possible to comply with. Even the most ideal conditions do not make this particular term viable, making the terms as a whole unacceptable. The New Pacific Order cannot bind itself to an agreement it knows it very well cannot carry through with.

This is precisely the issue. We have to rely solely on the good faith of alliances such as Vanguard and Athens, who have shown us only bad faith and "gotcha" games.

[Nintenderek]

You realize that you are accusing your own alliance's leader of killing and alliance, then?

Read up on your alliance's history. They've killed more alliances than any other alliance in history.

[Ogaden]

And I love him for it .

Well, Electron Sponge has defended against accusations that he did quite vigorously and has denied such a thing ever having taken place.

I'm glad you are more honest than he.

[Blacky]

To those who offered the terms I believe you have made a mistake.

I have no sympathy for the New Pacific Order, but it is in offering terms which are unreasonably harsh (which this is not as NPO's crimes are many and span for many years) but in this case unfeasible is the cause of negative karma.

These are draconian terms in that they are both near impossible to pay and are humiliating.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Blacky

[KingEsus]

"We will not impose draconian peace terms"

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54890

Disgusting. A sad indictment of the nature of those who play this game. The minute you can, you do.

[Nintenderek]

There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

Didn't seem to happen in GW2. Not going to happen next time either. NPO has proven in the past that white peace doesn't work for them.

[Beauty]

731 Divided by 114 = 6.41

300,000 Divided by 6.41 = 47,000 Tech

8,000,000,000 Divided by 6.4 = 1.2 Billion Dollars

How would Athens Feel?

[Ogaden]

Read up on your alliance's history. They've killed more alliances than any other alliance in history.

Prove it.

[bbrownso]

Holding a man at gun point and telling him to commit suicide is still murder.

Well, to those of us who have any moral fiber.

Wow, nice reference to my moral fiber. Also, I'm pretty sure a good lawyer could plea the situation down to a manslaughter charge in Beach Land., but I'll have to look into that.

So you argue that NPO forced them to disband and then attacked them? Well that certainly wasn't obvious from the post that I responded too and further, I have no proof that was the case. Sorry if I don't take your word for it; the truth is slippery these days. People act like any alliance NPO hit was a purely innocent "victim, " and that there was no justification what so ever. That I know is subjective reasoning and omission of facts so I can't take your word for it without proof.

Back on topic, what do you think of these terms? Would Karma accept higher reps without conditions or is it content to bat NPO, et. al around like a sadistic cat for awhile longer?

[Roadie]

Read up on your alliance's history. They've killed more alliances than any other alliance in history.

Not according to Sponge. According to him an alliance disbanding is the fault of the disbanded themselves.

Hence, NPO isn't to blame for any disbandments.

[Matthew Conrad]

How can the NPO seek revenge to a merciful opponent? To do so will be a public relation suicide. Not only will the CN universe rise up against the NPO but I am willing to bet most members of the NPO will not allow it to happen. There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

Kind sir let me present you with this wealth of knowledge.

http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Great_War_1

Enjoy

[kotic]

Why they did not take that counter-offer, I could not tell you

simple answer. we're KARMA. the idea is to make NPO PAY for its transgressions now and its Past ones as well. and dont act like NPO has never done anything wrong. even saying "NPO has done bad things" is a complete understatement. we are not as bad as NPO. we are giving the NPO what hey deserve. what has been coming to them for god knows how long. the terms are terms. maybe they will change and Karma will show mercy or maybe not. to be it does not matter. as Long as the alliance is ACTUALLY crippled i as happy as a fatboy eating cake.

everyone needs to understand that the terms,yes extreamly bold,are technically resonable tarms.Think of every alliance that has ever gone to war with NPO and then take a look at the terms NPO has given thous alliances.HELL NPO made my old alliance pay 9mill(it was a smalll alliance) b.c THEIR member attacked us and our guy attacked back. why is NPO crying now that its the little kid in the park getting picked on by the older kids?

[Nintenderek]

Prove it.

It's !@#$@#$ history. There's nothing to prove, it's just how it is.

Not according to Sponge. According to him an alliance disbanding is the fault of the disbanded themselves.

Hence, NPO isn't to blame for any disbandments.

Then you guys shouldn't mind more war, or the possible disbandment that could happen from it, since you guys didn't choose to accept these terms.

[Blacky]

How would Athens Feel?

You're comparing Athens to the New Pacific Order? The self-proclaimed bully alliance?

Come now. That's ridiculous.

My issue with these terms is that they're being asked to JUMP and SIT DOWN at the same time. It's impossible.

[Zeta Defender]

Read up on your alliance's history. They've killed more alliances than any other alliance in history.

Last post for now, party time. You can not kill something, it is a choice. We can attack, they can disband or fight or something else but it is a choice. How can you kill something which has no life except for the heart that the members give to it.