Imperial Decree from the New Pacific Order

[Thierra]

Wow. Pacifica finally found someone with less of a soul than they.

That's just embarrassing, Karma. Simply embarrassing.

[bbrownso]

To those who offered the terms I believe you have made a mistake.

I have no sympathy for the New Pacific Order, but it is in offering terms which are unreasonably harsh (which this is not as NPO's crimes are many and span for many years) but in this case unfeasible is the cause of negative karma.

These are draconian terms in that they are both near impossible to pay and are humiliating.

Wow, Karma you gotta know you messed up when even Blacky is saying, "This is going a little too far." I never thought I'd actually see this day considering I don't think I've EVER seen blacky side with NPO (at least not that I can recall in the past year).

[uaciaut]

Just give them easy peace and re-dow a month later for any random number of individual strays.

Hmmm this sounds familiar.

[Hiro Nakara]

Karma had a golden opportunity to show the CN community how to win gracefully. To change the mindset of the big bad wolf (the NPO). Can you imagine if after all the carnage of this war Karma gave the NPO white peace? It would have been a huge PR victory for Karma.

How can the NPO seek revenge to a merciful opponent? To do so will be a public relation suicide. Not only will the CN universe rise up against the NPO but I am willing to bet most members of the NPO will not allow it to happen. There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

But alas, this did not happen. I see now that the leaders of Karma are just like any other alliances that seek to quench their thirst for blood. Maybe there are some in Karma who envision what I mentioned above but their voices were muted by the majority.

This war will not change anything. This war will foster hatred and vengeance. Ruled by pride and arrogance from both sides. The losers of this war will never forget how they suffered. They will seek vengeance. It might or might not be with their current alliance but make no mistake wherever they end up. They will be a voice that will seek the destruction of the opponents that made them suffer.

Hence, the cycle continues.

"I'll rest when I die"

You missunderstand the nature of the beast there track record speaks volumes to what they will do if given white peace.

[Ramirus Maximus]

You keep repeating this, have you appointed yourself as the leader or sole voice in Karma?

He hasn't, nor does he need to. I'm not even on the NPO front and I can tell you he's right.

[Nintenderek]

Last post for now, party time. You can not kill something, it is a choice. We can attack, they can disband or fight or something else but it is a choice. How can you kill something which has no life except for the heart that the members give to it.

Tell that to this young Pacifican, not me.

You realize that you are accusing your own alliance's leader of killing and alliance, then?

[Angrator]

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=54890

Disgusting. A sad indictment of the nature of those who play this game. The minute you can, you do.

Did you read his followup post? I know you did, but I'll post it again anyway. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=58721

Do you really want to have this discussion? If you want to talk about double talk we can have it. But, do you think this is an argument you can win?

[Denniswerf]

How can the NPO seek revenge to a merciful opponent? To do so will be a public relation suicide

Since when does NPO care about their PR?

[Beauty]

You're comparing Athens to the New Pacific Order? The self-proclaimed bully alliance?

Come now. That's ridiculous.

My issue with these terms is that they're being asked to JUMP and SIT DOWN at the same time. It's impossible.

No im proportionally measuring the claims

Im still waiting for someone to answer my question, How would Athens feel if they had to pay that?

[Strykewolf]

I want to elaborate on a claim that fellow Officer Cortath said here, namely that meeting that 90% requirement of Karma is unreasonable.

As reference, here is the term in question below:

An analysis of Term #1:

Based on tally done after the 6/10 update, we had 148 nations flying the New Pacific Order Alliance Affiliation that met the following conditions:

1. Nation was in peace mode.

2. Nation had no wars that expired 1 cycle ago according to the "Search Wars" tab. (i.e. no wars 7 days or earlier)

3. Nation had a flat or positive nation strength trend since mid May.

After doing some background checks, we found that 22 of those nations were in fact ghosts flying the AA without actual membership, with membership being determined by a matching nation link in our forum's member nation roster.

Additionally, a sizable chunk of 36-56 of those nations were banks. (exact number omitted for security reasons)

Thus, we found 70-90 so-called "peace mode violators" who refused to leave peace mode despite repeated orders to fight.

The quoted text indicates that 90% or more of NPO nations must exit peace mode for two weeks for this conflict to end. If this term is accepted, it is reasonable to think that the aforementioned peace mode violators will not exit to receive their mandated punishment. Having been told repeatedly to fight over the course of this extended war, there is no reason to believe that they would leave when ordered again.

The number of peace mode violators significantly crosses or runs very closely to the specified threshold dictated by the Karma coalition. (We currently have 731 nations flying our AA, a number which will likely decrease over time, increasing the percentage.) The degree of variance introduced by the estimated number of banks is almost irrelevant, as we skirt dangerously close to 10% in even the most "optimistic" of scenarios. Remember, by assuming we have less banks, you assume that the payment of reparations will be harder too.

From here, one can see that this term is nigh impossible.

And this is even working under the assumption that Karma accepts that 22 of our violators are ghosts, and accepts that a decent portion of these peace mode nations are banks. It is very possible that Karma refuses to take our word on these matters. In this eventuality, the number of violators *they* would perceive would be much, much higher, once again jacking up the percentage.

We are also assuming that all non-violating nations in peace mode (i.e. all nations that are in peace but have fought a war in the past week and so on) will exit peace mode when ordered. There will undoubtedly be less than a 100% compliance rate among this number due to inactivity or possible insubordination.

Therefore, the demand that 90% of our nations leave peace mode is not even possible to comply with. Even the most ideal conditions do not make this particular term viable, making the terms as a whole unacceptable. The New Pacific Order cannot bind itself to an agreement it knows it very well cannot carry through with.

It's only impossible if you do not talk to the Karma alliances involved. Knowing some of the folks there, I'm fairly certain that they would work with you.

[o ya baby]

Just give them easy peace and re-dow a month later for any random number of individual strays.

Hmmm this sounds familiar.

Seems like the most logical plan

[Angrator]

Since when does NPO care about their PR?

Was it before or after they tried to kill the most tree hugging hippy friendly alliance ?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Angrator

[PrideAssassin]

Well-deserved numbers right there.

Let no one forget the crimes in Pacifica's past, nor the fact that it was once again unjustified Pacifican aggression that pushed the world into conflict.

Okay cool. But it's A-Okay to forget the crimes of others in the past.

Weak.

Try harder.

ZOMG! NPO played their politics well! CRIMINALZ!

Don't be jealous. You played yours well just recently, if memory serves.

This EZI crud people keep dragging up... Since I'm new, please document specific cases.

All I hear is EZI! EBILS!

Who? When? Details and photographic evidence, or it didn't happen.

The accusation alone doesn't hold water, in my eyes. These terms are beyond ridiculous and only serve to show how misguided this "Karma" joke really is.

o/ Pacifica!

Edited for unintentional OOC remark

Edited June 13, 2009 by PrideAssassin

[Nintenderek]

No im proportionally measuring the claims

Im still waiting for someone to answer my question, How would Athens feel if they had to pay that?

They already did have to pay a value which was proportionally higher then that (once again, not a math wizard) hence why they are making you pay it.

[muffasamini]

To those who offered the terms I believe you have made a mistake.

I have no sympathy for the New Pacific Order, but it is in offering terms which are unreasonably harsh (which this is not as NPO's crimes are many and span for many years) but in this case unfeasible is the cause of negative karma.

These are draconian terms in that they are both near impossible to pay and are humiliating.

Coming from someone that I believe is usually (and I believe still is) extremely anti-NPO, you post is very heartning. Ramirez keeps talking about us whining that we are "unable to afford terms." We have stated repeatedly that we have lost this war, and are willing to pay exorbitant penalties. However, this is not a matter of us rejecting harsh terms, these terms are physically not possible to be met. Not in their monitary volume (which we even offered to raise) but in their extra side clauses, that really? Where they that important? Karma was about to get peace and a MASSIVE volume of tech and money. And to snub it because they felt that absolutely ridiculous and impossible side clauses just couldnt be whiped.

They already did have to pay a value which was proportionally higher then that (once again, not a math wizard) hence why they are making you pay it.

And we were more than willing to pay it, or even higher. The extra side clauses are simply impossible

Edited June 13, 2009 by muffasamini

[Ragashingo]

Karma had a golden opportunity to show the CN community how to win gracefully. To change the mindset of the big bad wolf (the NPO). Can you imagine if after all the carnage of this war Karma gave the NPO white peace? It would have been a huge PR victory for Karma.

How can the NPO seek revenge to a merciful opponent? To do so will be a public relation suicide. Not only will the CN universe rise up against the NPO but I am willing to bet most members of the NPO will not allow it to happen. There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

Hence, the cycle continues.

I see you missed the first Great War. Go read up on your history. Please.

[edit]Oh I was so horribly late posting that... Oh well [/edit]

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ragashingo

[Qaianna]

Thats a cop-out and you know it. It is ridiculous to say that simply because I am a smaller nation, I wasnt complicit in the NPO's "crimes" and have just been "brainwashed" into following. You did that because you know only the lower nations can afford to buy that much tech. Tech for nations over 100 is ridiculously expensive, and our entire technology system relies on small nation procurers.

Furthermore, you are fully aware that a large number of the formerly huge and therefore "complicit" nations have been knocked down to -2,000 infra, and almost no tech, as they had to shed it to lower their NS in line with their infra.

I've never been a tech-heavy nation, but ... um, being infra-heavy in a war isn't all that much fun. Although I can believe if tech ends up disappearing in a mushroom cloud. And given that my formerly 18kns nation found itself in nuke range, I don't quite see the beat up nations staying out of nuke range either.

As of 2:47, 69 nations of the Order are above 4,000 infrastructure. I'll throw in #70; I called myself a 4k infra nation when I was at 3,999.99. That's seven spots they have to work with regarding the 90% issue. One's in war mode, and assuming trends go as they are, will be losing infrastructure. Sadly, given how prior campaigns regarding infiltrating alliances have gone, I can't see how the 90% mark would be really feasible. I am, of course, assuming everyone there actually is a fully-paid up Pacifican. We've seen at least one alliance resort to ghost infiltration to accomplish their ends, and admit to it. Whether they make their membership lists public is not my knowledge, but folks called shenanigans on the Order's declaration on the Federation of Armed Nations for a technicality, and some seem to like the idea of finding a way to do that here.

Odd way for some karma to strike, isn't it?

And Londo ... ouch. Sorry to see you stuck in that position. (Tho I didn't see any disrespect aimed at him in the original post.)

[Deadshot]

The amount of spin in this thread is bordering on ridiculous. I have always disagreed with Pacifica's decision to go to war in the way that they did, but I also believe the reasoning for war was just. As so many people on Karma side have stated, a Cb really doesn't matter, any alliance can war with any other alliance at any time they so choose. Though had Pacifica waited and let the rabid dogs in Karma strike first, we would be seeing a different end I'm sure.

NPO deserves to pay reps. Hell, they aren't even denying that. But the stubbornness they have encountered after counter offering with more than adequate reparations is frankly !@#$%^&*.

No doubt many of you want revenge, many of you are will always think Pacifica hasn't paid enough for their past crimes. And that is completely understandable. Some of you have always been honest, that this was merely to cripple NPO and destroy them. But there are some that have always worn the veil of deception, claiming to bring about a new era on Bob, putting an end to harsh terms, etc. It is you that will eventually feel the wrath turn back on you. You claim this is debt being repaid. Which is true, i concede. But it will also be brought back to you.

How many times have alliances on Karma side complained about the insensitive treatment of those at war with Pacifica, about them not listening to you, mocking you in their threads? You think things will change if you treat them the same way?

It is clear beyond the facade and with plenty of retarded threads all over this forum that the majority of those fighting NPO was their complete and utter destruction. Slowly the public is turning their opinions around on you and your time will come. Hell, everyone can see the next big war already being planted. NPO rejected terms placed to destroy them. It is completely clear that those terms are meant to be unattainable, and yes this is coming from someone who was extremely pissed at them for this war starting like it did.

Let this serve as a disclaimer that I dont hate anyone on Karma's side. I hold no grudges, and really couldn't care less about Karma anymore. You guys did your job, now you're pissing on the change you supposedly wanted to bring. I seriously think you should stop trying to be hard asses, and accept the counter offer that they laid out. It's still an extremely high number of tech and money.

Good luck to Karma, not as an entity, but the individual alliances that they don't somehow breed resentment and ruin this perfect plan that was concocted. And good luck to Pacifica. I truly hope you all see peace, that you get terms that are payable and can rebuild with a new outlook like many of us have.

o/ Pacifica

o/ Karma

and with this I am out of this thread. I don't wish to debate semantics with anyone, and quite frankly, I look forward to a different future instead of alliances on both sides boohooing about !@#$ that happened years ago.

/those whose alliances that were given terms that assisted their disbandment: I do understand you. You are the ones with the right to be upset.

Also, TPF. Baddest bunch of awesome this side of Bob. o/

Edited June 13, 2009 by Wentworth the Brave

[bbrownso]

simple answer. we're KARMA. the idea is to make NPO PAY for its transgressions now and its Past ones as well. and dont act like NPO has never done anything wrong. even saying "NPO has done bad things" is a complete understatement. we are not as bad as NPO. we are giving the NPO what hey deserve. what has been coming to them for god knows how long. the terms are terms. maybe they will change and Karma will show mercy or maybe not. to be it does not matter. as Long as the alliance is ACTUALLY crippled i as happy as a fatboy eating cake.

everyone needs to understand that the terms,yes extreamly bold,are technically resonable tarms.Think of every alliance that has ever gone to war with NPO and then take a look at the terms NPO has given thous alliances.HELL NPO made my old alliance pay 9mill(it was a smalll alliance) b.c THEIR member attacked us and our guy attacked back. why is NPO crying now that its the little kid in the park getting picked on by the older kids?

I hope you realize that Karma (as practiced here) is seemingly subjective to the views of those self-proclaimed to be acting on behalf of karma. Given the obvious upping of reps that has taken place, wouldn't it likewise seem obvious that this will just be another step in progressing exorbitant reps demand? Wouldn't it further put you off to think that you and your alliance could eventually face the karma it acquired through its actions and that they will have to pay more because of these reps?

If I had a say, I would have gone with smaller reps and tried to play up the PR, which, while allowing the NPO to rebuild quicker, would have made it more politically unfeasible for NPO to attack in the long run due to public opinion potentially starting another coalition against the NPO's aggression.

[Cataduanes]

I see you missed the first Great War. Go read up on your history. Please.

^ oh so this, i also lol'ed at the assertion that NPO could never attack a merciful enemy

Edited June 13, 2009 by Cataduanes

[Ramirus Maximus]

And I would rather delete than give you the satisfaction.

Anyone have a quick number handy of how many nations NPO forced to delete?

[Daimos]

QUOTE (Daimos @ Jun 13 2009, 12:47 AM) *

There would have been a coup or a mass exodus of people leaving the NPO if they went to war on an alliance that gave them white peace (showed mercy).

Didn't seem to happen in GW2. Not going to happen next time either. NPO has proven in the past that white peace doesn't work for them.

I am a loyal member of the NPO. Will and have sacrifice my nation for the alliance but if the NPO attacked a nation that gave them white peace, I would be fighting beside that merciful alliance.

I am willing to bet most of the so called "brainwash members" of the NPO have the same morality.

[Roadie]

It's !@#$@#$ history. There's nothing to prove, it's just how it is.

Then you guys shouldn't mind more war, or the possible disbandment that could happen from it, since you guys didn't choose to accept these terms.

Us guys haven't gotten any terms to accept or not.

[Sulmar]

It's only impossible if you do not talk to the Karma alliances involved. Knowing some of the folks there, I'm fairly certain that they would work with you.

Really? Cause judging by this thread they aren't that willing to work with them to attempt any kind of negotiations, they are just demanding their terms without compromise. If I was the NPO I wouldn't be betting getting any help from them.

[Mathlete]

Wow, nice reference to my moral fiber. Also, I'm pretty sure a good lawyer could plea the situation down to a manslaughter charge in Beach Land., but I'll have to look into that.

So you argue that NPO forced them to disband and then attacked them? Well that certainly wasn't obvious from the post that I responded too and further, I have no proof that was the case. Sorry if I don't take your word for it; the truth is slippery these days. People act like any alliance NPO hit was a purely innocent "victim, " and that there was no justification what so ever. That I know is subjective reasoning and omission of facts so I can't take your word for it without proof.

Back on topic, what do you think of these terms? Would Karma accept higher reps without conditions or is it content to bat NPO, et. al around like a sadistic cat for awhile longer?

Sorry if it sounded like a personal attack, I was referencing how the game was played prior to the Karma wars, so I do sincerely apologize. Unfortunately, it's 3 AM here, and I'm only human. And you don't have to believe anything I say,

As for the Sponge comment, I hardly even know him, and I certainly can't speak for him. If he says he didn't, then I trust his words and can say he did not.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Mathlete