A Recognition of Hostility

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Azaghul' timestamp='1295339261' post='2580893']
20:33 Chancy I should spy on MHA
20:33 Chancy Just to make them mad
20:33 Dajobo|NpO| [b]nah they aren't the enemy[/b]
20:34 Dajobo|NpO| pick domeone worth spying on
20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| anything that happens will come through them first
[/quote]

Still don't see where he told Lennox to spy on VE for him. The candidness of his comment about enemies and spying is further evidence that Dajobo was not taking Lennox seriously.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Tygaland

[Necromancer V4L]

[quote name='Muddog' timestamp='1295336585' post='2580765']
Best of luck to both PB and Polaris in this conflict, regardless of who is wrong or right. This situation will ultimately be written by the winner.
[/quote]

Actually, the situation in CN is almost always written from the perspective of the loser. Look at the majority opinion of every Great War, and I bet you will find that most take the position that it was unjust or wrong. The only exception to this rule that I can think of would be Karma.

[cookavich]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339105' post='2580885']
And unlucky to not warn VE about said spy? Though at that point, I don't think it comes down to luck but personal choice.[/quote]Up until the 16th, the conversations between Dajobo and Lennox were fairly innocuous when viewed in the context of two friends shooting the breeze. If you had a friend, who had a propensity for gossiping a lot and generally making wild statements, who said something to the effect if "lol gonna spy on someone" would the white knight within rise up and cause you to sell put your friend when the only thing you have going for you is a conversation between two friends? I've had conversations like these, and I did no such thing because I took them at what I perceived to be face value.

Dajobo is one of the nicest and most well intentioned individuals I know in this game, and that is what I believe he did here.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295339473' post='2580901']
You keep using the word targets which no one, including Dajobo used. Lennox asked who was politically powerful at the moment and mentioned MHA. Dajobo said MK and VE were more politically powerful, that is it. What of what he said is incorrect? Where did he tell Lennox to join VE and send him info? Dajobo said he did not condone spying and wanted no part of it in the same conversation.



It was naive of Dajobo to have the discussion that he did in the current environment.That does not prove malice though. He assumed Lennox was talking !@#$ and now it has come back to bite him. As for the screenshot, he should have gone to VE immediately but again assumed Lennox was full of !@#$ and ignored it. He didn't ask about it, he didn't request more information. Some apy master.

You and your friends wanted a "CB" and Lennox gave you one while effecting revenge on Polar for whatever reason he has. Enjoy your war, you don't need to make !@#$ up to justify yourselves anymore, the war is on, the CB is now irrelevant.
[/quote]

[quote]
20:33 Dajobo|NpO| nah they aren't the enemy
20:34 Dajobo|NpO| [b]pick domeone worth spying on[/b]
20:35 Chancy Give me suggestions
20:36 Dajobo|NpO| [b]VE or MK are the two who are heavily involved in world politics[/b][/quote]

He asked first who the biggest alliance is, not who is the most politically powerful. Then he actively said pick someone worth spying on and gave two suggestions. If someone came to me talking about spying, I would not actively encourage him to "pick someone worth spying on" and then proceed to name 2 specific alliances. Maybe you would, but not I.

Regardless of him assuming Lennox was talking !@#$, he should not have done what he did. He even received a screenshot of VE information which should have immediately have been taken to VE, then again he didn't.

Edited January 18, 2011 by WarriorConcept

[Joseph Black]

[quote name='Necromancer V4L' timestamp='1295339773' post='2580909']
Actually, the situation in CN is almost always written from the perspective of the loser. Look at the majority opinion of every Great War, and I bet you will find that most take the position that it was unjust or wrong. The only exception to this rule that I can think of would be Karma.
[/quote]

Weird and unusual if true....

[Timeline]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295339229' post='2580891']
I've done a 12 hour turnaround before from a cold start. It is completely reasonable to imagine VE making a 20 hour turnaround.

Granted, I would have no trouble believing that VE had this planned for days, but saying a 20 hour turnaround isn't possible simply isn't true.

(Unless you are Sparta)
[/quote]

I never said it was not possible, we all know with the right people and the right timing that it is, but you really think that VE, iFOK and PC have that sort of skill ?, we are not talking just one alliance here, we are talking about three alliances.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295339901' post='2580915']
I never said it was not possible, we all know with the right people and the right timing that it is, but you really think that VE, iFOK and PC have that sort of skill ?, we are not talking just one alliance here, we are talking about three alliances.
[/quote]
PC, easily.

VE can probably get a decent turnout in 20 hours.

iFOK would be suspicious. How much did they contribute to the blitz?

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='cookavich' timestamp='1295339836' post='2580911']
Up until the 16th, the conversations between Dajobo and Lennox were fairly innocuous when viewed in the context of two friends shooting the breeze. If you had a friend, who had a propensity for gossiping a lot and generally making wild statements, who said something to the effect if "lol gonna spy on someone" would the white knight within rise up and cause you to sell put your friend when the only thing you have going for you is a conversation between two friends? I've had conversations like these, and I did no such thing because I took them at what I perceived to be face value.

Dajobo is one of the nicest and most well intentioned individuals I know in this game, and that is what I believe he did here.
[/quote]

I would not say "pick someone worth spying on" followed by the names of 2 alliances and saying they're the most important. Especially not if I was the #2 in a large alliance like NpO, least of all.

[Timeline]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339864' post='2580913']
He asked first who the biggest alliance is, not who is the most politically powerful. Then he actively said pick someone worth spying on and gave two suggestions. If someone came to me talking about spying, I would not actively encourage him to "pick someone worth spying on" and then proceed to name 2 specific alliances. Maybe you would, but not I.

Regardless of him assuming Lennox was talking !@#$, he should not have done what he did. He even received a screenshot of VE information which should have immediately have been taken to VE, then again he didn't.
[/quote]


Yeah OV ran to NPO when they got screen shots of NPO.

like it not this was a set up and they played NpO nothing more nothing less - I am just thinking how many alliances that so called supported Karma are going to attack VE

[Hyperion321]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295339229' post='2580891']
(Unless you are Sparta)
[/quote]
Well, you pretty much invented quick turn arounds in Karma, so if you would be so kind we would love lessons.

On topic, good hunting VE. This is about as clear-cut a CB as I've ever seen, and people using "you're hitting us too fast" as a counter argument only shows how awesome you are. If you can't handle the heat, get out of Imp's kitchen.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Hyperion321

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340037' post='2580922']
Yeah OV ran to NPO when they got screen shots of NPO.

like it not this was a set up and they played NpO nothing more nothing less - I am just thinking how many alliances that so called supported Karma are going to attack VE
[/quote]

This was a setup? So VE sent lennox to go to NpO and instructed him to say he's going to spy on MHA...then instructed NpO to say "pick someone worthwhile" and name VE there?

You're an idiot.

[Azaghul]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1295339762' post='2580908']
Still don't see where he told Lennox to spy on VE for him. The candidness of his comment about enemies and spying is further evidence that Dajobo was not taking Lennox seriously.
[/quote]
My point is that the distinction between MHA and MK or VE was not that MK or VE were "more connected" but that MHA wasn't "the enemy". MK/VE were chosen because we're the most heavily involved "enemy".

That's giving pretty clear direction.

How does calling us the "enemy" show that he wasn't taking Lennox seriously?

[mhawk]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339485' post='2580902']
Several alliances do actually. Regardless if I received a screenshot from a spy, I would immediately proceed to notify that alliance about it, not keep it to myself.
[/quote]
Man we could have used your support in karma

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339485' post='2580902']
Several alliances do actually. Regardless if I received a screenshot from a spy, I would immediately proceed to notify that alliance about it, not keep it to myself.
[/quote]

he did just that. the only thing you can claim he kept to himself is Lennox stating he had the intention to spy, though since Dajobo thought he was joking he did not. when Lennox did send an SS, he went to Impero as soon as possible (less than a day, which is usually quite reasonable since RL gets in the way sometimes such as Dajobo appearing to be at work).

[Necromancer V4L]

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1295340043' post='2580923']
You're quite wrong about that.

On topic, good hunting VE. This is about as clear-cut a CB as I've ever seen, and people using "you're hitting us too fast" as a counter argument only shows how awesome you are. If you can't handle the heat, get out of Imp's kitchen.
[/quote]

He might be. There were way too many Polar nations complaining about not getting hit yet. Going out on a limb and agreeing with you for a change, Hyp, you guys probably could have done a better job. Well, maybe.

You know the CB is a joke though, but I can understand your desire to back your quasi-allies. By the way, if you run into Impero, tell him that he's out of bread.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340037' post='2580922']
Yeah OV ran to NPO when they got screen shots of NPO.

like it not this was a set up and they played NpO nothing more nothing less - I am just thinking how many alliances that so called supported Karma are going to attack VE
[/quote]
Propaganda Protip for the Polar Side:

Want some good sig material? Go back to the Karma runup and find people's quotes about that little bit of fun and compare them to people's stances now. A lot of 180s ITT.

[Callebaut]

I'm not terribly concerned with the wording of the initial conversation with Dajobo and Lennox, as I could be willing to give Dajobo [i]considerable[/i] benefit of the doubt and say he did not, in reality expect actual spying to take place.

However, even if I were generous enough to dismiss a private query containing phrases like "you know what you're doing already" and saying that having Lennox report screenshots was "fair enough," I can't absolve Dajobo of guilt. In the second exchange, he receives actual information through illegitimate means, and goes to the extent of having Lennox rehost the images so they'll work. He thanks Lennox for the screenshots, and then discusses them.

Frankly, the act of saying "thank you" for received information indicates at least some amount of official, recognized encouragement of spying. I'd be interested if the logs between Lennox and Dajobo went any further, even if it was just idle talk. The longer they converse, the more implicated Dajobo becomes.

[Timeline]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295339952' post='2580919']
PC, easily.

VE can probably get a decent turnout in 20 hours.

iFOK would be suspicious. How much did they contribute to the blitz?
[/quote]

So let me see if I understand you here, within 20 hours you think VE, PC and iFOK (please take in to account this is when they was first meant to get the information of the spying) was able to set up targets, get nations online ready to attack, and attack within that time frame ?

That is very unlikely, unless PB think they can take on the world, and disregarded NpO treaties, you know full well that PB already have there treaty partners ready to come in. before the attack that is

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='WarriorConcept' timestamp='1295339864' post='2580913']
He asked first who the biggest alliance is, not who is the most politically powerful. Then he actively said pick someone worth spying on and gave two suggestions. If someone came to me talking about spying, I would not actively encourage him to "pick someone worth spying on" and then proceed to name 2 specific alliances. Maybe you would, but not I.

Regardless of him assuming Lennox was talking !@#$, he should not have done what he did. He even received a screenshot of VE information which should have immediately have been taken to VE, then again he didn't.
[/quote]

so a friend of yours comes to you and asks the same thing and you would immediately assume your friend is not joking around and turn them in? aiight. that says something good and bad about your character.

[rsoxbronco1]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340396' post='2580934']
So let me see if I understand you here, within 20 hours you think VE, PC and iFOK (please take in to account this is when they was first meant to get the information of the spying) was able to set up targets, get nations online ready to attack, and attack within that time frame ?

That is very unlikely, unless PB think they can take on the world, and disregarded NpO treaties, you know full well that PB already have there treaty partners ready to come in. before the attack that is
[/quote]
It is not hard to parse targets and just start hitting them.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340396' post='2580934']
So let me see if I understand you here, within 20 hours you think VE, PC and iFOK (please take in to account this is when they was first meant to get the information of the spying) was able to set up targets, get nations online ready to attack, and attack within that time frame ?

That is very unlikely, unless PB think they can take on the world, and disregarded NpO treaties, you know full well that PB already have there treaty partners ready to come in. before the attack that is
[/quote]
That really doesn't take as long as you think.

[Timeline]

[quote name='bigwoody' timestamp='1295340338' post='2580932']
Propaganda Protip for the Polar Side:

Want some good sig material? Go back to the Karma runup and find people's quotes about that little bit of fun and compare them to people's stances now. A lot of 180s ITT.
[/quote]

Bigwoody, If I recall TORN attacked OV, then withdraw after NPO pretty much turn their backs on you and tried to sell you out, you should know better then anyone might make right even after the "karma will change bob" its the same old same old just different alliances acting hard.

2 years ago BoB came to defend OV, now they attack NpO who only did what OV did.

[Zombie Glaucon]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340396' post='2580934']
So let me see if I understand you here, within 20 hours you think VE, PC and iFOK (please take in to account this is when they was first meant to get the information of the spying) was able to [b]set up targets[/b], get nations online ready to attack, and attack within that time frame ?
[/quote]

Feels like a job some kind of mechanical computing machine could perform.

[WarriorConcept]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295340282' post='2580930']
he did just that. the only thing you can claim he kept to himself is Lennox stating he had the intention to spy, though since Dajobo thought he was joking he did not. when Lennox did send an SS, he went to Impero as soon as possible (less than a day, which is usually quite reasonable since RL gets in the way sometimes such as Dajobo appearing to be at work).
[/quote]

I believe it was a full at least, regardless since you're on IRC and receive that it's not too much work to proceed to #ve and talk to someone as soon as you get that instead of actually comparing warchest sizes with that spy, is it?

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1295340424' post='2580938']
so a friend of yours comes to you and asks the same thing and you would immediately assume your friend is not joking around and turn them in? aiight. that says something good and bad about your character.
[/quote]

I would tell my friend not to spy because it's pointless and dumb, and have done so in the past.

[bigwoody]

[quote name='Timeline' timestamp='1295340582' post='2580943']
Bigwoody, If I recall TORN attacked OV, then withdraw after NPO pretty much turn their backs on you and tried to sell you out, you should know better then anyone might make right even after the "karma will change bob" its the same old same old just different alliances acting hard.

2 years ago BoB came to defend OV, now they attack NpO who only did what OV did.
[/quote]
I'm certainly not claiming that VE is some sort of crusader for justice. They're in it just for the cheap curbstomp.

Which, given that the recipient is Polar, is fine by me. The CB for this war could be Polar hoarding pastries for all I care.