A Statement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Diogenes]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289375015' post='2509169']
The thing that damaged the reputation of your alliance was your demand of 15M and 250T for a canceled trade. RV going public did not cause this situation. There would be no public furore if there were no demands. See how that works?
[/quote]

Neither would there be a public outcry -- not of this degree, at least -- if the NSO had taken steps to resolve this situation in private rather than to publicize it.

I'll readily admit that we initially asked too much of the NSO in this scenario and have done so multiple times already, but their response only served to worsen the problem and provide us with less of a reason to help them out, and that is something that's really not debatable.

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Dilber' timestamp='1289375293' post='2509178']
But...you see...NPO did worse! We aren't them. We are just!
[/quote]
Heh. "The NPO did bad things. We are MK. We did a bad thing. But because we are not NPO, the thing we did is doubleplusgood!"

[aineshane]

Gauntlets. e.t.c I MK

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Quiziotle' timestamp='1289375897' post='2509188']
Neither would there be a public outcry -- not of this degree, at least -- if the NSO had taken steps to resolve this situation in private rather than to publicize it.

I'll readily admit that we initially asked too much of the NSO in this scenario and have done so multiple times already, but their response only served to worsen the problem and provide us with less of a reason to help them out, and that is something that's really not debatable.
[/quote]
That's true, but that's not really an argument. There would be no situation to resolve if you guys had not fronted up with those demands.

And saying that you are justified in maintaining your demands because they took it public and pissed you off doesn't really hold up either. I'm sure you pissed them off by demanding 15M and 250T for a cancelled trade, so by that logic they should be completely justified in bringing it public and giving you a PR hit since the demands "only served to worsen the problem and provide (them) with less of a reason to help (you) out".

[Denial]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289374220' post='2509155']
<snip>
[/quote]
You should write novels or something. I would advise a great fiction, as you've demonstrated great capacity for making up stories.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289374224' post='2509156']
Except that it wasn't a smear campaign, you did request that NSO pay you a sum equivalent to 7.5 times the money you paid in the first place.
[/quote]
It is a smear campaign when it consists of hyperbole, misinformation and downright lies. Yes, we did make the initial demand of $15m and 250 tech, but no, that was not the final offer, and no, we were not looking for war. Yes, there was room for negotiation. A number of avenues were available to the New Sith Order, including going above the officials involved and appealing to the high government.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289374224' post='2509156']
Over an action that was taken by one nation, who, even if they were an NSO member at the time, was booted and free for you to attack at your leisure. And considering that no alliance has asked for 'reparations' from another alliance due to a nation skipping out on a paid-for trade circle before, I find your attempt to paint yourselves as the victim quite amusing.[/quote]
This simplifies the situation in a manner that excuses the behaviour of NSO. They were intransigent, difficult to work with, and were purposely negotiating in bad faith in an attempt to one-up us - which is always to their own detriment in the end, and is a proven pattern of behaviour - as Yev explained above, but we called them on it.

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289374224' post='2509156']
Demonstrating your resolve to continue on a ludicrous course isn't something laudable.[/quote]
If our actions were being applauded by you and your ilk, we'd be doing something wrong.

[Krack]

[quote name='Dilber' timestamp='1289375293' post='2509178']
But...you see...NPO did worse! We aren't them. We are just!
[/quote]

Rumor has it that after they claim this $15 million "our member welshed on a deal" tax, they are rolling all the neutral alliances next. Then every six months or so, when their membership starts to get bored and complain, they are going to pick a fight with a random alliance (who is busy minding its own business), intimidate everyone into dropping their treaties with them, annihilate them with a 10x larger coalition, extort lots of tech in reparations and then install a viceroy.

/Maybe not
//But it [i]sounds[/i] likely
///The fun part about a scenario like this is that every negative thing that could occur, NPO [u]actually did do worse[/u] at some point.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Krack

[Banksy]

[quote name='Lurunin' timestamp='1289369905' post='2509084']
you see, i came in bout 43 pages late on this thread, yet in the last one i did not come across anything of the sort....if you can link me to a few posts i'd be more than happy to retract my previous statement
[/quote]
Sorry, you honestly think those logs were the only form of communication between the NSO and MK, despite the numerous references to past conversations with Lint Wad and others? This has been covered so many times that you must either be feigning idiocy or you are incapable of basic reading comprehension, in which case linking you to posts seems rather futile.

[Krack]

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1289357088' post='2508880']
So, now that one person from this circle has stepped up and said they've never required any compensation, how about the others?
[/quote]

On behalf of Aloha, we're keeping it. Not because we need it or even because we want it, mostly because ...

1. It was NSO's fault in the first place, and they kind of suck anyway,
2. Rebel Virginia intentionally went about things the wrong way, and
3. HeroofTime55 spent 40 pages offering opinions that interest nobody and generally mucking up things so it was difficult to find the posts with actual merit.

However, in the interests of philanthropy, we will be donating the $15 million to an alliance of our choosing.

[b][color="#000080"]*opens the phone book ... looking ... looking*[/color][/b]

Alchemy, come on down! [url="http://www.cybernations.net/search_aid.asp?searchstring=Declaring_Alliance%2CReceiving_Alliance&search=aloha"]You're the winner of $15 million crisp new dongs[/url]. Thank NSO's inability to keep their membership list accurate.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Krack

[Archon]

I'm dyin, squirtle.

Anywho, just figured, given the public nature of this whole thing, that I'd let you fine chaps know I've been in touch with Heggo to work out a perfectly reasonable solution to the Heft issue. For the curious, apparently the nation in question found it *quite* amusing that rabo...ahh hell, I forget how to spell his name. Rabosomething came on the OWF and complained about being spied on and implied it was MK. That particular member decided if already guilty, why not commit the crime? (By the way, if you just thought to yourself "Ho-ho-holy **** that's dumb," I quite agree with you).

Needless to say, that particular member has been severely disciplined.

It was a pleasure feeding you folks some drama - always good to get a gauge on things, but I'm going to actually bow out of this. Sadly, I was otherwise preoccupied today and thus am not particularly inclined to follow up on some of the more amusing comments contained herein. As always, you're welcome to contact me in private about any concerns you might have.

Til then, toodles.

[ktarthan]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1289374220' post='2509155']
There was no potential,
[/quote]
Yes there was.

[quote]
RV was forced to give in after negotiations with two NSO representatives before him went nowhere.
[/quote]
No he wasn't.

[quote]
It was obvious MK had no intention of budging on their demands.
[/quote]
No it wasn't.

[quote]
And under the pressure of the threat of, oh surprise, yet another curbie, by one of the top alliances in the game politically and militarily, well, that left RV with little choice.
[/quote]
No it didn't.

[quote]
MK made the mistake of thinking NSO would just bend over.
[/quote]
No they didn't.

[quote]
NSO retaliated the only way they had available to them.
[/quote]
No they didn't. (Because it wasn't)

[quote]
NSO's actions were justified 150%
[/quote]
No they weren't.

[quote]
Archon came throwing a temper tantrum about how NSO had to be punished for daring to say dirty things about MK.
[/quote]
No he didn't.

[quote]
Which is why it boggles the mind that you can't just admit you are wrong to salvage what scarce little PR you have left.
[/quote]
No it doesn't.

[quote]
I'm going to bed.
[/quote]
Okay I'll give you that one.

Wow, it's like your an entire misinformation department in one person.

Edited November 10, 2010 by ktarthan

[Elorian]

[quote name='supercoolyellow' timestamp='1289365893' post='2509038']

However, there have been a good many NpO, Ronin and STA posters critical of MK the past few days. There have been less Athens, GR, FOB, NV, Genesis, Rok and GOD posters than I would have expected before the mass cancellation* as well. So while you're very definite exception, I think my point still stands that the blow back that MK is facing now is much stronger, and less argued against by non-MK members than we would have seen had they not cancelled their treaties.

[/quote]

As far as I am aware, Ronin is not and was never a drone under MK's control. That's why, I suspect, we are two different alliances. Some steps taken by us were criticized by the members of Mushroom Kingdom and vice versa. I see nothing wrong with having an opinion on matters. Just because we disagree does not mean we won't support each other though should push come to shove, treaty or not.

This is just one case of such a disagreement and I doubt it would break or seriously harm the completely paperless connection between Ronin and MK.

Disclaimer: While it is a bit off topic from the general statement at hand, I felt I needed to point the above out since we were mentioned among others.

Respectfully,

Elorian

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289376867' post='2509197']
It is a smear campaign when it consists of hyperbole, misinformation and downright lies. Yes, we did make the initial demand of $15m and 250 tech, but no, that was not the final offer, and no, we were not looking for war. Yes, there was room for negotiation. A number of avenues were available to the New Sith Order, including going above the officials involved and appealing to the high government.[/quote]
The implied threat of force was always there, most blatantly when it was stated:
<Yevgeni> Him or you. We consider NSO responsible as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
RV had stated that NSO was not protecting the nation and you were free to hit him, and your representatives then restated the earlier demand for 15M/250T. If NSO refused to pay, in what manner did you intend to hold them responsible if not war? And it's not the sum that was demanded that's the problem, so saying he could have negotiated doesn't mean anything, unless you were expecting him to negotiate you down to $0. It's not that you were asking for an exorbitant amount, but that you were asking for anything at all, beyond having the member released for attack, and possibly the return of the 3M if you were lucky. Though, the 3M would be a courtesy from NSO, considering they had nothing to do with the creation of the TC nor the nation canceling the trades.

[quote]This simplifies the situation in a manner that excuses the behaviour of NSO. They were intransigent, difficult to work with, and were purposely negotiating in bad faith in an attempt to one-up us - which is always to their own detriment in the end, and is a proven pattern of behaviour - as Yev explained above, but we called them on it.[/quote]
It doesn't simplify anything. Is it not a fact that in the discussion with RV he explicitly said that NSO would not protect the nation in question? You should have attacked the nation, and that should have been the end of it. Stating that you will continue to seek the full 15M and 250T because they were not immediately acquiescent during the negotiations where you demanded that sum is pretty ridiculous. If you approached me with those demands over a canceled trade I'd be understandably annoyed in the negotiations too.

[quote]If our actions were being applauded by you and your ilk, we'd be doing something wrong.
[/quote]
No u?

But really, that wasn't what I was saying, and you know it. [OOC]My point was that Napoleon had plenty of resolve in invading Russia. Hitler had resolve right up until he shot himself (damn you Godwin).[/OOC] I could have resolve to continually punch myself in the face, that doesn't make it a good idea.

Edited November 10, 2010 by WorldConqueror

[mdnss69]

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1289283280' post='2507403']
Highway robbery, if you will.
[/quote]

Indeed. Quid pro quo seems to be in affect.

[Letum]

What I find interesting is the comments from MK suggesting that somehow it is only really a negotiation when the other side agrees to pay up.

Which really seems like a pretty big redefinition, especially when you take into account that the nation is not under any protection and they can just attack him or something if they are that mad about it. But I guess that is the good side of "having the upper hand" - you can decide what "negotiation" means to suit your own goals.

Maybe that's why they are so fixated on the possibility of a lower figure as some sort of sin-cleansing holy grail.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Letum

[rabonnobar]

[quote name='TheNeverender' timestamp='1289379871' post='2509213']
I'm dyin, squirtle.

Anywho, just figured, given the public nature of this whole thing, that I'd let you fine chaps know I've been in touch with Heggo to work out a perfectly reasonable solution to the Heft issue. For the curious, apparently the nation in question found it *quite* amusing that rabo...ahh hell, I forget how to spell his name. Rabosomething came on the OWF and complained about being spied on and implied it was MK. That particular member decided if already guilty, why not commit the crime? (By the way, if you just thought to yourself "Ho-ho-holy **** that's dumb," I quite agree with you).

Needless to say, that particular member has been severely disciplined.

It was a pleasure feeding you folks some drama - always good to get a gauge on things, but I'm going to actually bow out of this. Sadly, I was otherwise preoccupied today and thus am not particularly inclined to follow up on some of the more amusing comments contained herein. As always, you're welcome to contact me in private about any concerns you might have.

Til then, toodles.
[/quote]

You got four letters, I'm absolutely charmed.

Also, glad to hear the situation has been dealt with.

Edited November 10, 2010 by rabonnobar

[Charles Stuart]

[quote name='WorldConqueror' timestamp='1289376146' post='2509190']
Heh. "The NPO did bad things. We are MK. We did a bad thing. But because we are not NPO, the thing we did is doubleplusgood!"
[/quote]

You have obviously been reading the [i]Dummies guide to hating NPO[/i]

[Poyplemonkeys]

So we've got people on one side drowning in their tears as they cry "Bawwww MK was extortionate and bullied us into accepting these reparations" ignoring the fact that they weren't negotiated in good faith by NSO because there is a clear point in the logs where it clicked in RV's mind that taking the cash/tech hit would be great for hitting out MK's actions publicly and causing this backlash. To accept the figure with such an ulterior motive in mind is clearly not the whiter than white they are being portrayed as by some.

Similarly people on the other side shouting "NSO only accepted our demands because they wanted to make us look bad!" ignoring the fact that you can't possibly be negotiating in good faith when you start demanding reparations where none are due in the first place, ignore all attempts to explain that this person wasn't a member at the point of transgression, and after that ignoring that the original contract was with the nation and not NSO, the nation committed a rogue action not sanctioned by NSO's government to break the contract, and so only the nation should ever have been held responsible once NSO had removed him from the alliance. You can talk about highballing all you want but it's not quite the same when any reparations at all above the original debt would be considered out of line by most.

I feel like Moses, the only people staying dry in this are those that walk down the middle.

[Letum]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1289382565' post='2509226']
So we've got people on one side drowning in their tears as they cry "Bawwww MK was extortionate and bullied us into accepting these reparations" ignoring the fact that they weren't negotiated in good faith by NSO because there is a clear point in the logs where it clicked in RV's mind that taking the cash/tech hit would be great for hitting out MK's actions publicly and causing this backlash. To accept the figure with such an ulterior motive in mind is clearly not the whiter than white they are being portrayed as by some.
[/quote]

You have of course, every right to make inferences about what you think RV's motives are, but in the absence of remote mind reading powers, you cannot credibly call your assumption of an ulterior motive a "fact".

[Poyplemonkeys]

I'm fairly sure it's something RV admitted in the other discussion on it, he at least alluded to knowing he was going to release full unedited logs to the masses. I can't actually bring myself to delve into that thread again after reading it once to find the exact quotations but I'm comfortable in my assertions unless RV says I'm mistaken.

[raasaa]

Well, frankly, if it was me, i would have been pissed at MK for trying to get a member of my alliance to change colors. I remember bilrow doing that to me once, when i asked him to switch to the blue team and join a blue team trade circle

I guess we would have said: "you did it on your own without government authorization, hence that nation is your problem. We will expel him as an aid thief and you can do whatever the hell you want with him"

Extortion, log dump, whining, drivel and a few insightful remarks.......this thread is going nowhere :S

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1289383968' post='2509230']
I'm fairly sure it's something RV admitted in the other discussion on it, he at least alluded to knowing he was going to release full unedited logs to the masses. I can't actually bring myself to delve into that thread again after reading it once to find the exact quotations but I'm comfortable in my assertions unless RV says I'm mistaken.
[/quote]

If I remember right, he actually said that after the 'negotiations' had finished, when he went on a bit of a rant towards the end of those logs.

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1289384626' post='2509235']
I guess we would have said: "you did it on your own without government authorization, hence that nation is your problem. We will expel him as an aid thief and you can do whatever the hell you want with him" [/quote]

They did, that wasn't good enough.

[Lord Caparo]

In Short, Its Extortion.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Poyplemonkeys' timestamp='1289383968' post='2509230']
I'm fairly sure it's something RV admitted in the other discussion on it, he at least alluded to knowing he was going to release full unedited logs to the masses. I can't actually bring myself to delve into that thread again after reading it once to find the exact quotations but I'm comfortable in my assertions unless RV says I'm mistaken.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]My main motivation in accepting was not to get NSO rolled over something this stupid and petty. I posted logs because I have felt for years that when back channels are abused to this point, well, then those who abuse them should not get the luxury of privacy that comes with them. PR had nothing to do with this, regardless of what certain individuals say to the contrary.[/color]

[Floyd]

[quote name='Mayzie' timestamp='1289385886' post='2509242']
[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1289384626' post='2509235']
I guess we would have said: "you did it on your own without government authorization, hence that nation is your problem. We will expel him as an aid thief and you can do whatever the hell you want with him"
[/quote]
They did, that wasn't good enough.
[/quote]
Well isn't that cute, the thing is that through the three separate conversations with various people in the NSO organization is that the gentleman first was deemed to be a member(by a straight member/former emperor) then by a mid tier government member that he was in fact not a member and had never been a member it was just a coincidence that two fellows had the exact same name and such. Then the third conversation with RV finally stating that he was a member but had failed to check in so that he had been booted from the alliance just no one had ever bothered to demask him and ask him to leave the AA. So by no means was the gentlemen in question "expelled" for this asshatery but instead NSO finally pushed the paperwork through to demask him some what 4 months after being expelled. If anything consider the payment a consulting fee for helping get the NSO bureaucracy in order. Jeez try to do people some favors and they start slinging the feces around. My two cents from a perspective of a mindless Kingdom drone move along nothing to see here.

Yada Yada Yada anyway for the original offense I would agree with my King that it was originally too high but negotiation is a two way street, no decent representative will start with exactly what they want in what is a negotiation there would be no wiggle room, if one started at 3 million and negotiated down then it is a waste of an aid slot that could be better spent with accumulating tech or feeding the starving orphans of Floydian Land. So you start high in through the process reach a number that is satisfactory for both parties, what happened is that RV saw his chance to score a blow against the Kingdom and decided to pay the paltry sum to secure it. Lets face it 15 mil and 250 tech is pocket change in a propaganda war.

[Mayzie]

[quote name='Floyd' timestamp='1289389262' post='2509258']
Well isn't that cute, the thing is that through the three separate conversations with various people in the NSO organization is that the gentleman first was deemed to be a member(by a straight member/former emperor) then by a mid tier government member that he was in fact not a member and had never been a member it was just a coincidence that two fellows had the exact same name and such. Then the third conversation with RV finally stating that he was a member but had failed to check in so that he had been booted from the alliance just no one had ever bothered to demask him and ask him to leave the AA. So by no means was the gentlemen in question "expelled" for this asshatery but instead NSO finally pushed the paperwork through to demask him some what 4 months after being expelled. If anything consider the payment a consulting fee for helping get the NSO bureaucracy in order. Jeez try to do people some favors and they start slinging the feces around. My two cents from a perspective of a mindless Kingdom drone move along nothing to see here.

Yada Yada Yada anyway for the original offense I would agree with my King that it was originally too high but negotiation is a two way street, no decent representative will start with exactly what they want in what is a negotiation there would be no wiggle room, if one started at 3 million and negotiated down then it is a waste of an aid slot that could be better spent with accumulating tech or feeding the starving orphans of Floydian Land. So you start high in through the process reach a number that is satisfactory for both parties, what happened is that RV saw his chance to score a blow against the Kingdom and decided to pay the paltry sum to secure it. Lets face it 15 mil and 250 tech is pocket change in a propaganda war.
[/quote]

What's cute about it? Whether the nation [i]was[/i] a member is irrelevant.

<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but we won't be protecting him. He's on his own.

That's as far as it should have gotten, maybe an offer of 3m from NSO as a goodwill gesture but the conversation to to demands right after that line so it's no suprise that wasn't offered. The whole 'you start negotiations high' line doesn't fly when there shouldn't have been any monetary negotiations to be had to begin with.