A Statement from the Mushroom Kingdom

[Believland]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289429281' post='2509704']
Hey smart one, the point of this entire fiasco is that MK failed.

Instead of correcting the mistake of demanding such high reps, Archon comes in here and makes the mistake even worse by stating that the demands will stand and threatens war. If Archon was not threatening war then why the deadline?

You guys failed. You own this failure. Deal with it. Use this failure and learn from it or face the consequences if you continue to pull this down the road. Karma, you know that thing Archon is so famous for...MK isn't immune from facing the same wrath.
[/quote]

MK failed? How so?

I'm starting to wonder how many people in CN know how to negotiate. When this first situation came to light, I queried Yev to tell him he changed. I also told him that I would have laughed and gave you 3 mil for one person. He told me that I knew how to negotiate and didn't seem to have a problem with accepting that term. Now, this could all be that he didn't care, I'd like to believe he did however, he could have just been talking me along. Back to the point though, why get something for 3 mil that you could for 30 mil? I'm not one of those people but, if you can get it then more power to you.

Face the consequences? Come on now, son. I know you're not threatening MK over NSO's failures.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1289420217' post='2509563']
If I were you, I'd hire a good lawyer HoT. There are countless instances of trademark violations that you have committed and the penalties are no laughing matter. We'll try not to make our demands too high.
[/quote]

Not to mention it'll cost 15m/250tech, right?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1289430922' post='2509725']
Not to mention it'll cost 15m/250tech, right?
[/quote]
15m/250t is the new 90m

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289430239' post='2509716']
MK failed? How so?[/quote]
They failed to live up to the standards they fought so hard to achieve. They failed themselves. They failed our community of nations.

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289430239' post='2509716']
I'm starting to wonder how many people in CN know how to negotiate. When this first situation came to light, I queried Yev to tell him he changed. I also told him that I would have laughed and gave you 3 mil for one person. He told me that I knew how to negotiate and didn't seem to have a problem with accepting that term. Now, this could all be that he didn't care, I'd like to believe he did however, he could have just been talking me along. Back to the point though, why get something for 3 mil that you could for 30 mil? I'm not one of those people but, if you can get it then more power to you.[/quote]
I don't even know your history with MK. They wouldn't make this demand to say =LOST= or another alliance, only to NSO.
You spoke with them after this came to light. Of course they were going to play it cool and say that yeah they would have settled for a lower figure. If it was your alliance and you told MK that they could do as they wanted with the nation because you considered that nation a ghost or non-member and they came back at you and said no, you are responsible and demanded the same...you're telling me you would go to war with MK and refuse to pay? You would take the hints and figure war was the other option for not paying. So either you would do what NSO did or you would be at war. And I doubt your alliance would have kept matters private after a DoW on it. You guys would have spilled logs and stated the same things RV did about how you were approached and threatened. So please don't say NSO failed, they saw risk and Archon's belligerence in this thread confirmed it.

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289430239' post='2509716']
Face the consequences? Come on now, son. I know you're not threatening MK over NSO's failures.
[/quote]
Yes, I am.

[lebubu]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289431209' post='2509729']
Yes, I am.
[/quote]

Alright. What now?

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289430239' post='2509716']
MK failed? How so?

I'm starting to wonder how many people in CN know how to negotiate. When this first situation came to light, I queried Yev to tell him he changed. I also told him that I would have laughed and gave you 3 mil for one person. He told me that I knew how to negotiate and didn't seem to have a problem with accepting that term. Now, this could all be that he didn't care, I'd like to believe he did however, he could have just been talking me along. Back to the point though, why get something for 3 mil that you could for 30 mil? I'm not one of those people but, if you can get it then more power to you.

Face the consequences? Come on now, son. I know you're not threatening MK over NSO's failures.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Why not only ask for three million when you can instead try and shake much, much more through sheer intimidation because you simply can? Excuse me if I'm not going to play ball with people like this. If your intent from the beginning is to use your muscle to scare much more than you're actually due when you enter the discussion, you are not taking in good faith. And if that's your ballgame, well, then you've got no business accusing me of not negotiating in good faith.

And you know, I still fail to see the point in even negotiating at all for something as petty as a canceled trade. One canceled by a ghost more so. So what if we'd be paying three or six million left? That is nothing, and not worth the hours of my time that it'd take. Even more we'd still be paying at least something for which we shouldn't have been paying for anyway.

Now what is this about people not knowing how to negotiate? I can tell you with some certainty that I do know how, and when I enter into negotiations I am reasonable from the beginning. I do not make absurd demands, and I do not thump by chest. I do not try to pull whatever weight I may have simply to intimidate the weaker party when I have the upper hand. In short, when I enter a talk I do so with integrity and honesty. Quite a few people can vouch for this. I've pardoned a lot of rogues in my time, and let them off the hook with nothing. No reps, no time at ZI. Nothing. I could have gotten some money if I wanted, and I know I'd been entitled to it had I wanted, but I let them off. Why? Simply because I try to be a decent man at all times, but that's just me.

Yev and Pippy were unreasonable from the very beginning, and they had no interest in listening to our side of the story or accepting that Lord Revan was a ghost, and that he only had a mask due to an administrative oversight. I had to admit to that simply because that's what they wanted to hear, and I was in no position to deny them that. Not unless I wanted to see the NSO rolled for a stupid reason anyway.

So you know, you're technically right. I didn't bother negotiating in the traditional sense because even though I entered in good faith, Yev and Pippy did not. There is no reasoning with self righteous egos on a power trip who in their own minds believe they can do no wrong, and no matter what they do or ask for, now matter how vile or absurd, it will always be justified in some sick and twist way in their own mind. No, sir, you cannot reason with people like that.

So I took what I saw as a bargain. Fifteen million and some tech for the NSO's survival. They didn't deserve that, but if that was what it took to put the situation to rest, so be it. So I agreed, but I felt rubbish like this in the backrooms needed to be exposed. I have felt that way since my Vox days and before, and still do. Believe me when I say my involvement in the anti-NPO movement had nothing to do with PR. It didn't benefit me. It made me many powerful enemies, but at the end of day it was the right thing to do. I'm guided by conscience and a sense of moral principle. Not political power or opportunity.[/color]

[Fernando12]

[quote name='lebubu' timestamp='1289431450' post='2509734']
Alright. What now?
[/quote]
Took you Karma fellows 2-3 years to build up. So keep up your !@#$ and I will come calling in 2-3 years

[Joe Izuzu]

The bottom line is that MK screwed with NSO because they could. Is it possible that they had larger ulterior motives? Certainly it is possible, but I strongly doubt that is the case. I believe that they saw an opportunity to rub NSO's face in the dirt and had absolutely no expectation that anyone on their side of the web would care. They counted on the perception that nobody likes NSO except their treaty partners and were frankly taken aback by the massive bipartisan condemnation of their actions. Hence Archon's intervention as an attempt to sway public opinion back in their favor. The fact that his intervention failed and that the vast majority of the posters in this thread have condemned MK's extortion as just that has only spurred the MK posters and their sycophants to greater exhibition of their rather obvious efforts at spin control.

As to the assertions that MK didn't hold a gun to NSO's head, well, anyone with a shread of objectivity can see that the implication was that NSO would be rolled if they didn't accede to MK's demands.

You can try to spin it any way you like. It is even possible that a large number of gullible people will believe it, but it doesn't change the obvious fact that you are retroactively trying to justify an unjustifiable action that unexpectedly blew up in your faces.

[President Obama]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289431628' post='2509739']
Took you Karma fellows 2-3 years to build up. So keep up your !@#$ and I will come calling in 2-3 years
[/quote]
Now that Archon has fallen from his perch as the moral voice of the game, Fernando12 shall pick up his mantle of goodness and honor. This is a dramatic moment.

Good luck man, you're the new Archon now.

[Locke]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1289416267' post='2509517']
How was RV supposed to know that?
[/quote]
I dunno, I just kind of assumed that a MoFA couldn't unilaterally declare war, making any threat empty.

[Shodemofi-NPO]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1289432687' post='2509751']
I dunno, I just kind of assumed that a MoFA couldn't unilaterally declare war, making any threat empty.
[/quote]
Uh...what? Are you serious? Because a MoFA can't declare war, interactions with him have no bearing on whether a war happens? I'm going to hope your post was some kind of joke I didn't get.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1289432687' post='2509751']
I dunno, I just kind of assumed that a MoFA couldn't unilaterally declare war, making any threat empty.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]Depends on the alliance being threatened in all actuality. Perhaps Pippy couldn't have made threats against Polaris or Nordreich, but NSO has the misfortune of being nearly universally hated. Mostly our own fault, as I've said in the past, and not at all unwarranted, but it is a fair assessment of reality. If you have even a barely legitimate reason, or one that could even be portrayed as legitimate, you could easily muster a coalition. Pippy may not have been the one running the show, but he was high enough up there to be taken seriously. I'd have been stupid to assume that he didn't mean business.[/color]

[Locke]

[quote name='Shodemofi' timestamp='1289433077' post='2509759']
Uh...what? Are you serious? Because a MoFA can't declare war, interactions with him have no bearing on whether a war happens? I'm going to hope your post was some kind of joke I didn't get.
[/quote]
They do, but it'd only be safe to make such judgements after talking to the people who have that power. One person does not a war make, but if RV got the same lines from lebubu and Archon, then he'd have good reason to suspect MK might make good on any threats. He skipped that step.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Locke

[Locke]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289433229' post='2509764']
[color="#0000FF"]Depends on the alliance being threatened in all actuality. Perhaps Pippy couldn't have made threats against Polaris or Nordreich, but NSO has the misfortune of being nearly universally hated. Mostly our own fault, as I've said in the past, and not at all unwarranted, but it is a fair assessment of reality. If you have even a barely legitimate reason, or one that could even be portrayed as legitimate, you could easily muster a coalition. Pippy may not have been the one running the show, but he was high enough up there to be taken seriously. I'd have been stupid to assume that he didn't mean business.[/color]
[/quote]
Again, you're making assumptions about people you didnt talk to. If you'd talked to the real power at MK and got the same lines, then you could say they were gunning for you.

[Believland]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289431209' post='2509729']
I don't even know your history with MK. They wouldn't make this demand to say =LOST= or another alliance, only to NSO.
You spoke with them after this came to light. Of course they were going to play it cool and say that yeah they would have settled for a lower figure. If it was your alliance and you told MK that they could do as they wanted with the nation because you considered that nation a ghost or non-member and they came back at you and said no, you are responsible and demanded the same...you're telling me you would go to war with MK and refuse to pay? You would take the hints and figure war was the other option for not paying. So either you would do what NSO did or you would be at war. And I doubt your alliance would have kept matters private after a DoW on it. You guys would have spilled logs and stated the same things RV did about how you were approached and threatened. So please don't say NSO failed, they saw risk and Archon's belligerence in this thread confirmed it.
[/quote]
My relationship with MK has changed over the past 6 months as some more friends have joined them. That however doesn't matter. You're right, they wouldn't give these demands to their closest ally. Now, Yev is a very honest person and I don't think he'd try to play it off as if it was no big deal. That just doesn't fit his personality, he's actually very blunt. I would have told Yev that I'd pay the nation who lent the money and that would be it. No, I'd pay 3 million dongs to the person who lent the money to said ghost. I would see that I'd have to pay and would pay 3 mil. I would not refuse to pay. No, I don't think you're getting this. I would try to negotiate them down and pay the Aloha guy 3 million dongs. No, we would have said our side in an announcement. Yes, I would have said the same thing RV said if it came to war, which it wouldn't. The fact of the matter is, NSO did fail. Even RV acknowledged this, in the fact that they refused to negotiate. In fact that's part of a negotiation process, to negotiate.

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289431620' post='2509738']
[color="#0000ff"]Why not only ask for three million when you can instead try and shake much, much more through sheer intimidation because you simply can? Excuse me if I'm not going to play ball with people like this. If your intent from the beginning is to use your muscle to scare much more than you're actually due when you enter the discussion, you are not taking in good faith. And if that's your ballgame, well, then you've got no business accusing me of not negotiating in good faith.

And you know, I still fail to see the point in even negotiating at all for something as petty as a canceled trade. One canceled by a ghost more so. So what if we'd be paying three or six million left? That is nothing, and not worth the hours of my time that it'd take. Even more we'd still be paying at least something for which we shouldn't have been paying for anyway.

Now what is this about people not knowing how to negotiate? I can tell you with some certainty that I do know how, and when I enter into negotiations I am reasonable from the beginning. I do not make absurd demands, and I do not thump by chest. I do not try to pull whatever weight I may have simply to intimidate the weaker party when I have the upper hand. In short, when I enter a talk I do so with integrity and honesty. Quite a few people can vouch for this. I've pardoned a lot of rogues in my time, and let them off the hook with nothing. No reps, no time at ZI. Nothing. I could have gotten some money if I wanted, and I know I'd been entitled to it had I wanted, but I let them off. Why? Simply because I try to be a decent man at all times, but that's just me.

Yev and Pippy were unreasonable from the very beginning, and they had no interest in listening to our side of the story or accepting that Lord Revan was a ghost, and that he only had a mask due to an administrative oversight. I had to admit to that simply because that's what they wanted to hear, and I was in no position to deny them that. Not unless I wanted to see the NSO rolled for a stupid reason anyway.

So you know, you're technically right. I didn't bother negotiating in the traditional sense because even though I entered in good faith, Yev and Pippy did not. There is no reasoning with self righteous egos on a power trip who in their own minds believe they can do no wrong, and no matter what they do or ask for, now matter how vile or absurd, it will always be justified in some sick and twist way in their own mind. No, sir, you cannot reason with people like that.

So I took what I saw as a bargain. Fifteen million and some tech for the NSO's survival. They didn't deserve that, but if that was what it took to put the situation to rest, so be it. So I agreed, but I felt rubbish like this in the backrooms needed to be exposed. I have felt that way since my Vox days and before, and still do. Believe me when I say my involvement in the anti-NPO movement had nothing to do with PR. It didn't benefit me. It made me many powerful enemies, but at the end of day it was the right thing to do. I'm guided by conscience and a sense of moral principle. Not political power or opportunity.[/color]
[/quote]
I'm not happy about highballing either but, when life gives you lemons you make lemonade. What is the pain in saying 3 mil? Also, this really isn't about a canceled trade, it's more of the free aid given to a member/ghost/mistake who soon broke free of the Sith. Well, at least that's what I got out of it.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Believland

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='Locke' timestamp='1289433587' post='2509773']
Again, you're making assumptions about people you didnt talk to. If you'd talked to the real power at MK and got the same lines, then you could say they were gunning for you.
[/quote]


I've saw many many times in the past Archon himself say that he stands behind the words and actions of his ministers in dealing with FA.

He certainly stood behind them in this case, even though he admitted they were in the wrong.

[Rebel Virginia]

[quote name='Believland' timestamp='1289435376' post='2509792']
I'm not happy about highballing either but, when life gives you lemons you make lemonade. What is the pain in saying 3 mil? Also, this really isn't about a canceled trade, it's more of the free aid given to a member/ghost/mistake who soon broke free of the Sith. Well, at least that's what I got out of it.
[/quote]
[color="#0000FF"]And we weren't supporting him at all. We made that clear from the beginning. If they just wanted that money back, yes, we could have paid three million. But they weren't interested in being reasonable.[/color]

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Rebel Virginia' timestamp='1289436385' post='2509806']
[color="#0000FF"]And we weren't supporting him at all. We made that clear from the beginning. If they just wanted that money back, yes, we could have paid three million. But they weren't interested in being reasonable.[/color]
[/quote]
Did you ask them?

[Locke]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1289435808' post='2509796']
I've saw many many times in the past Archon himself say that he stands behind the words and actions of his ministers in dealing with FA.

He certainly stood behind them in this case, even though he admitted they were in the wrong.
[/quote]
After RV made an attempt to impugn MK and lied to their faces (w/r/t agreeing then stopping payment). My guess is that it would be a different story if RV had gone to Archon [i]first[/i]. If it turned out he still supported them then, he would have another weapon in his PR arsenal. Either he would have gotten the matter resolved or gotten more evidence towards his claims, either way he would have won.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289436493' post='2509807']
Did you ask them?
[/quote]
Are you all seriously this blind?

<Rebel_Virginia> Well, I ain't too fond of idiots like that taking money.
<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but we won't be protecting him. He's on his own.
<Yevgeni> Your subordinates didn't inform you of our demands, did they?
<Rebel_Virginia> Yes, you want him to pay 3 mil and 50 tech to each of those he wronged, no?
<Yevgeni> Him or you. We consider NSO responsible as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
[b]<Rebel_Virginia> And I disagree.[/b]
<Rebel_Virginia> We ain't sheltering him, and we ain't supporting him.
<Rebel_Virginia> He violated some of our rules.
<Yevgeni> So, you do recognize that he was a member of yours?
<Yevgeni> Because we just spent a hour arguing with your two colleagues about his membership. They denied he was a member, despite overwhelming evidence pointing to the contrary.

First bold, he disagreed with the amount. He further states loss of protection and loss of membership.

If I join NpO, I am a full member. I while a member go rogue on an MK nation. Is NpO responsible? NO!

I am immediately disowned and open to attack by MK nations.

The same principles apply here. He was disowned. Plus its a trade circle for $%&@s sakes.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Fernando12

[Thrash]

C'mon, Locke. You're really reaching now.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289437434' post='2509817']
The same principles apply here. He was disowned. Plus its a trade circle for $%&@s sakes.
[/quote]

Droping a trade circle is worse than going rogue, didn't you know that?

[ktarthan]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289437434' post='2509817']
Are you all seriously this blind?

<Rebel_Virginia> Well, I ain't too fond of idiots like that taking money.
<Rebel_Virginia> Not sure what he was thinking, but we won't be protecting him. He's on his own.
<Yevgeni> Your subordinates didn't inform you of our demands, did they?
<Rebel_Virginia> Yes, you want him to pay 3 mil and 50 tech to each of those he wronged, no?
<Yevgeni> Him or you. We consider NSO responsible as he was, up until a hour ago, one of your members by all standards.
[b]<Rebel_Virginia> And I disagree.[/b]
<Rebel_Virginia> We ain't sheltering him, and we ain't supporting him.
<Rebel_Virginia> He violated some of our rules.
<Yevgeni> So, you do recognize that he was a member of yours?
<Yevgeni> Because we just spent a hour arguing with your two colleagues about his membership. They denied he was a member, despite overwhelming evidence pointing to the contrary.

First bold, he disagreed with the amount. He further states loss of protection and loss of membership.

If I join NpO, I am a full member. I while a member go rogue on an MK nation. Is NpO responsible? NO!

I am immediately disowned and open to attack by MK nations.

The same principles apply here. He was disowned. Plus its a trade circle for $%&@s sakes.
[/quote]
RV literally just said they'd have been okay paying 3m. I'm asking if he brought that up. I have no idea what you're going on about.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1289437767' post='2509822']
RV literally just said they'd have been okay paying 3m. I'm asking if he brought that up. I have no idea what you're going on about.
[/quote]
You know full well this entire episode on MK's part is bull. All you are is a yes man. Use real reasoning and speak the truth.

RV didn't need to specifically say 3m. That is not the point. The point of this entire thing is unprecedented extortion.

[greatmagnus]

Extortion. Now THERES a fun word. 15m/250tech is chump change and everyone here knows it. 1 nation could easily send that out and recover from it within a few weeks. (Counting tech. The money would take a day.) This is not "unprecedented extortion" in any way, shape, or form. It is a minuscule amount (As admitted by RV himself) and people need to get over it. Now it probably could have been handled better but this is not a bigger alliance making a smaller alliance give it everything it has, its a alliance who had some large nations have a cycle messed up because a member of a smaller alliance decided to scoop the money and run. So we tried to get some reps for lost revenue (Which are admitted to be small) and here we are after RV decided that even though the reps were "chump change" that he should raise a massive stink about paying them.