Backroom Extortion is Back

[AirMe]

[quote name='SirWilliam' timestamp='1289267856' post='2506921']
I am outraged, intrigued, and pleased. All at once.
[/quote]

Our channel needs more GOONS. Please rectify post haste.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289267749' post='2506919']
Then say what you mean next time!
[/quote]

I thought I did.

I assumed everyone knew MK and allies are willing and ready to roll NSO whenever the opportunity arises.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Tygaland

[xoindotnler]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289267161' post='2506905']
Put your money where your mouth is and declare war over this. Let's see what happens just for fun.
[/quote]
To make it extra fun they should roll your alliance to. Just for fun and seeing if you have the balls to do the things you shout at others. And for fun, damn thats fun to say.

Edited November 9, 2010 by xoindotnler

[Xiphosis]

[quote]What are you talking about? That's entirely reasonable and happens regularly. That's what you do when a member does something stupid and they aren't worth protecting. [/quote]

This, and it should've happened here. That it didn't speaks to other motives.

[Timtacious]

Meh. Reps are ridiculous. How about I do a tech deal with one of your guys and we call it square?

[Denial]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289267922' post='2506923']
I assumed everyone knew MK and allies are willing and ready to roll NSO whenever the oppotunity arises.
[/quote]
Oh, please. If that's what we wanted to do, we would have done it already. You would know as well as any that NSO aren't exactly shrewd when it comes to politics; barely a week goes by when they don't provide a reason for someone to declare war on them. Yet have we gone to war with NSO? No.

Critise the decision regarding the level of compensation all you want, but drop the Alterego-like 'the sky is falling!' hyperbole.

[Feanor Noldorin]

Yevgeni is a hard fella.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1289267910' post='2506922']
Our channel needs more GOONS. Please rectify post haste.
[/quote]

[OOC]As sad as it is to admit this, I need help setting up an auto-join list (to kick in upon connecting) for all my old channels. [/OOC]

[Ardus]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289267017' post='2506903']
It is clear MK view things in the way they can profit most. They knew NSO was in no position to bargain with them as MK had their hordes of allies ready to roll NSO if they refused to cooperate with their extortion attempt. Hence, they could pretty much ask for whatever they liked as a resolution to what really is non-issue.

I don't blame RV for spilling this publicly as many of us have been in similar situations over the journey where a larger power uses standover tactics to extort cash/tech above and beyond any real compensatory amount. I am always amused that people think that those in such a situation are somehow in the wrong for bringing these incidents to the light of public scrutiny.
[/quote]
Alliances can always attempt to bargain. They can always issue a counter-offer. RV didn't even try. He took the first offer and immediately ran to make a PR show of it. If we're looking for how we can "profit most", this would be a pretty piss poor way of doing it. I'm not particularly interested in rolling NSO. They aren't a worthy target. It's like arresting a hippie who goes limp and cries police brutality as soon as you show up in uniform.

This wasn't a "standover tactic." This was two people frustrated by getting the run around trying to get a resolution to a wrong. MK made an offer. NSO accepted. It takes two to contract.

[LittleRena]

[quote name='Axolotlia' timestamp='1289267561' post='2506914']
[quote name='MNNorthStars' timestamp='1289266472' post='2506898']
"pay up or blow up"
[/quote]

So much for:

[quote]<Epiphanus> This is hardly extortion.[/quote]

Nice to see MK coming clean i guess...
[/quote]

phew, for a minute I thought they where going to carry on being cilivlised

[Horatio Longworth]

[quote name='MNNorthStars' timestamp='1289266472' post='2506898']
"pay up or blow up"
[/quote]
Dare I say... do something about it?...

There, I said it. We're all doomed...

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289268514' post='2506940']
Alliances can always attempt to bargain....
[/quote]
Alliances can also see the error of demanding $15mi/250tech and can show everyone they are capable of correcting such demands to what is a more acceptable refund or $3mil/50tech at most.

You see everyone siding with NSO here except your own members, that should really tell you something. MK is not SIRIUS so I fully expect you all to stand your ground. This could get very interesting or very disappointing if NSO pays.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289268248' post='2506931']
Oh, please. If that's what we wanted to do, we would have done it already. You would know as well as any that NSO aren't exactly shrewd when it comes to politics; barely a week goes by when they don't provide a reason for someone to declare war on them. Yet have we gone to war with NSO? No.

Critise the decision regarding the level of compensation all you want, but drop the Alterego-like 'the sky is falling!' hyperbole.
[/quote]

I have criticised the "compensation" but that does not detract from the stronger bargaining position MK had compared to NSO when the resolution was "negotiated". I wonder what that stronger position could have been seeing as their complaint had no leg to stand on which counts out any perception of "right" being the reason for the strength of position in the negotiations.

Must be something else...can't put my finger on it. I'll ask Alterego and see if he can help me out.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289268514' post='2506940']
Alliances can always attempt to bargain. They can always issue a counter-offer. RV didn't even try. He took the first offer and immediately ran to make a PR show of it. If we're looking for how we can "profit most", this would be a pretty piss poor way of doing it. I'm not particularly interested in rolling NSO. They aren't a worthy target. It's like arresting a hippie who goes limp and cries police brutality as soon as you show up in uniform.

This wasn't a "standover tactic." This was two people frustrated by getting the run around trying to get a resolution to a wrong. [b]MK made an offer. NSO accepted. It takes two to contract.[/b]
[/quote]
This is what it boils down to. At this point, it's pay up or face the consequences of breaking the agreement. Other than that, perhaps come back and actually try to discuss the issue with our government, though after this stunt, you might find the bargaining rather tough.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289268904' post='2506957']
Alliances can also see the error of demanding $15mi/250tech and can show everyone they are capable of correcting such demands to what is a more acceptable refund or $3mil/50tech at most.

You see everyone siding with NSO here except your own members, that should really tell you something. MK is not SIRIUS so I fully expect you all to stand your ground. This could get very interesting or very disappointing if NSO pays.
[/quote]
You never start at your target in negotiations. You start high, negotiate, and conclude at a reasonable number. It's how good faith bargaining works.

"Everyone" being the #stratego crowd, some Polars, and Tyga. That said, numbers don't make right and wrong. We were right when the numbers were stacked against us before Karma. We're right now when we're "on top of the world". We won't bend or change because Rebel Virginia and the NSO decided they wanted a PR stunt more than a good faith resolution to a simple matter.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289268514' post='2506940']
Alliances can always attempt to bargain. They can always issue a counter-offer. RV didn't even try.
[/quote]

I wonder why that was. A real puzzler...

[quote]
He took the first offer and immediately ran to make a PR show of it. If we're looking for how we can "profit most", this would be a pretty piss poor way of doing it. I'm not particularly interested in rolling NSO. They aren't a worthy target. It's like arresting a hippie who goes limp and cries police brutality as soon as you show up in uniform.
[/quote]

The fact you even opened with such an "offer" in a situation most alliances handle without the need to try and extort cash/tech above and beyond real compensation is a disgrace. I can see why it going public pissed you off.

[quote]
This wasn't a "standover tactic." This was two people frustrated by getting the run around trying to get a resolution to a wrong. MK made an offer. NSO accepted. It takes two to contract.
[/quote]

Ignoring the positions of each alliance in the "negotiations", of course. The only people who should be frustrated are NSO who are expected to pay for a non-issue because you knew you'd get away with it and the person who paid 3 million for a trade and lost it.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Rafael Nadal' timestamp='1289269029' post='2506966']
This is what it boils down to. At this point, it's pay up or face the consequences of breaking the agreement. Other than that, perhaps come back and actually try to discuss the issue with our government, though after this stunt, you might find the bargaining rather tough.
[/quote]
Ultimatum?

NSO friends better be lining up, including you Tyga/STA. You know this crap MK is pulling is pure garbage. I hope NSO's friends stand with them, no matter what... no matter what... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIEJ7SoAks8&feature=related

Edited November 9, 2010 by Fernando12

[Denial]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289268962' post='2506960']
I have criticised the "compensation" but that does not detract from the stronger bargaining position MK had compared to NSO when the resolution was "negotiated". I wonder what that stronger position could have been seeing as their complaint had no leg to stand on which counts out any perception of "right" being the reason for the strength of position in the negotiations.

Must be something else...can't put my finger on it. I'll ask Alterego and see if he can help me out.
[/quote]
There's a difference between being in a stronger negotiating position and your ludicrous claim that we are looking for any excuse to roll NSO.

[Letum]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289268514' post='2506940']
This wasn't a "standover tactic." This was two people frustrated by getting the run around trying to get a resolution to a wrong. MK made an offer. NSO accepted. It takes two to contract.
[/quote]

No.

Having an inferior party agree to an unfavourable situation doesn't magically make things alright. That would be the basis of a "might makes right" thinking, where any bully can hide behind the "agreement" of the people he is intimidating to take the less painful option.

This is not a 'choice' borne out of free will or honor. This is a 'choice' where NSO believed they had to "pay up or blow up".

[Mathias]

[quote name='BlkAK47_002' timestamp='1289265564' post='2506878']
Yes but this is about MK and NSO, not NPO. You claim you are nothing like us but, if that is the case then you shouldn't be comparing yourselves to us so often.

I also recall some MK posters making fun of Haf for bringing up 2 year old evidence...
[/quote]

My point was more against those who were claiming that alliances were never held responsible for their members. I too am of the opinion that the constant comparisons to NPO get old, unfortunately you guys did provide a lot of material during your reign.

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289269372' post='2506986']
There's a difference between being in a stronger negotiating position and your ludicrous claim that we are looking for any excuse to roll NSO.
[/quote]

When your "stronger negotiating position" is based on the threat of brute force, the difference might be very thin indeed.

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289269333' post='2506984']
Ultimatum?

NSO friends better be lining up, including you Tyga/STA. You know this crap MK is pulling is pure garbage. I hope NSO's friends stand with them, no matter what... no matter what... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIEJ7SoAks8&feature=related
[/quote]

Facing consequences for reneging on an agreement is hardly the type of sinister ultimatum you're trying to imply.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289269430' post='2506988']
No.

Having an inferior party agree to an unfavourable situation doesn't magically make things alright. That would be the basis of a "might makes right" thinking, where any bully can hide behind the "agreement" of the people he is intimidating to take the less painful option.

This is not a 'choice' borne out of free will or honor. This is a 'choice' where NSO believed they had to "pay up or blow up".
[/quote]
The choice the NSO made here was to use the conversation for a PR war (see: this thread). RV knew perfectly well we weren't going to roll him for asking to reduce the price to a more reasonable level.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289269290' post='2506981']
Ignoring the positions of each alliance in the "negotiations", of course. The only people who should be frustrated are NSO who are expected to pay for a non-issue because you knew you'd get away with it and the person who paid 3 million for a trade and lost it.
[/quote]
[s]You can't[/s] It's inappropriate to hold MK responsible because NSO suffers a vertebral deficiency. If they had even a modicum of fortitude or self-respect away from the limelight nobody would have ever even heard of this. Instead they danced around simple questions to piss us off and then went public.

NSO is an alliance that cannot be communicated with by anybody on the "opposite side of the web". It isn't for a lack of our trying. Every effort to get questions answered is deliberately resisted. Every suggestion or request is trumped up to extortion. Every reasonable and expected request flatly denied. And every time they do it you defend them, encourage them, condone them.

I for one am sick of it. They chose not to negotiate and operate in anything resembling a professional manner. Our demands are our demands. I want a straight answer from NSO, knowing I'll never get it. Yes or no?

[Heft]

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1289269157' post='2506972']
"Everyone" being the #stratego crowd, some Polars, and Tyga. That said, numbers don't make right and wrong. We were right when the numbers were stacked against us before Karma. We're right now when we're "on top of the world". We won't bend or change because Rebel Virginia and the NSO decided they wanted a PR stunt more than a good faith resolution to a simple matter.
[/quote]
Demanding 5x reps plus tech for actions we had never condoned or been aware of committed by a nation we were not protecting was a pretty clear sign that this was not going to end in a "good faith resolution."