Backroom Extortion is Back

[Lusitan]

Line of speech curve in this thread is damn interesting. Only sorry you have to read the 30+ pages to see it change.

[Denial]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289269515' post='2506991']
When your "stronger negotiating position" is based on the threat of brute force, the difference might be very thin indeed.
[/quote]
Augmenting the chance of meeting our goals in negotiation due to our superior military does not equal looking for any excuse to roll NSO, as has been erroneously claimed by Tyga. If his claim was true, and we were looking for any excuse to attack NSO, we would not be interested in negotiation whatsoever.

It's funny, really. We are labelled as some evil hegemon, while simultaneously being criticised as looking for any excuse to attack other alliances (who that alliance happens to be seems to change on a weekly basis, according to the fickle public). If we were the evil hegemon many claim us to be, we would have already rolled those alliances we apparently wish to see burn. We wouldn't bother with 'excuses'.

The simple fact of the matter is that we really couldn't care less about attacking NSO. I realise that our detractors won't take my word for this, but the reality is that there are many other alliances we detest far more than NSO.

[Letum]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289269885' post='2507002']
The choice the NSO made here was to use the conversation for a PR war (see: this thread). RV knew perfectly well we weren't going to roll him for asking to reduce the price to a more reasonable level.
[/quote]

Do you often begin 'negotiations' with unreasonable levels and an army at your back?

Because that might give a clue as to why people don't bother.

[Denial]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289270123' post='2507010']
Do you often begin 'negotiations' with unreasonable levels and an army at your back?

Because that might give a clue as to why people don't bother.
[/quote]
Firstly, what constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is subjective. Secondly, what would you have us do? Drop our treaties and decommission our armed forces prior to negotiation?

Lastly, a member of Pacifica harping on about negotiation buttressed by superior military force is a little rich.

[Fernando12]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289270083' post='2507007']

The simple fact of the matter is that we really couldn't care less about attacking NSO. I realise that our detractors won't take my word for this, but the reality is that there are many other alliances we detest far more than NSO.
[/quote]
Prove it. Walk away with a refund or a simple $3mil/50tech. If you do then perhaps we'll begin to believe you had no intentions to roll NSO.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1289270063' post='2507005']
Demanding 5x reps plus tech for actions we had never condoned or been aware of committed by a nation we were not protecting was a pretty clear sign that this was not going to end in a "good faith resolution."
[/quote]
Yes, your actions (posting this thread and contradictory statements) ensured it didn't.

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289270123' post='2507010']
Do you often begin 'negotiations' with unreasonable levels and an army at your back?

Because that might give a clue as to why people don't bother.
[/quote]
Well, yes, that is how CN negotiations generally go. I remember (and I know Yev does) the BiPolar negotiations. You've been around for a while and I assume you have some knowledge of negotiating. I can't think of a single scenario where the aggrieved party has demanded more than they're going to get.

[Kalasin]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289270123' post='2507010']
Do you often begin 'negotiations' with unreasonable levels and an army at your back?

Because that might give a clue as to why people don't bother.
[/quote]

xfd

Coming from NPO, this is absolutely hilarious.

[Heft]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289270387' post='2507024']
Yes, your actions (posting this thread and contradictory statements) ensured it didn't.
[/quote]
You are just useless.

Are you one of the ones complaining about other people making inane posts that don't contain any meaningful content or address any real issue in anyway or respond to whatever they're responding to at all? Because that would just be too much.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289265948' post='2506887']
Utterly disgraceful but not unexpected. Poor form, MK.

What was once a respected alliance is almost unrecognisable and in such a short space of time.
[/quote]

short time, how long has it been since Pre-Karma MK who was always worried about being rolled for exactly the same !@#$ they are doing to others now that they are in power? at least it is refreshing that so many people are finally realizing that the propaganda promoted by those on the Remnants side was not just propaganda.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1289268141' post='2506928']
This, and it should've happened here. That it didn't speaks to other motives.
[/quote]

it did. NSO kicked out said member and told MK. MK did not care and still demanded extortion from NSO. so you are quite right in that MK had other motives.

[brickyard]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289270368' post='2507021']
Prove it. Walk away with a refund or a simple $3mil/50tech. If you do then perhaps we'll begin to believe you had no intentions to roll NSO.
[/quote]

Reading this made sorting through all these pages worth it. I havent had a laugh like this in a while

[RePePe]

This talk of negotiations is assuming that NSO should be responsible for the actions of a (for lack of a better word) "rogue."

Extortion agreed to by the other party is still extortion.

[Denial]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289270368' post='2507021']
Prove it. Walk away with a refund or a simple $3mil/50tech. If you do then perhaps we'll begin to believe you had no intentions to roll NSO.
[/quote]
what

How in the world would lowering the level of compensation prove that?

[Rafael Nadal]

[quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1289270368' post='2507021']
Prove it. Walk away with a refund or a simple $3mil/50tech. If you do then perhaps we'll begin to believe you had no intentions to roll NSO.
[/quote]
lol

Just look at the nation strength make-up for NSO. It wouldn't even be enjoyable for the upper half of MK because none of them would be in range to declare. Just take a second and do some thinking and research sometimes; tough, I know.

Edit: Sorry, real number is somewhere around 1/4 to 1/3 of MK.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Rafael Nadal

[Kalasin]

Seriously, if anyone had posted negotiations with NPO back in 2008 in an attempt to make them look bad, a whole bunch of alliance leaders would forbid anyone not in high government to post, and the thread certainly wouldn't reach 30 pages. Then NPO would roll them and impose a Viceroy. The fact that everyone here is unafraid to voice their opinions on this stuff is just an indication of how free these boards really are, and a reflection of the different world which Karma created. Thus, the comparisons between NPO and MK are just ludicrous.

[Banksy]

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1289270559' post='2507031']
You are just useless.

Are you one of the ones complaining about other people making inane posts that don't contain any meaningful content or address any real issue in anyway or respond to whatever they're responding to at all? Because that would just be too much.
[/quote]
Hmm? Are you the one attempting to call me out for something, and then committing the exact same crime? Because that would just be too ironic.

[Felix von Agnu]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289269372' post='2506986']
There's a difference between being in a stronger negotiating position and your ludicrous claim that we are looking for any excuse to roll NSO.
[/quote]
I believe Tyga is saying that you were abusing your stronger position to force NSO to pay for something that should have been a non-issue.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289269372' post='2506986']
There's a difference between being in a stronger negotiating position and your ludicrous claim that we are looking for any excuse to roll NSO.
[/quote]

Not when your stronger negotiating position [i]is[/i] your military strength plus a fairly obvious desire to see NSO rolled. You can try and pretend the elephant in the room is not here but most if us can see it quite clearly.

If this was anyone else but NSO I highly doubt you'd have pursued it anywhere near as aggressively as you have, if at all.

[Letum]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289270083' post='2507007']
Augmenting the chance of meeting our goals in negotiation due to our superior military does not equal looking for any excuse to roll NSO, as has been erroneously claimed by Tyga. If his claim was true, and we were looking for any excuse to attack NSO, we would not be interested in negotiation whatsoever.

It's funny, really. We are labelled as some evil hegemon, while simultaneously being criticised as looking for any excuse to attack other alliances (who that alliance happens to be seems to change on a weekly basis, according to the fickle public). If we were the evil hegemon many claim us to be, we would have already rolled those alliances we apparently wish to see burn. We wouldn't bother with 'excuses'.
[/quote]

For this to hold true, then your "superior negotiating position" would have to be backed by nothing but a bluff. Since I am assuming that is not true, then what is going on here is a 'negotiation' where your chances are 'augmented' by your "superior military" via that military being used if your goals are not met.

That is called intimidation, and people not giving in would, in accordance with the above, result in an "excuse" for an attack. Given that the initial demand is unreasonable, that means that said excuse has been manufactured in accordance with a political goal, which is why this is so harshly criticised.

The fact that the other party caved in before that point doesn't really change anything. Force is merely a tool to fulfil the hegemon's goals, force isn't a goal in itself.

[quote]
but the reality is that there are many other alliances we detest far more than NSO.
[/quote]

I'm sure there are many other alliances who detest you far more too. It's a bit like flirting.

[Tygaland]

[quote name='Felix von Agnu' timestamp='1289270810' post='2507044']
I believe Tyga is saying that you were abusing your stronger position to force NSO to pay for something that should have been a non-issue.
[/quote]

Shhh...no one is supposed to see the elephant!

[Lord Levistus]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289270419' post='2507026']
xfd

Coming from NPO, this is absolutely hilarious.
[/quote]
Because the words come from a member of any specific alliance doesn't mean those words aren't valid. Such rebuttals smack of an inability to actually debate the topic. Instead the speaker is attacked in an attempt to marginalize his voice.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Letum' timestamp='1289270837' post='2507046']
For this to hold true, then your "superior negotiating position" would have to be backed by nothing but a bluff. Since I am assuming that is not true, then what is going on here is a 'negotiation' where your chances are 'augmented' by your "superior military" via that military being used if your goals are not met.

That is called intimidation, and people not giving in would, in accordance with the above, result in an "excuse" for an attack. Given that the initial demand is unreasonable, that means that said excuse has been manufactured in accordance with a political goal, which is why this is so harshly criticised.

The fact that the other party caved in before that point doesn't really change anything. Force is merely a tool to fulfil the hegemon's goals, force isn't a goal in itself.



I'm sure there are many other alliances who detest you far more too. It's a bit like flirting.
[/quote]
So strong alliances can no longer interact with weaker alliances without being evil or dishonest. Got it.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Ardus

[WorldConqueror]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1289270365' post='2507020']
Firstly, what constitutes reasonable and unreasonable is subjective. Secondly, what would you have us do? Drop our treaties and decommission our armed forces prior to negotiation?

Lastly, a member of Pacifica harping on about negotiation buttressed by superior military force is a little rich.
[/quote]
[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289270419' post='2507026']
xfd

Coming from NPO, this is absolutely hilarious.
[/quote]
You do realise that bringing up someone's AA in no way invalidates their points, or strengthens yours in this situation. But do carry on, it is amusing to see you resort to 'HURR UR IN NPO LAWL' to somehow reinforce your failing argument.

[Heft]

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1289270800' post='2507043']
Hmm? Are you the one attempting to call me out for something, and then committing the exact same crime? Because that would just be too ironic.
[/quote]
There was nothing meaningful for me to respond to in your response.

That's the entire reason I said what I did.

Words, they are difficult.

[Omniscient1]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1289270749' post='2507041']
Seriously, if anyone had posted negotiations with NPO back in 2008 in an attempt to make them look bad, a whole bunch of alliance leaders would forbid anyone not in high government to post, and the thread certainly wouldn't reach 30 pages. Then NPO would roll them and impose a Viceroy. The fact that everyone here is unafraid to voice their opinions on this stuff is just an indication of how free these boards really are, and a reflection of the different world which Karma created. Thus, the comparisons between NPO and MK are just ludicrous.
[/quote]

Do you think we should ignore injustice though, because it's not as bad? Honestly I was laughing at the people screaming about the evil new hegemony too, but here lately it seems as if MK and their buddies are hoping someone will end up getting mad at them. They're pushing buttons praying that they piss off just enough people for someone to do something about it. Eventually they'll go too far.

I wish MK would go back to the way they used to be. Standing up for morals and never backing down. I guess I'm just a naive dreamer though so I won't hold my breath.

[Ardus]

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1289270818' post='2507045']
Not when your stronger negotiating position [i]is[/i] your military strength plus a fairly obvious desire to see NSO rolled. You can try and pretend the elephant in the room is not here but most if us can see it quite clearly.

If this was anyone else but NSO I highly doubt you'd have pursued it anywhere near as aggressively as you have, if at all.
[/quote]
Since Karma, MK has engaged in one war--Bi-Polar, and in that we were struck first. Fears of spontaneous annihilation at our hands are totally unfounded.

Roll XYZ.