Pandora's Box

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1286564710' post='2479019']
erm...2 things...

GOONS has a MDoAP with =LOST=.....i dont see how ODN would have pulled them in onto UPN's side. Rather, =LOST= can pull ODN onto the GOONS side

Secondly, if 64digits is relevant, so is OcUK
[/quote]

hmm... actually did not know =LOST= and GOONS have an MDoAP... also, who said 64digits is relevant?

[quote name='Steve Buscemi' timestamp='1286568414' post='2479062']
*sign*. I need to stop posting in the OWF. Is everything just propaganda to you? I gave MY honest opinion. What does GOONS opinion have to do with my post? Besides all that you [b]completely[/b] missed the entire point of my post. Ugh. And it comes from someone I actually have respect for...as well as your alliance (IAA standing up for GATO during the 1V war).
[/quote]

actually if you read the other posts, you will have noticed i said i knew next to nothing of the situation. that was not propaganda more than it was ribbing. not even the GOONS members got that upset bout that post to my knowledge.

[HeroofTime55]

I don't know how 64Digits got on that list, as if we would roll for an alliance as miserable as UPN.

[pezstar]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286600161' post='2479425']
I don't know how 64Digits got on that list, as if we would roll for an alliance as miserable as UPN.


[/quote]

You are on the list because you were in the channel, actively suggesting and encouraging a war. It's pretty clear to me.

[Matthew Conrad]

The fact Peggy and UPN were so gullible and excited to act as obvious meat shields is probably the best part of this.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='pezstar' timestamp='1286602001' post='2479450']
You are on the list because you were in the channel, actively suggesting and encouraging a war. It's pretty clear to me.
[/quote][img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/woosh.jpg[/img]

I was only joking, I'm well aware of why we were on that list

Edited October 9, 2010 by HeroofTime55

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='raasaa' timestamp='1286564710' post='2479019']
erm...2 things...

GOONS has a MDoAP with =LOST=.....i dont see how ODN would have pulled them in onto UPN's side. Rather, =LOST= can pull ODN onto the GOONS side

Secondly, if 64digits is relevant, so is OcUK
[/quote]


I would think the MADP CnG bloc treaty that LOST and ODN share would override the MDoAP with GOONS. We've been informed many many times in the past that if one member of CnG wars either aggressively or defensively with someone, they all are at war with someone.

[General Scipio]

The best part of the logs in my opinion is the part about demanding 90m for every day at war.

"Guys, were the biggest moralists on the planet right?"


2 minutes later

"I got a good idea, next time GOONS screw up lets charge them 30x more than they would ask from us for the same situation. That'll show the world just how moralist we are right?"

Seriously, drop the hypocritcal moralist act, it's getting old.

[Vol Navy]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1286607559' post='2479498']
The best part of the logs in my opinion is the part about demanding 90m for every day at war.

"Guys, were the biggest moralists on the planet right?"


2 minutes later

"I got a good idea, next time GOONS screw up lets charge them 30x more than they would ask from us for the same situation. That'll show the world just how moralist we are right?"

Seriously, drop the hypocritcal moralist act, it's getting old.
[/quote]


I am pretty sure that 90m figure comes from GOONS asking for 90m several times in the past month or so for incidents involving Methrage.

[Biazt]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286607643' post='2479501']
I am pretty sure that 90m figure comes from GOONS asking for 90m several times in the past month or so for incidents involving Methrage.
[/quote]
He said "same situation". Not completely different situation.

[General Scipio]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286607643' post='2479501']
I am pretty sure that 90m figure comes from GOONS asking for 90m several times in the past month or so for incidents involving Methrage.
[/quote]
And I'm pretty sure even Ray Charles could see that there is a difference between aiding a known nuclear rogue and a bad tech raid on a sub 1k infra nation.

[TypoNinja]

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1286603018' post='2479462']
[img]http://cybernations.64digits.com/forums/Smileys/default/woosh.jpg[/img]

I was only joking, I'm well aware of why we were on that list
[/quote]

To be able to make fun of someone for missing your 'joke', it needs to actually include a punchline.

As it is the closest thing you have to a punchline is that you lead an alliance.

[HeroofTime55]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1286608560' post='2479511']
To be able to make fun of someone for missing your 'joke', it needs to actually include a punchline.

As it is the closest thing you have to a punchline is that you lead an alliance.
[/quote]Might I suggest wiping the froth from the corner of your mouth?

[Earogema]

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1286608560' post='2479511']
To be able to make fun of someone for missing your 'joke', it needs to actually include a punchline.

As it is the closest thing you have to a punchline is that you lead an alliance.
[/quote]
Oh come on. By the time he posted that it it was obvious that 64 digits had confirmed it would be part of this. If HoT isn't joking he's really stupid (Oh boy here comes the post that says that he is!)

I mean, sometimes you people will jump at anything to insult a person. This thread was already terrible even before this WCE nonsense because of that very reason.

[Cataduanes]

[quote name='Grumpdogg' timestamp='1286528104' post='2478718']
Because ODN wouldn't recognise principles if they tripped over them while walking away to save their pixels. [/quote]
!@#$%^&*, I fought for ODN in the last couple of major wars, we gave our all most notably in the battles against TOP and sacrificed a hell of a lot. You have either not been paying attention or are so blinded by bias...I suspect it is a bit of both. And before you go onto wax lyrical on ODN's principles perhaps you should step back and take stock of your own AA's recent history

[Denial]

[quote name='General Scipio' timestamp='1286607559' post='2479498']
The best part of the logs in my opinion is the part about demanding 90m for every day at war.

"Guys, were the biggest moralists on the planet right?"


2 minutes later

"I got a good idea, next time GOONS screw up lets charge them 30x more than they would ask from us for the same situation. That'll show the world just how moralist we are right?"

Seriously, drop the hypocritcal moralist act, it's getting old.
[/quote]
You mean the people responsible or complicit in the worst aspects of the pre-Karma era aren't legitimate when they now harp on about morals? I refuse to believe it [img]http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz304/Revanche23/colbert.gif[/img]

[Il Impero Romano]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1286613035' post='2479538']
You mean the people responsible or complicit in the worst aspects of the pre-Karma era aren't legitimate when they now harp on about morals? I refuse to believe it [img]http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz304/Revanche23/colbert.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Shocking, right?

While those logs are amusing, they are by no means surprising. It's great to see all the manipulation and snake tactics put right out in the open though. If that didn't leak and they set up their decoy alliance and whatnot, imagine the show they would have put on lieing to everyones faces.

[TypoNinja]

Edit: posting at 5 am is bad, see you folks after some shut eye

Edited October 9, 2010 by TypoNinja

[Alterego]

[quote name='Cataduanes' timestamp='1286610833' post='2479530']
!@#$%^&*, I fought for ODN in the last couple of major wars, we gave our all most notably in the battles against TOP and sacrificed a hell of a lot. You have either not been paying attention or are so blinded by bias...I suspect it is a bit of both. And before you go onto wax lyrical on ODN's principles perhaps you should step back and take stock of your own AA's recent history
[/quote]
[b]
Bi-Polar war:[/b] Its hard to walk away when a group of powerful alliances ran at you and continued coming at you. You were cornered and had nowhere to run so you had to fight. Dont try to make out you were going out of your way to fight.

[b]Karma war: [/b]You ditched allies on the smaller side to fight with allies on the bigger side. I love the bolded line, you weren't placed on alternate sides. You saw the sides then picked the bigger side.

[quote name='Sunstar' timestamp='1240368858' post='1441918']
The ODN Senate wishes it be known that we will not be able to support our allies who decide to defend this senseless action. [b]We understand and respect their committments, and regret that we may be placed on alternate sides of this dispute.[/b] They have been informed of our stance, and we hope to be able to reconcile our differences
[/quote]

[KainIIIC]

universal bob translation to ODN: we're all majorly disappointed that you cblocked our global war / rolling GOONS opportunity.

[Stefano Palmieri]

[quote name='Vol Navy' timestamp='1286607521' post='2479497']
I would think the MADP CnG bloc treaty that LOST and ODN share would override the MDoAP with GOONS. We've been informed many many times in the past that if one member of CnG wars either aggressively or defensively with someone, they all are at war with someone.
[/quote]
I think you're missing the point. We could have activated the mutual aggression clause of C&G before ODN or at least still managed to hit some of the parties involved in rolling GOONS, without violating CnG. However you did get it right that taking one of us means getting all of us.

[Hiro Nakara]

[20:12] <%pezstar> But really, Daggarz, are you actually in charge of an alliance? Because you haven't said a single intelligent thing yet.


^ This made me lol hard.

[Petrovich4]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286613892' post='2479544']
[b]
Bi-Polar war:[/b] Its hard to walk away when a group of powerful alliances ran at you and continued coming at you. You were cornered and had nowhere to run so you had to fight. Dont try to make out you were going out of your way to fight.[/quote]

This is true, using your analogy. A fight is still a fight however. And you must remember that this:

[quote][b]Karma war: [/b]You ditched allies on the smaller side to fight with allies on the bigger side. I love the bolded line, you weren't placed on alternate sides. You saw the sides then picked the bigger side.
[/quote]

came before BiPolar. ODN's treaties did not align with their thoughts and feelings prior to Karma for a long time. They were caught in an awkward and embarassing position and they have learnt from it since Karma.

[Monster]

[quote name='Alterego' timestamp='1286613892' post='2479544']
[b]
Bi-Polar war:[/b] Its hard to walk away when a group of powerful alliances ran at you and continued coming at you. You were cornered and had nowhere to run so you had to fight. Dont try to make out you were going out of your way to fight.

[b]Karma war: [/b]You ditched allies on the smaller side to fight with allies on the bigger side. I love the bolded line, you weren't placed on alternate sides. You saw the sides then picked the bigger side.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure they decided before the outcome was clear. They had plenty of allies on the Karma side, like Vanguard(who were bound to defend Ordo Verde), RnR and Int. To say it was some sort of "side with the winner" thing isn't accurate. The war was not decided before it began and as someone who was particularly worried about how it'd turn out, I can't say joining on the Karma side exactly had material benefits in store for the ODN. They sided with who they thought was in the right. Given the negative PR they continued to face, I don't think they were under any illusions that it would repair their image or provide them with some other benefit to side with Karma.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Antoine Roquentin

[Kalasin]

*sigh*

Sunstar actually wanted to side with IRON in Karma. It's a little known fact but it's true. The thing is, Arsenal became more active in the ODN in about January 2009, and was appointed Deputy Secretary of State. From there he started ODN's move towards C&G, quite early on. There are records of this in our state archives, if you need proof. This was not out of cowardice. I remind everyone that in early 2009, the world was still largely dominated by NPO. iirc Polar was only coming out of terms at that point. Arsenal's motivations were simple - he hated the hegemony, particularly NPO, and wanted to see us move away from them. Then, in about March, he was appointed Secretary of State, where he had a lot more influence. There was a strong push to get closer to MK. During his time as SoS, he also managed to piss off IRON, with the International/IRON/VE incident. I think after that, when Karma swung around, it was pretty clear that ODN wouldn't side with IRON, because relations between us had already taken a severe hit (frankly IRON's complaints about our actions in Karma are mere propaganda.) Even so, the hegemonists in ODN were not pleased by our decision and decided to go off and form their own little alliance called DAWN while Karma was still ongoing, and signed a treaty with IRON.

I think ODN's decision as a whole also had a lot to do with the fact that our efforts to get close to NPO for like, a year, had been entirely unsuccessful. They actually almost rolled us in about December 2008. They are notorious for holding grudges and they were simply unwilling to overcome our history. By Karma it was clear that we would never get close to them, and so we chose the other side. Given that most people thought we'd go neutral, I think it was the ballsy move.

Then we started real military reform. Traditionally, ODN's military had frankly sucked. We shed a lot of dead weight, but we're now very active (on our forums, at least, we tend to avoid the OWF) and we have good warchests and WRCs and stuff. We got into C&G after a lot of hard work and fully committed ourselves in the TOP-C&G war. We could've turtled or run to peacemode, but we gave everything for our allies and tried to take the opportunity to demonstrate to the world that we'd reformed.

So, given the events of the past year and a half, I'd say ODN's done everything possible to prove itself. If not, I’m open to suggestions on how to further prove ourselves. We haven't had the opportunity to fight a losing war, but to be blunt I have no intention of losing a war simply to prove a point, and neither does anyone else. People have to decide, given the circumstances, whether they are prepared to trust us based on our attempts to demonstrate our reform- and I think most people (short of the real nuts, Alterego) have come to realise we're a good ally.

I did *try* to avoid a discussion of ODN history, because it's totally irrelevant to this topic, and because I didn't want to give people the opportunity to have a go at us. But I refuse to lie down and have people take cheap shots at my alliance. To claim "we wouldn't know morals if we tripped over them while running from a fight" demonstrates tremendous ignorance about us. I think - I hope - it's simply a comment born out of bitterness because you missed an opportunity to attack someone you dislike.

[Alterego]

[quote name='Kalasin' timestamp='1286617315' post='2479562']
We haven't had the opportunity to fight a losing war, but to be blunt I have no intention of losing a war simply to prove a point, and neither does anyone else. People have to decide, given the circumstances, whether they are prepared to trust us based on our attempts to demonstrate our reform- and I think most people (short of the real nuts, Alterego) have come to realise we're a good ally.
[/quote]
This is the difference between people like me and you. You think words mean something and I think words are worthless and only actions matter. This "nut" would burn in a heartbeat for his alliance and allies. Size of the opposition is totally irrelevant to me and people like me that you and others like you dismiss while you sit in backrooms and consider how to extract yourself from a war you might lose. UPN gave you a chance and you said no. You are a great ally when it comes to words but still a terrible ally when it comes to your actions in times of peril.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Alterego