Fernando12 Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 My nation declared its existence in June 2009. I remember there was just over 30k nations maybe even up to 32k. What drove 10k-12k nations to oblivion? It's certainly not raiding alliances that are dwindling the numbers. If most nations are like mine, they do want to build their tech and infra and have all the wonders and be a top nation. But, they also like war and getting pummeled is no big deal. It's easy to grow a nation if you're in an alliance connected on the treaty web so you can have your stats. Some nations perhaps enjoy being in small alliances unassociated from the world because of the risk of war. We really don't know why some nations went to oblivion. Large groups of nations haven't posted their reasons or a manifesto of why they let their nations go to oblivion. All we are doing is assuming why and blaming raids seems like the hot new idea, don't give GOONS that much credit people. There are plenty of other reasons to hate on GOONS. For many nations it was the Karma War. The victors perhaps went to oblivion because by defeating the NPO and putting it under long term reparations they achieved their ultimate and only goal. The high from that epic victory could not be equaled so they left to oblivion soon after or during the long periods of stagnation as they realized that type of fight would take a long time to develop again. They were done, nothing more to accomplish. For the losers of the Karma War there was probably similar feelings. The defeat made them realize that their time at the top was over and it would be a very long time for them to see the top again. Many perhaps chose oblivion simply because they were satisfied with their run at the top and simply acknowledged defeat and left. Some nations realize that power is concentrated in just a few people, probably less than 25 people in all of Bob control when anything happens. 25 is probably too generous a number. Many that have gone to oblivion have probably realized that the chances of them being the Archons, the Hoos, the AlmightGrubs, the Xiphosis, the Moldavi, the etc...are 1 in a billion? So why continue? You want an in depth look at how stagnate Bob is? You want a hard slap in the face at reality and how some alliances don't matter at all? Most alliances are just truly being used to provide a few people with power. Most alliances will never be at the center of the cause of a war, impose a new idea or doctrine, or achieve anything at all besides milestone announcements, and will only ride to war when they are told to do so. That is what causes stagnation and causes many to choose oblivion, because even "leaders" of large alliances like RnR or others are not leaders at all. They merely represent their alliances and are subject to the orders given by the real leaders of Bob. Read and you'll get an idea of how things work, plus some other good info. Also, sorry Xerxer. [quote] Session Start: Fri Sep 24 17:07:19 2010 Session Ident: Xerxer [17:07] Session Ident: Xerxer [17:07] <Xerxer> Heh. 01[17:07] <Fernando12> why you leave rok? 01[17:07] <Fernando12> so i say 01[17:07] <Fernando12> hope all is cool [17:08] <Xerxer> Found out how things went down at the top level, worked there for a few months, and I'm pretty disillusioned. 01[17:08] <Fernando12> what? 01[17:08] <Fernando12> about moving up? [17:08] <Xerxer> No, about the way of the world. 01[17:08] <Fernando12> oh? 01[17:08] <Fernando12> what is the way of the world? [17:09] <Xerxer> Can't tell you details for a few reasons. First would be RoK would kick my ass, second, you may not believe me. [17:09] <Xerxer> [17:10] <Xerxer> But the gist of it is nothing big happens without the approval of an elite few. 01[17:10] <Fernando12> i would believe you....i've heard some things recently that has me wondering what the hell i'm doing 01[17:10] <Fernando12> elite few....yeah [17:10] <Xerxer> There is no such thing as independence at a personal, or even an alliance level. 01[17:10] <Fernando12> its the way of the world even in real life [17:11] <Xerxer> Wanna know how FA works? People ask Hoo if it's okay, THEN they do it. [17:11] <Xerxer> Regardless of their political standing. 01[17:11] <Fernando12> its like that in most alliances [17:11] <Xerxer> No, I mean OTHER people ask Hoo if it's okay. [17:11] <Xerxer> Like other alliances. 01[17:11] <Fernando12> oh [17:12] <Xerxer> For example, NoR comes to us saying they want to go to war, and Hoo gives the yes/no. 01[17:12] <Fernando12> NoR and ROK are allies [17:12] <Xerxer> Yeah. 01[17:12] <Fernando12> without ROK, NoR really can't war anyone.... 01[17:12] <Fernando12> ROK brings in SF and company [17:12] <Xerxer> Bad example. 01[17:13] <Fernando12> only a few have power [17:13] <Xerxer> And most of them abuse it. 01[17:14] <Fernando12> if i were NoR, I'd inform allies that war is necessary and the reasons...declare war, activate treaties, in a way force allies to move...i wouldn't ask if we go will you go....i'm going and i'm going to do the best i can to force allies along 01[17:14] <Fernando12> if 01[17:15] <Fernando12> if its a war worth fighting 01[17:15] <Fernando12> MK and ROK are the power 01[17:15] <Fernando12> MK rules CnG 01[17:15] <Fernando12> ROK rules SF 01[17:15] <Fernando12> whatever they want happens 01[17:16] No such nick/channel [21:44] <Xerxer> Sorry to duck out on you earlier [21:44] <Xerxer> Did you get my last line? 01[21:44] <Fernando12> no [21:45] <Xerxer> "The old hegemony was more upfront about it, but this hegemony sucks just as bad." 01[21:45] <Fernando12> duh 01[21:45] <Fernando12> Xerxer, i'm surprised you just realise this 01[21:45] <Fernando12> a heg never knows how bad it is [21:46] <Xerxer> I'm thinking of a few options at the moment. 01[21:46] <Fernando12> so am i [21:49] <Xerxer> CnG vs SF? 01[21:50] <Fernando12> no 01[21:50] <Fernando12> lol 01[21:50] <Fernando12> i dont have any means to be able to split them 06[21:50] * Xerxer does. [01[21:51] <Fernando12> go back then 01[21:51] <Fernando12> no point leaving really [21:51] <Xerxer> CnG and SF will never fight. 01[21:51] <Fernando12> things are slow to change 01[21:51] <Fernando12> their scared of losing power [21:51] <Xerxer> Their is an SF FA policy in the works. [21:52] <Xerxer> Called 'Getting the hooks in'. 01[21:52] <Fernando12> both can claim it 01[21:52] <Fernando12> on who? [21:52] <Xerxer> Basically ever SF alliance is supposed to grab another CnG alliance and treaty them, just to ensure nothing happens. [21:52] <Xerxer> every* 01[21:52] <Fernando12> SF is larger 01[21:53] <Fernando12> MK, ODN, Athens... 01[21:53] <Fernando12> the rest of CnG is worthless 01[21:53] <Fernando12> CnG is a paper tiger on its own 01[21:55] <Fernando12> NPO lasted ages....this !@#$ will too [21:55] <Xerxer> NPO won't let this last ages. 01[21:55] <Fernando12> NPO cant do a thing 01[21:55] <Fernando12> its allies are !@#$ [21:55] <Xerxer> People fear them. 01[21:56] <Fernando12> no they dont [21:56] <Xerxer> They should. 01[21:56] <Fernando12> they have no treaties to pull off a war [21:56] <Xerxer> Not yet. 01[21:56] <Fernando12> they have retards for allies 01[21:56] <Fernando12> i doubt they get new treaties 01[21:56] <Fernando12> significant ones [21:57] <Xerxer> Wanna know a game changer? 01[21:57] <Fernando12> what that? [21:57] <Xerxer> RoK has been seriously considering leaving SF for a while. 01[21:57] <Fernando12> for what? [21:57] <Xerxer> For a difference in goals. [21:58] <Xerxer> Oh, and SF = FARK, RoK, and GOD. 01[21:58] <Fernando12> difference? [21:58] <Xerxer> The rest is !@#$. [21:58] <Xerxer> Yeah, RoK wants to play up the hegemony ideals; wreck alliances and dictate policy. [21:58] <Xerxer> FARK and the like wish to just rule silently. [21:58] <Xerxer> Their past kinda forces it... 01[21:58] <Fernando12> they leave SF and they won't dictate anything 01[21:59] <Fernando12> it would cause them isolation [21:59] <Xerxer> Not true. [21:59] <Xerxer> Trust me, it's been considered at length. [22:00] <Xerxer> Without SF, they are at a significantly lower position as far as coalition firepower. 01[22:00] <Fernando12> Rok non-SF treaties wont be enough for it to dictate [22:00] <Xerxer> However, look at their treaties outside SF. [22:00] <Xerxer> Really? 01[22:00] <Fernando12> GO? 01[22:00] <Fernando12> need to see them in action [22:00] <Xerxer> MK, Sparta, VE, and Polaris? 01[22:00] <Fernando12> VE GOD 01[22:01] <Fernando12> MK GOD 01[22:01] <Fernando12> so 01[22:01] <Fernando12> back to them not influencing.... 01[22:01] <Fernando12> MK Polaris 01[22:02] <Fernando12> its sounds nice in the back channels prolly....but if they do it, reality will be they are nothing without SF [22:02] <Xerxer> And SF are nothing without RoK. [22:03] <Xerxer> Hoo calls the shots right now. [22:03] <Xerxer> He leaves, who calls them now, Xiphosis? [22:03] <Xerxer> He's a hot head. 01[22:03] <Fernando12> he can lead it 01[22:03] <Fernando12> once he's in charge he would be different [22:04] <Xerxer> I can name three separate occasions in the past 2 months we've had a diplomatic crisis, on the verge of war, etc, all because Xiph got pissed. 01[22:04] <Fernando12> war is good [22:04] <Xerxer> Hoo talked him off the ledge, or he came to his senses, but he almost started some wars that SF would have some real trouble in. 01[22:04] <Fernando12> it would actually help seal SF's power [22:04] <Xerxer> I don't want to see SF's power sealed up. 01[22:05] <Fernando12> lol 01[22:05] <Fernando12> you should 01[22:05] <Fernando12> you were SF [22:05] <Xerxer> How come? [22:05] <Xerxer> Yeah, funny thing about that... [22:05] <Xerxer> SF during Karma were it's glory days. [22:06] <Xerxer> SF, and RoK in particular have been the hero long enough to see themselves become the villain. [22:06] <Xerxer> (To quote batman...) 01[22:06] <Fernando12> it happens [22:06] <Xerxer> Entirety of NSO war? Hoo got angry, hit the red button. [22:06] <Xerxer> Diplomatic talks WERE taking place. 01[22:07] <Fernando12> we know this 01[22:07] <Fernando12> its no secret [22:07] <Xerxer> Our FA staff was told to cease all communications. [22:07] <Xerxer> We were told to hide from NSO, to get out of public channels, to provide them with NO chance to rectify the situation. 01[22:07] <Fernando12> if i were in Hoo's position....there would be alot more wars [22:07] <Xerxer> That was a direct order from our Emperor. 01[22:07] <Fernando12> i would do the dame 01[22:08] <Fernando12> *same 01[22:08] <Fernando12> i would like to roll some alliances 01[22:08] <Fernando12> but, i dont have that power [22:08] <Xerxer> Of course you would. [22:08] <Xerxer> There's a reason for that... 01[22:08] <Fernando12> if i did we'd have a war every other month [/quote] The stagnation and the power concentration in just a few people is what drives nations to oblivion. Many nations have the need to matter more than others. They need to know that someday it could be their nation leading the alliance and the world. The realization that it's highly unlikely to happen makes many nations choose oblivion. That's my take on things. Feel free to comment or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacapo Saladin Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) Moral of the story is never talk to Fernando unless you want it on the OWF. Edited October 1, 2010 by Jacapo Saladin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biazt Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 It's been like this in CN from day one. I thought everyone knew this already? This isn't surprising in the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xoindotnler Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) You asked Hoo for permission first ? Edited October 1, 2010 by xoindotnler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 Problem is: what's the answer? I have some ideas for a new alliance that would be completely opposed to the current stagnation, but I doubt a critical mass would be willing to join up. Not to mentioned we'd probably get rolled within weeks. So it's just a dream for the time being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 You literally presented no new information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakira Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) who am i Edited October 3, 2010 by C Mos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando12 Posted October 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1285974054' post='2471561'] Problem is: what's the answer? I have some ideas for a new alliance that would be completely opposed to the current stagnation, but I doubt a critical mass would be willing to join up. Not to mentioned we'd probably get rolled within weeks. So it's just a dream for the time being. [/quote] If you don't tie yourself to the web you will get rolled. What will cure stagnation? Alliances ripping themselves away from the treaty web and forming a true separate side. Right now we have 2 sides, one strong and one weak. A third or fourth side would shake things up dramatically. It could give nations a reason to exist because they could potentially be in alliances that could possibly have an influence in world affairs. Or, stagnation would set in again as the 4 sides slowly treaty each other again to ensure nothing happens...similar to what Xerxer was saying in the logs. Edited October 1, 2010 by Fernando12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorgrum Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 Xerxer and i have served in a few alliances together, ROK was one of them and we were both gov. This is a bad show Xerxer and you should know better, there is an implied code when your in gov and particularly in FA. You get to see data other people dont and you keep it in house. Having left rok on not so good of terms myself I cant really find anything bad to say about Hoo or ROK. We all have logs though fernando, being in gov gives you a decent venue to obtain information and xerxer hasnt given you much to play with but he gave you enough to what I would consider a breech of gov ettiquette. Like I said I didnt leave on great terms either but you wont get this kind of crap from me, poor show here and let it be a lesson to those who are in gov. You might leave on bad terms, but part of the deal is when you in gov your being trusted with information and examples like this show you cant be. Good luck out there though Xerxer, just let it go like I did and stop giving a !@#$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midkn1ght Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote]<Xerxer> Yeah, RoK wants to play up the hegemony ideals; wreck alliances and dictate policy. ~ <Xerxer> I can name three separate occasions in the past 2 months we've had a diplomatic crisis, on the verge of war, etc, all because Xiph got pissed. <Xerxer> Hoo talked him off the ledge, or he came to his senses, but he almost started some wars that SF would have some real trouble in.[/quote] So wait, you say Hoo wants to leave SF to start wars, wreck stuff, and go nuts? But damn that Xiph, they're going to leave SF because he wants to do the same thing, lol? And besides it was only one time Xiph got mad =P C'mon man at least the secret aid stuff was entertaining, keep trying though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilrow Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='xoindotnler' timestamp='1285973949' post='2471559'] You asked Hoo for permission first :((? [/quote] Hoo's word is law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 Everyone forgets we're in SF for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromp Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote]Some nations realize that power is concentrated in just a few people, probably less than 25 people in all of Bob control when anything happens. 25 is probably too generous a number. Many that have gone to oblivion have probably realized that the chances of them being the Archons, the Hoos, the AlmightGrubs, the Xiphosis, the Moldavi, the etc...are 1 in a billion? So why continue? [/quote] You continue because you feel you can do better. Because you feel like this world order isn't the one you have in mind. Because you want to leave your mark on this world. This topic shows why you will never be in a position of any influence. Seriously, you complain too much, and clearly lack the capabilities to change the status quo, ie. [i]to be a leader[/i]. No position at the top is ever given, it has to be earned. The people you mention have alltogether most likely done more for this world than those 10k who left it. To solely blame 'those at the top' for the decline in number of nations on this world is ludicrous. It has been this way for nearly 2 years now? If you are really so hungry for power, do something with this ambition of yours. You think this topic is going to change anything at all? Then I can assure you, it will not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KainIIIC Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1285974142' post='2471563'] You literally presented no new information. [/quote] exactly. What's new again? SF are mostly cut from the same cloth as the so-called "hegemony" that they sought to displace, but were once banner-riders under. Hoo is the strongest figure of the same things Karma derided NPO for, and wants to begin cycles of curbstomps once again (he has already done so twice). Duh, in the NSO war, "Diplomacy" was removed from RoK's vocabulary. SF are trying to keep C&G from stopping it by allying with it. No new information there. Though I suppose the info about Hoo wanting to leave SF is a bit new to me, but I guess you just have to hope for it so that Xiph gets mad and wars C&G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando12 Posted October 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1285974626' post='2471575'] Everyone forgets we're in SF for some reason. [/quote] People forget and I am honestly not trying to insult you but it will sound like an insult...you don't matter really because your alliance doesn't do anything to piss anyone off. Your alliance merely provides the nations for others to dictate what they want to do. Your alliance's inability or lack of ambition contributes to the stagnation of Bob. You do enough to exist and maintain treaties and entertain your people on your forums and IRC so they stay with your alliance...but you don't shape the politics of Bob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alterego Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 If our only hope for war is getting Xiphosis in control of SF then the sooner it happens the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinpah Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 30k during Karma? That sounds a bit high Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Moon Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285974428' post='2471566'] If you don't tie yourself to the web you will get rolled. What will cure stagnation? Alliances ripping themselves away from the treaty web and forming a true separate side. Right now we have 2 sides, one strong and one weak. A third or fourth side would shake things up dramatically. It could give nations a reason to exist because they could potentially be in alliances that could possibly have an influence in world affairs. Or, stagnation would set in again as the 4 sides slowly treaty each other again to ensure nothing happens...similar to what Xerxer was saying in the logs. [/quote] That'd be great, but there are a few crucial problems preventing it from happening: 1) Inertia. What alliance is willing to make such a drastic move? We all saw what happened to Gramlins. 2) Many treaties are based on (OOC: OOC) friendship and relationships, even if the ties are limiting. Who's going to ditch all their friends to go independent? And who will trust an alliance that's that capricious? 3) Who are the other independents who that alliance could treaty with to form the 3rd side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcturus Jefferson Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote][21:58] <Xerxer> Oh, and [b]SF = FARK,[/b] RoK, and GOD. 01[21:58] <Fernando12> difference? [21:58] <Xerxer> The rest is !@#$. [21:58] <Xerxer> Yeah, RoK wants to play up the hegemony ideals; wreck alliances and dictate policy. [21:58] <Xerxer> [b]FARK and the like wish to just rule silently.[/b] [21:58] <Xerxer> Their past kinda forces it...[/quote] This is probably my favorite part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor Noldorin Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 I learned absolutely nothing new in this. [quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1285974626' post='2471575'] Everyone forgets we're in SF for some reason. [/quote] I've always seen you guys and Fark as the level headed ones. Also, Xipho for SF Overlord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285974875' post='2471584'] [b]you don't matter really because your alliance doesn't do anything to piss anyone off[/b] [/quote] Oh my god you're trying to kill me, I'm still laughing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando12 Posted October 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Prodigal Moon' timestamp='1285975168' post='2471598'] That'd be great, but there are a few crucial problems preventing it from happening: 1) Inertia. What alliance is willing to make such a drastic move? We all saw what happened to Gramlins. 2) Many treaties are based on (OOC: OOC) friendship and relationships, even if the ties are limiting. Who's going to ditch all their friends to go independent? And who will trust an alliance that's that capricious? 3) Who are the other independents who that alliance could treaty with to form the 3rd side? [/quote] Bob Janova's treaty compendium could give some clues to your 3rd question. But would the leaders of those alliances that have many common treaties be courageous enough to break out on their own to forum a 3rd side? Unlikely, because we have too many "leaders" that are satisfied with the status quo. Edited October 1, 2010 by Fernando12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
im317 Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285973345' post='2471544']Some nations realize that power is concentrated in just a few people, probably less than 25 people in all of Bob control when anything happens. 25 is probably too generous a number. Many that have gone to oblivion have probably realized that the chances of them being the Archons, the Hoos, the AlmightGrubs, the Xiphosis, the Moldavi, the etc...are 1 in a billion? So why continue?[/quote] im going to be generous here and use 250,000. so lets say that a grand total of 250,000 different people(read as 2,500,000 if it makes you feel better) have been on Bob at some time. how does that make the odds of being the only person to do anything on Bob 1 in 1,000,000,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fernando12 Posted October 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 [quote name='im317' timestamp='1285975652' post='2471614'] im going to be generous here and use 250,000. so lets say that a grand total of 250,000 different people(read as 2,500,000 if it makes you feel better) have been on Bob at some time. how does that make the odds of being the only person to do anything on Bob 1 in 1,000,000,000? [/quote] Maybe read the entire OP and follow the conversation instead of making silly smart ass comments. You know what I meant and that is that it is more likely that most of us will never do anything to matter much on Bob so some choose leave, some of us stay - a large portions is leaving is what is at issue and what the causes of their departure was - I gave my take in the OP, would you care to give your take or continue being a smarty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogaden Posted October 1, 2010 Report Share Posted October 1, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Fernando12' timestamp='1285976010' post='2471619'] Maybe read the entire OP and follow the conversation instead of making silly smart ass comments. You know what I meant and that is that it is more likely that most of us will never do anything to matter much on Bob so some choose leave, some of us stay - a large portions is leaving is what is at issue and what the causes of their departure was - I gave my take in the OP, would you care to give your take or continue being a smarty? [/quote] I'm part of the problem, I've been involved in stopping two SF-C&G wars when I was head of FA for RIA Hate me Edited October 1, 2010 by James Dahl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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