Minus 10k since Karma and possible reasons why...

[Vanilla Napalm]

i didn't read the OP, but i am here to vocalise my support for rok, as i imagine it shall please Hoo:
o/ rok

[SpoiL]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285990995' post='2471887']
Edit: Assuming that isn't what you're aiming for. If it is I apologize.
[/quote]

I know you aren't actually trying to insult RoK's government. I'm not that dense. What I am saying is that someone saying what Xerxer said is unfounded because his position as MoFA is a 'low' one is bull.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1285985818' post='2471793']
It's lower gov considering that spot in RoK gets you nowhere near any of the higher backchannels.
[/quote]
Hilariously, the logdump indicates that he agrees with you, as he thinks the higher backchannel is Hoo's query screen.

[Thorgrum]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285990436' post='2471880']
You are trying to discredit Xerxer because he's leaked sensitive info relative to you and yours.[/quote]

There wasnt anything sensative in his conversation with Fernando, a lot of supposition and inference yes, but im certain had he wanted to Xerxer could have leaked much worse then this

[quote]You do this by belittling the government position he held as being one of insignificance, uninformed, irrelevant, inconsequential, etc (Hope those words were big enough for you).[/quote]

He didnt belittle, he actually made an accurate portrayl of the position and the person who held it at the time.

[quote] And if the MoFA doesn't know, surely the little RoKlings are all the more clueless.[/quote]

Now that your on scene there is little doubt they will move toward the light.

[Delta1212]

This is hilarious on many levels.

[Aurion]

[quote name='SpoiL' timestamp='1285992165' post='2471908']
I know you aren't actually trying to insult RoK's government. I'm not that dense. What I am saying is that someone saying what Xerxer said is unfounded because his position as MoFA is a 'low' one is bull.
[/quote]

He wasn't a Delegate, so he certainly wasn't at the top of that chain.

It's a interesting and slightly crazy discussion, but that's about it. The problem I have is that it's being presented as hard fact, and there are people saying basically "Well he was Rok's MoFA it [i]must be right![/i]"

[quote name='Haflinger' timestamp='1285993156' post='2471922']
Hilariously, the logdump indicates that he agrees with you, as he thinks the higher backchannel is Hoo's query screen.
[/quote]

It's Hoo's world, we're all just living in it.

[Krunk the Great]

Who are you again?

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1285994119' post='2471936']
He wasn't a Delegate, so he certainly wasn't at the top of that chain.

It's a interesting and slightly crazy discussion, but that's about it. The problem I have is that it's being presented as hard fact, and there are people saying basically "Well he was Rok's MoFA it [i]must be right![/i]"
[/quote]

I don't think SpoiL was ever claiming that he was at the top of the food chain, as if he was Hoo's right-hand man. But "low-level government official" also kinda suggests he's some kind of entry-level diplomat or recruiter, a deputy at best. Maybe RoK works a bit differently, but even if there's a ruling upper council, a MoFA position still wouldn't be considered "low-level" and would contain a fairly larger degree of the inside workings and FA-policy of RoK than the aforementioned implied peon position.

[quote]It's Hoo's world, we're all just living in it.
[/quote]

And don't forget, we can always trust Hoo's word

[Banksy]

Some alliances, get this, have a different structure to others, and so what may appear to be 'high gov' in one alliance isn't in another.

~wow~

[James I]

Did you ask Hoo if you could post this?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1286000160' post='2472023']
I don't think SpoiL was ever claiming that he was at the top of the food chain, as if he was Hoo's right-hand man. But "low-level government official" also kinda suggests he's some kind of entry-level diplomat or recruiter, a deputy at best. Maybe RoK works a bit differently, but even if there's a ruling upper council, a MoFA position still wouldn't be considered "low-level" and would contain a fairly larger degree of the inside workings and FA-policy of RoK than the aforementioned implied peon position.
[/quote]
When I was allied to RoK, the MoFA was basically just a diplomat organizer; he made sure embassies got staffed and the like. Really not what you expect given the lofty title.

[thaone]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1286000160' post='2472023']
I don't think SpoiL was ever claiming that he was at the top of the food chain, as if he was Hoo's right-hand man. But "low-level government official" also kinda suggests he's some kind of entry-level diplomat or recruiter, a deputy at best. Maybe RoK works a bit differently, but even if there's a ruling upper council, a MoFA position still wouldn't be considered "low-level" and would contain a fairly larger degree of the inside workings and FA-policy of RoK than the aforementioned implied peon position.
[/quote]

The Sith master of Lies position could be considered as your MoFA, nobody is seeing that position as high gov. I would probably classify it as middle government, why couldn't that be the same over at RoK?

[Haflinger]

[quote name='thaone' timestamp='1286025483' post='2472135']
The Sith master of Lies position could be considered as your MoFA, nobody is seeing that position as high gov. I would probably classify it as middle government, why couldn't that be the same over at RoK?
[/quote]
I've been allied to both. The RoK MoFA is really more like a marauder-level position. Note that currently there is no Master of Lies.

[pezstar]

Plenty of things happen without the approval of an "elite few". There are several alliances out there whom I can't even imagine seeking permission to do things.

[The MVP]

[quote name='Denial' timestamp='1285985529' post='2471790']
It's also common practice against those who spew a whole load of rubbish.
[/quote]

Your definition of rubbish is anyone who speaks juxtaposed to your position. It's a joke, really. I mean find a place where everyone must and has to agree with you and then [i]maybe[/i] you'll be satisfied without kicking and screaming in every topic opened up.

What a joke.

Edited October 2, 2010 by The MVP

[Alfred von Tirpitz]

[quote name='KainIIIC' timestamp='1286000160' post='2472023']
I don't think SpoiL was ever claiming that he was at the top of the food chain, as if he was Hoo's right-hand man. But "low-level government official" also kinda suggests he's some kind of entry-level diplomat or recruiter, a deputy at best. Maybe RoK works a bit differently, but even if there's a ruling upper council, a MoFA position still wouldn't be considered "low-level" and would contain a fairly larger degree of the inside workings and FA-policy of RoK than the aforementioned implied peon position.
[/quote]

Kain, a Ragnarok LoFA, is the guy that is in charge of sending diplomats to other alliances. Ensuring that the visiting diplomats are welcomed, and otherwise not left to get bored. That is about it. The only LoFA that came close to ascending beyond this role is now a member of the Ruling Council, and should have been there to begin with. A typical LoFA at Ragnarok is not in anyway privy to the actual FA as the world at large thinks of FA. That is the way it has been and that is the way RoK prefers it. To say that Xerxer would have had access to planning or so called machinations related to constructing a war, is a gross miss-statement.

Hell I was the diplomat to NSO from Ragnarok, and i was merrily posting on their boards and making artwork for their members from time to time right upto the day the war was declared, no one, ever told me to cease and desist. I and Jekalle both were active there on those boards, both of us former RoK RC members, we would hear of stuff before Xerxer if anything was being planned, we did not. What Xerxer most likely got told was the stock "It is being handled, don't meddle" or a variation of that.

So to recap, no, the LoFA has no access to higher government functions or info.

[KingEd]

[quote name='Shinpah' timestamp='1285975013' post='2471590']
30k during Karma?

That sounds a bit high
[/quote]

I think it was lower than that, maybe 28k nations right before April of 2009.

[quote name='James Dahl' timestamp='1285976096' post='2471621']
I'm part of the problem, I've been involved in stopping two SF-C&G wars when I was head of FA for RIA

Hate me
[/quote]

Good man.


As for the OP:

1) We already know the elite few control where the game goes. (Someone invite me to these backchannels, I want to be the "elite" few.) #world was fun but I want a taste of this sides "heg". lol

2) We already know the game is in a stagnant environment. However, those in power are satisfied with it. So yeah...I'll enjoy my growth until the "elite" dictate otherwise.

[jer]

<Xerxer> There is no such thing as independence at a personal, or even an alliance level.

Just wanted to take issue with this. There is plenty of scope for independence, but you need to be willing to sacrifice some of your security for it. I think your problem is essentially that you aren't willing to take independence (or even recognise the possibility of it existing) unless it's handed to you on a safety plate, which begs the question: do you really want it?

Most rulers seem to be happy being cocooned in the safety of an alliance, without having to make the every day decisions necessary for survival and with safety in numbers, and I think that you are the same. Your barrier to independence is presumably the same as everyone else's: the fact that your nation won't grow as large as an independent one as it would do otherwise, because of the increased threat and hostility that you will face. But that isn't really a barrier at all, it's just a negative consequence - a small price to pay for independence, perhaps. Maybe you assign such importance to nation growth that this consequence makes independence not worth it in your mind, or maybe you don't even recognise independence without safety, but that's your problem. It's your lack of courage that denies you independence, not the "elite few".

I reckon if more rulers took the chance and had a good shot at being truly independent, we might see more consideration given to the subject by alliance leaders in order to placate their rulers' needs to have a say in the large-scale decision making that affects their own individual nations, because it's clearly not in their interests to have their nations leaving in droves in favour of a more individually nourishing state of anarchy. The good people of the Terrorists alliance are an example of how independence can be achieved if you are willing to forego traditional nation development, and with forward planning and preparation you can even develop your nation in a way so as to ensure that you have full independence without such a dramatic loss of security (with the addition, for example, of nuclear weapons and a big pot of dongs).

If tens or perhaps even hundreds of people expressed a desire for more input into the decisions that shape their nation and the world affairs that affect it (and by this I mean the big defining decisions made by the world's significant alliances, not the faux independence that you get by being a leader in a micro), and if that desire manifested itself into a state of anarchy with many people enjoying their independence to the detriment of the current establishment, we might see more consideration and thought going in to the independent desires of the individual ruler. For now though most people seem to be happy with the way things are, so there's no need for any change in the way the world works.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Aimee Mann

[Bob Janova]

[quote]Your definition of rubbish is anyone who speaks [b]juxtaposed[/b] to your position[/quote]
Using big words doesn't make you look clever if you don't know what they mean.

[The MVP]

[quote name='Bob Janova' timestamp='1286031442' post='2472185']
Using big words doesn't make you look clever if you don't know what they mean.
[/quote]

Neither does crying about a broken and tattered alliance saying you're the greatest thing to ever happen when all you do is talk and do little else.

[Captain Flinders]

[quote]01[17:14] <Fernando12> if i were NoR, I'd inform allies that war is necessary and the reasons...declare war, activate treaties, in a way force allies to move...i wouldn't ask if we go will you go....i'm going and i'm going to do the best i can to force allies along[/quote]

Given this insight, I'm amazingly thankful you're not running our government for I doubt we'd last very long. Maybe you were high enough in the world to become disenchanted but not high enough to know this, but Nordreich doesn't need to "force" our allies to do anything. Our allies, every single one of them, have given us unending support in all areas at all time. And we extend them the same. This is how allies work, at least, how they work for Nordreich.

You really must not have been as much in the loop as you thought you were if you thought Nordreich asked permission fro RoK to go to war.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Captain Flinders

[Melutar]

People like Hoo only have power because people let them. If people didn't ask and just went ahead and did what they wanted they'd see how many of their treatied allies are their real allies.

[KainIIIC]

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1286026452' post='2472141']
Kain, a Ragnarok LoFA, is the guy that is in charge of sending diplomats to other alliances. Ensuring that the visiting diplomats are welcomed, and otherwise not left to get bored. That is about it. The only LoFA that came close to ascending beyond this role is now a member of the Ruling Council, and should have been there to begin with. A typical LoFA at Ragnarok is not in anyway privy to the actual FA as the world at large thinks of FA. That is the way it has been and that is the way RoK prefers it. To say that Xerxer would have had access to planning or so called machinations related to constructing a war, is a gross miss-statement.

Hell I was the diplomat to NSO from Ragnarok, and i was merrily posting on their boards and making artwork for their members from time to time right upto the day the war was declared, no one, ever told me to cease and desist. I and Jekalle both were active there on those boards, both of us former RoK RC members, we would hear of stuff before Xerxer if anything was being planned, we did not. What Xerxer most likely got told was the stock "It is being handled, don't meddle" or a variation of that.

So to recap, no, the LoFA has no access to higher government functions or info.
[/quote]

I stand corrected. I never suggested they had top access to gov't info, but I kinda expected the LoFA to be higher than a glorified diplomat, a peon if you will. I supposed RoK is really centralized around Hoo even more than I thought (something Xerxer himself claimed).

[The MVP]

[quote name='Melutar' timestamp='1286044236' post='2472356']
People like Hoo only have power because people let them. If people didn't ask and just went ahead and did what they wanted they'd see how many of their treatied allies are their real allies.
[/quote]

I know why I liked you as my MoFA at the time. People don't do what they want to do, people only do what you let them do.

[Duke Nukem]

From a former RoK'kers point of view I can tell you personally that Hoo has all the power. Hoo has his select few who he consults with and thats it. The rest of RoK is just his peons and lower gov to do the rest of the jobs that he doesn't want to do.