The New Grämlins

[Cormalek]

Good, no-one beat me to it, and dvdcchn should distract people from what I went for...

That was really great read, amad123!

[img]http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/2895/radiofreegresports.png[/img]

Collective forces of IRON, DAWN and Ramirus are ending Gre slaughter, I see?
I only wish this would stop before so many Grämlins went down...

[amad123]

[quote name='Cormalek' date='23 April 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1272051492' post='2272238']
That was really great read, amad123![/quote]

Thanks,

it was a little long winded but it's pretty basically common sense. That opinion was mine and not that of DAWN's or IRON. While I personally have no desire to end the war quickly. (And do what? Pay bills, collect taxes and pay reps) I'd rather beat up on Gramlin's for the next year or so and then retire from the game with feeling like I accomplished something. I do realize that saner heads (not mine that's for sure) may prevail and a white peace could be declared at any time. Sucks sometimes to be in a democratic alliance and have to go along with the majority. But anyone who thinks that I would consider surrender when we can kick the crap out of Gre instead is not thinking clearly. Beating the crap out of Gre is way more appealing than surrendering. If anyone thinks otherwise have I got an alliance for you to join, pm me for details.

Edited April 23, 2010 by amad123

[Omas Nams]

[quote name='amad123' date='23 April 2010 - 06:41 PM' timestamp='1272044500' post='2272144']We actually consider them more like a bad bunch of rogues then a problem alliance. [/quote]

Whilst talking about this view of being a 'group of rogues' rather than an alliance, and about setting horrible game precedents. Fancy pointing out the DAWN declaration of war?

[Wad of Lint]

[quote name='dvdcchn' date='23 April 2010 - 03:00 PM' timestamp='1272049196' post='2272213']
yes we have wonderful allies, a big thank you to TORN and NSO as well as everyone else who has shown us support. as do you. do you know how many times i get aqua allainces asking us to surrender, informing me they have been asked by ram to persuade us to surrender. well ram here is your lesson, i heard you are big on teaching lessons, when you are ready to end your arrogance, disrespect, and just plain ignorance, you know where the IRON council stands. we will accept you personally coming to us with your acceptance of white peace ( to honor your codex of no paper) and end hostilities, no questions asked. until then may admin have mercy on your allaince, similar to what we have shown your nations surrendering to us.
[/quote]

I support this statement.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Omas Nams' date='23 April 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1272054385' post='2272303']
Whilst talking about this view of being a 'group of rogues' rather than an alliance, and about setting horrible game precedents. Fancy pointing out the DAWN declaration of war?
[/quote]

you can talk about your paperless whatever it is, all you want Omas, but Grämlins were just as much bandwagoners, if not more so, than DAWN was. DAWN had a treaty with IRON that dictated defensive measures. they honored those measures so honestly calling them bandwagoners is just annoying. Gremlins hit IRON when IRON was bogged down by several alliances already. they did so with no treaty since the only treaty ya'll got is with MHA. you came in on the winning side. DAWN was being hit by a few alliances when they declared on Gremlins. honestly it takes much more cajones to do what DAWN did than to do what Gremlins did. so i would suggest just ending this line of argument as it only points out the massive and blatant hypocrisy that is fast becoming Gremlins.

[Omas Nams]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='23 April 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1272056510' post='2272340']
you can talk about your paperless whatever it is, all you want Omas, but Grämlins were just as much bandwagoners, if not more so, than DAWN was. DAWN had a treaty with IRON that dictated defensive measures. they honored those measures so honestly calling them bandwagoners is just annoying. Gremlins hit IRON when IRON was bogged down by several alliances already. they did so with no treaty since the only treaty ya'll got is with MHA. you came in on the winning side. DAWN was being hit by a few alliances when they declared on Gremlins. honestly it takes much more cajones to do what DAWN did than to do what Gremlins did. so i would suggest just ending this line of argument as it only points out the massive and blatant hypocrisy that is fast becoming Gremlins.
[/quote]

Doch I'm not calling them bandwagoners. They have as much right as we did to join this war however, people are talking about horrible game precedents and surely attacking an alliance without an official declaration is one of those ? Seeing as an official declaration has been standard procedure within the game since it's inception.

[franciscus]

Omas, a lot of things have been "proper procedure" in this game. Like not bandwagoning, for instance. Back when the paperless route was called "bandwagon". But Gre set a precedent and went in the paperless route. Please note no DAWN official has referred to Gre as bandwagonners.
Now, I'll try to explain this once and for all:
[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=69933"]Our treaty with IRON[/url] says "Any declaration of war upon a member of either signatory is considered an act of aggression to the undersigned signatories.". You attacked IRON, thus you attacked us. Why on Admin's name would we issue a DoW on an alliance that attacked us, per our treaty?

[dvdcchn]

[quote name='Omas Nams' date='23 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1272056861' post='2272344']
Doch I'm not calling them bandwagoners. They have as much right as we did to join this war however, people are talking about horrible game precedents and surely attacking an alliance without an official declaration is one of those ? Seeing as an official declaration has been standard procedure within the game since it's inception.
[/quote]


hey you left feild, come back! as for the decleration into the wider war, are you refering to [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=79442&st=0&p=2138748&#entry2138748"]this?[/url] or against the ramlins? (and yes, i know it was poorly written, we learned that lesson already) since no one in a coalition has ever "shifted down" to help a partner right? i know it happened to me a few times in karma. but i guess you wanted to show another example of diversions. bravo

back on topic though, your allaince is falling apart, IRON will not cave to the term your master has decreed, something universally agreed to as lunacy, and most ramlins cannot even define. its to the point he has to defend his codex by saying "uncoditional surrender is not a peace term, but something that occurs before peace?" does that really make sense to you in your heart of hearts?

even if it takes tearing you down one at a time, will do it, our resolve is stout. you had your chance at taking reps for an agressive war, that time has past, you will accept the white peace offered, or be dragged down with everything we have. enjoy your weekend.

Edited April 23, 2010 by dvdcchn

[Corinan]

[quote name='Shamshir' date='23 April 2010 - 11:28 AM' timestamp='1272036479' post='2272055']
Hope you liked my Haiku
[/quote]

Probably the best reply I got, yeah.

[Haflinger]

[quote name='Omas Nams' date='23 April 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1272056861' post='2272344']
Doch I'm not calling them bandwagoners. They have as much right as we did to join this war however, people are talking about horrible game precedents and surely attacking an alliance without an official declaration is one of those ? Seeing as an official declaration has been standard procedure within the game since it's inception.
[/quote]
Uhh.... no. lol.

Good god I whined enough when FOK hit us in Karma without a declaration. Half the wars in Karma went declaration-free. That's been an accepted standard for a while.

[Bob Janova]

Not formally declaring (or recognising hostilities) is a slight [i]faux pas[/i], I agree, but it's not up there on the same level of bad precedent as unconditional surrender. It's been done before and it'll be done again when the war is inevitable and known in advance as a result of treaties (as DAWN's war on you guys is).

[Arcades057]

Man oh man, if I were in IRON or DAWN high command I would be smacking some people in their figurative heads right about now for all this leaking of OPSEC material. Just a suggestion: Stop telling the world what you are planning to do.

[Dochartaigh]

[quote name='Omas Nams' date='23 April 2010 - 04:07 PM' timestamp='1272056861' post='2272344']
Doch I'm not calling them bandwagoners. They have as much right as we did to join this war however, people are talking about horrible game precedents and surely attacking an alliance without an official declaration is one of those ? Seeing as an official declaration has been standard procedure within the game since it's inception.
[/quote]

yes and no. several times before this, alliances have not posted DoWs. comparing DAWN's not posting of a DoW to the precedent of unconditional surrender is just ridiculous and one of the hugest stretches i have ever seen during my time in CN. it would be like stating an alliance asking for 1k tech reps from an alliance with 100k tech and one asking for viceroyship are equally bad. sorry but not even remotely close to being equal.

[Nizzle]

It's hilarious watching the downfall of gRAMlins through this thread.

edit:

GO GO GREMLIN PROPAGANDA!

we need some pics of Baghdad Bob amirite

Edited April 24, 2010 by Nizzle

[Lennox]

[quote name='Nizzle' date='24 April 2010 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1272135005' post='2273215']
It's hilarious watching the downfall of gRAMlins through this thread.

edit:

GO GO GREMLIN PROPAGANDA!

we need some pics of Baghdad Bob amirite
[/quote]

It would be better seeing Sparta burn.

[SirWilliam]

[quote name='Mussolandia' date='23 April 2010 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1271996555' post='2271642']
Well, considering how much you guys brag about our insolent, leeching selves being under your protection back then, you should also take credit for it. Enabler.
[/quote]

Enabler? Shucks, I sure am a softie for the sweet talk.

We were lamenting, not bragging, however...

[Sephiroth]

It wouldn't surprise me if Gremlins are going for a set amount of damage and then accepting white peace when they are done. They probably figure most of the bad PR will go away once they white peace since people have short term memories for the most part. I doubt Gremlins actually expect anyone to accept unconditional surrender, but they probably still feel they can do more damage before peacing out.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Methrage

[Baldr]

If this continues very long, I don' think IRON and DAWN should give Gramlins white peace. Make Gramlins pay the reps that IRON/DAWN owe, plus a bit more to IRON/DAWN.

And while I don't expect it, I could see how IRON/DAWN could decide to just keep going until Gramlins agrees to unconditional surrender, and then force whatever they want on them. After all, Gramlins has already stated "We aren't asking for anything we wouldn't agree to ourselves" so they can hardly complain if IRON/DAWN demand unconditional surrender.

[Aeternos Astramora]

I like Baldr's idea.

[quote name='Lennox' date='24 April 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1272135817' post='2273230']
It would be better seeing Sparta burn.
[/quote]
I must say, I find it amusing how you randomly spite other alliances in this thread. Anything for Argent?

[SynthFG]

Well this looks completely locked in for the next couple of weeks,
Then 2 conclave positions will be up for election
I guess we'll see then whether the Gre membership really wants to continue with this

[Wes Walz Pants]

[quote name='Baldr' date='25 April 2010 - 03:52 AM' timestamp='1272181928' post='2274131']
[b]If this continues very long, I don' think IRON and DAWN should give Gramlins white peace. Make Gramlins pay the reps that IRON/DAWN owe, plus a bit more to IRON/DAWN.[/b]

And while I don't expect it, I could see how IRON/DAWN could decide to just keep going until Gramlins agrees to unconditional surrender, and then force whatever they want on them. After all, Gramlins has already stated "We aren't asking for anything we wouldn't agree to ourselves" so they can hardly complain if IRON/DAWN demand unconditional surrender.
[/quote]
No, IRON and DAWN have consistently said Gramlins is welcome to white peace at any time. I see no reason for that to change now or 3 months from now. The ball lies with those who continue to stand by and let Gramlins persecute this war for them. You'd like to think that CnG and SF would curb their reps somewhat in the face of this continuing aggression from their ally. I won't hold my breathe for that move though.

As for the upcoming elections, if Gramlins is as inactive at voting as they are with war fighting then Ram has nothing to worry about. Expect to see the Matthew PK PR machine back in full force to offer up the vote results as clear support for Ram's abhorrent tactics.

[Golan 1st]

[quote name='Calderone' date='25 April 2010 - 12:04 PM' timestamp='1272186229' post='2274165']
[b]No, IRON and DAWN have consistently said Gramlins is welcome to white peace at any time. I see no reason for that to change now or 3 months from now[/b]. The ball lies with those who continue to stand by and let Gramlins persecute this war for them. You'd like to think that CnG and SF would curb their reps somewhat in the face of this continuing aggression from their ally. I won't hold my breathe for that move though.[/quote]This is not correct. We are offering Gramlins white peace NOW. We give no guarantees that they can continue the war, cause us direct and indirect damages, and get the same deal whenever they please.
While we are not, in any time, going to demand anything of the kind of unconditional surrender, and it looks like we will respect Gramlin's codex in regard to peace terms more than they do, without legalistic acrobatics, when they get back to their senses, they may find that they missed the train of white peace (as they did with the reps they could get if they peaced with everybody at the time) and will have to pay for their crimes.

[Bob Janova]

There is no reason why IRON/DAWN shouldn't at the very least demand reps for the extra damage done to them by this joke of a policy if they manage to win the front.

[Baden-Württemberg]

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='25 April 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1272195489' post='2274216']
There is no reason why IRON/DAWN shouldn't at the very least demand reps for the extra damage done to them by this joke of a policy if they manage to win the front.
[/quote]

I agree. But Ramirus won't stop fighting since his ego doesn't allow surrendering. So, in the end, there won't be much left of Grämlins that is able to pay tech.

[AnCapistan]

It'd do IRON's PR some good to give Gremlins white peace.