Imperial Decree - New Polar

[Moridin]

[quote name='Caesius' date='06 February 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1265487708' post='2165004']
I *almost* have a hard time believing it was Grub who proposed that TOP and IRON attack C&G (preemptively, and without treaty connections at that) and not the other way around. TOP showed in the last war that they run the show for their side.

Then again, it's Grub, so I dunno! Either way, Polaris is an ally of our C&G brethren and have honored their treaty obligations (even if it was their disregarding of the spirit of such that led to the episode that started this all in the first place), so I suppose we should wish them luck in getting out of this ridiculous mess.
[/quote]

Grub did not propose the strike, but he did have knowledge of it and agree not to honor any treaties.

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='06 February 2010 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1265494343' post='2165201']
I can also state that Moridin and pezstar were both also vehemently against a pre-emptive strike on CnG based on every conversation that I observed which included them and the topic.
[/quote]

I lied. It was disappointing to see rumors spread so quickly since I believe only Grub and I knew of the strike on our side of things, while a few TOP and IRON people did as well on their side of things. I was hoping to nip the rumors in the bud, but clearly that didn't work.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Moridin

[Penkala]

[quote name='Fernando12' date='06 February 2010 - 03:06 AM' timestamp='1265443569' post='2163999']
CnG aren't the only 7 fighting here. Can CnG state for sure that all those that have come in to aid CnG want to continue this war. Or are they willing to take white peace. If they choose white peace and TOP and co. also will accept white peace, then it has to be said that this war is continuing by CnG's choice. CnG Leaders have an obligation to CnG, yes. But they also have to consider those that came in to fight on your side and what they want out of this war. If continuing is what they choose, then at least its their choice. If not then they have to consider peace now.
[/quote]


Hi. We're cool with war, too. Thanks for your concern, though.

[Hydro]

When Polaris surrenders, and I know Polaris will surrender with Grub at the helm, I sincerely hope the victors make a clause stating that Grub can't get back into government...ever. This is just beyond shameful.

[Kowalski]

Jeez NpO, was your moral crusade against \m/ really worth all this?

[Tsar Kalashnikov]

I'm glad I don't have "friends" like you Grub.

[Gurney Halleck]

I personally believe that the vitriol dished to Grub is probably misplaced. I think he did what he, with all his heart, felt was right. I think he was mistaken, but that's neither here nor there. He did it. [i]Alea iacta est[/i] and all that jazz.

On a larger scale, this war is hard to figure. Mistakes, tactically and diplomatically, by all involved. Allies are hard to keep tabs on, and the sides have a bit of a nebulous feel to them (am I the only one who has seen another DoW by alliance X on alliance Y and had to think on whether it was on "my" side or the other?).


This is great fun. I haven't seen a "this is boring" post in quite awhile.

[Banksy]

[quote name='shahenshah' date='07 February 2010 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1265491605' post='2165141']
Did you inform Polaris about the incoming attacks and to get them onto hold..you know..as you say in the spirit of 'trying to end the conflict'?
[/quote]
This doesn't make any sense. We didn't attack TOP

:confusedduckpokemon:

If you're suggesting that we knew TOP was going to attack us- why were we largely unprepared for the attack? There were war declaration from TOP with easily quotable lines such as "Why no tanks?" C&G was not expecting TOP to pre-emptively strike us.

C&G was in contact with Polar about reaching peace. We were happy when it occurred. Grub saw sense and everyone was happy to walk away from the war. But then TOP aggressively attacked us- an action which has lead to this announcement.

[Baldr]

[quote name='jamesdanaher' date='06 February 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1265503857' post='2165560']
C&G was in contact with Polar about reaching peace. We were happy when it occurred. Grub saw sense and everyone was happy to walk away from the war. But then TOP aggressively attacked us- an action which has lead to this announcement.
[/quote]

You've got that out of order.

TOP posted their DoW, and then "peace" was achieved soon after.

[merdesa]

[quote name='Dochartaigh' date='06 February 2010 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1265496676' post='2165254']
i am still quite amused at people coming to the conclusion that Polaris is trying to get on the "winning" side while they are still fighting on the "losing" side... Polaris is honoring treaties with MK and GR as well as NSO and is being beat on by several alliances. [/quote]


Maybe someones ego is just so big that they need to be both the winner [i]and[/i] the loser.

[Caliph]

[quote name='Baldr' date='06 February 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1265504088' post='2165571']
You've got that out of order.

TOP posted their DoW, and then "peace" was achieved soon after.
[/quote]
You are forgetting that peace talks came first, then TOP posted their DOW, then the white peace was announced on the forums.

We were in peace talks first, prior to TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN attacking C&G.

Edit: typo

Edited February 7, 2010 by Caliph

[Banksy]

[quote name='Baldr' date='07 February 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1265504088' post='2165571']
You've got that out of order.

TOP posted their DoW, and then "peace" was achieved soon after.
[/quote]

Nope- peace was achieved before TOP attacked. It was posted on the BBs afterwards.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Branimir' date='06 February 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1265482942' post='2164872']
No. Not really.

I suppose at this point, Ill just be honest and say what I did some time ago now, back in the halls of Francograd when we debated and wasted some time between rep payments: Grub is, indeed, the worst Emperor of an Order- ever.

My hope is, that incredible BR that exists in Polar-- dedicated soldiers of strong character and honorable-- will manage to somehow navigate through this and will be blessed with a more capable leader after Grub.

It doesn't matter where they end up, in retrospect where my alliance stands, just that in the future they are not a victim of such erratic outbursts from their leader. They do not deserve it.
[/quote]

Honestly, I bet if we go back to the topic where he declared on GOD, I bet we'll see you hailing NpO and Grub.

[silentkiller]

[quote name='Penkala' date='07 February 2010 - 01:25 AM' timestamp='1265505952' post='2165637']
Honestly, I bet if we go back to the topic where he declared on GOD, I bet we'll see you hailing NpO and Grub.
[/quote]

Your bet would be wrong.

[Ertyy]

[quote name='Penkala' date='06 February 2010 - 05:25 PM' timestamp='1265505952' post='2165637']
Honestly, I bet if we go back to the topic where he declared on GOD, I bet we'll see you hailing NpO and Grub.
[/quote]

I just went through the whole thread and his one post did not involve any hailing.

[Penkala]

[quote name='Ertyy' date='06 February 2010 - 08:34 PM' timestamp='1265506480' post='2165654']
I just went through the whole thread and his one post did not involve any hailing.
[/quote]

See? This is why I'm not a betting man I'd have thought he'd be supporting that DoW.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Penkala

[Archon]

A few points of clarity:

C&G is not looking for a "statistical advantage" over TOP so much as we're looking to make sure they're not really in a position to devastate us with a massive preemptive strike in the future. Given that they've demonstrated w/o hesitation that they will be more than happy to do this, we have no reason to believe they won't do it again...I mean, do you really expect us not to make sure we're not going to get ****ed again? That'd be pretty freaking stupid of us. Then again, I feel like the only people campaigning for this are on the side of the war against C&G, and seem to want to lay waste to us. How odd. And here we thought White Peace in Karma would set things off on the right foot or something.

You'd be foolish if you didn't believe MK hasn't been rendering all the assistance to Polaris that it can on its other fronts. We've been working tirelessly with the alliances involved, and while we're not really in a position to lend military support (and it has not been requested), we are nonetheless helping out however we can. Hopefully the fruits of those labors will be able to manifest themselves soon enough.

And lastly, before you seek to blame Grub for everything, none of this would have happened if TOP and IRON and company hadn't preemptively blitzed an uninvolved C&G. Yes, you can say "GRUB OKAYED IT!!!!" but that doesn't change the fact that TOP and company both devised and executed the plan. They claim we were going to enter against them - well, if you had activated our treaties, then yes, we would have honored our damn treaties and defended our allies. But outside of that obvious state (which should really be the status quo for any alliance on Bob), we were an uninvolved party. You brought this on yourselves, TOP and friends, and now you've made it clear through this TOPocalypse stunt that you wish to make it as brutal as possible.

This folly is of your making, not ours.

[kulomascovia]

[quote name='Caliph' date='06 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1265504873' post='2165595']
You are forgetting that peace talks came first, then TOP posted their DOW, then the white peace was announced on the forums.

We were in peace talks first, prior to TOP/IRON/TORN/DAWN attacking C&G.

Edit: typo
[/quote]

I'm sorry if I this has been answered before but did Grub notify TOP and IRON that they were in the middle of peace talks?

[jimbacher]

[quote name='TheNeverender' date='06 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1265508165' post='2165699']
A few points of clarity:

C&G is not looking for a "statistical advantage" over TOP so much as we're looking to make sure they're not really in a position to devastate us with a massive preemptive strike in the future. Given that they've demonstrated w/o hesitation that they will be more than happy to do this, we have no reason to believe they won't do it again...I mean, do you really expect us not to make sure we're not going to get ****ed again? That'd be pretty freaking stupid of us. Then again, I feel like the only people campaigning for this are on the side of the war against C&G, and seem to want to lay waste to us. How odd. And here we thought White Peace in Karma would set things off on the right foot or something.

You'd be foolish if you didn't believe MK hasn't been rendering all the assistance to Polaris that it can on its other fronts. We've been working tirelessly with the alliances involved, and while we're not really in a position to lend military support (and it has not been requested), we are nonetheless helping out however we can. Hopefully the fruits of those labors will be able to manifest themselves soon enough.

[b]And lastly, before you seek to blame Grub for everything, none of this would have happened if TOP and IRON and company hadn't preemptively blitzed an uninvolved C&G.[/b] Yes, you can say "GRUB OKAYED IT!!!!" but that doesn't change the fact that TOP and company both devised and executed the plan. They claim we were going to enter against them - well, if you had activated our treaties, then yes, we would have honored our damn treaties and defended our allies. But outside of that obvious state (which should really be the status quo for any alliance on Bob), we were an uninvolved party. You brought this on yourselves, TOP and friends, and now you've made it clear through this TOPocalypse stunt that you wish to make it as brutal as possible.

This folly is of your making, not ours.
[/quote]


So it is only acceptable when a member of your bloc attacks another alliance(say TPF for instance) with a 6 month old cb(without negotiations or any diplomacy). You would have entered the fray regardless, so try to contain some of the moral outrage. Yes, TOP and IRON acted stupidly in prempting the treaties, but don't act like you would have been some uninvolved party.

[Ivan Moldavi]

[quote name='Moridin' date='06 February 2010 - 06:24 PM' timestamp='1265498653' post='2165324']
I lied. It was disappointing to see rumors spread so quickly since I believe only Grub and I knew of the strike on our side of things, while a few TOP and IRON people did as well on their side of things. I was hoping to nip the rumors in the bud, but clearly that didn't work.
[/quote]
I see.

Was your decision to lie to me a directive of your government since you had been charged with heading up the Polar war effort?

[Earogema]

Expected.

I lol'd so hard though.

[itseZe]

[quote name='jimbacher' date='06 February 2010 - 09:35 PM' timestamp='1265510106' post='2165769']
You would have entered the fray regardless, so try to contain some of the moral outrage. Yes, TOP and IRON acted stupidly in prempting the treaties, but don't act like you would have been some uninvolved party.
[/quote]
Try to read what he wrote again. He didn't claim that C&G wouldn't be involved.

[quote]They claim we were going to enter against them - well, if you had activated our treaties, then yes, we would have honored our damn treaties and defended our allies.[/quote]

[Moridin]

[quote name='Ivan Moldavi' date='06 February 2010 - 06:42 PM' timestamp='1265510556' post='2165788']
I see.

Was your decision to lie to me a directive of your government since you had been charged with heading up the Polar war effort?
[/quote]

No. I lied to you in an evidently failed attempt to maintain some semblence of OPSEC, not because anyone above me asked me to.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Moridin

[jimbacher]

[quote name='itseZe' date='06 February 2010 - 09:43 PM' timestamp='1265510601' post='2165790']
Try to read what he wrote again. He didn't claim that C&G wouldn't be involved.
[/quote]

Ok, then why the outrage, I am confused.

[astronaut jones]

[quote name='Moridin' date='07 February 2010 - 02:43 AM' timestamp='1265510632' post='2165792']
No. I lied to you in an evidently failed attempt to maintain some semblence of OPSEC, not because anyone above me asked me to.
[/quote]

OPSEC is dead.. has been for years now.

[Banksy]

[quote name='jimbacher' date='07 February 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1265510106' post='2165769']
So it is only acceptable when a member of your bloc attacks another alliance(say TPF for instance) with a 6 month old cb(without negotiations or any diplomacy). You would have entered the fray regardless, so try to contain some of the moral outrage. Yes, TOP and IRON acted stupidly in prempting the treaties, but don't act like you would have been some uninvolved party.
[/quote]

Athens did not pre-emptively blitz you because of what they felt you *might* do. They attacked you for spying on them.

But regardless of that- your argument does not match Achron's words. He simply said that TOP/IRON/TORN would not be in the situation they are in now if they hadn't chosen to aggressively attack C&G. They put themselves in this mess.