The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Alterego]

Karma had rules? News to me.

They still dont

[popsumpot]

That would probably depend on the 'other guy's history and reputation, to be fair.

Are you serious? You would just call up buddies and go to war based on history and reputation?

[junkahoolik]

So the arguments are:

The CB is 6 months old! - So? Where in the CN rulebook does it say you must declare within a certain timeframe?

Mhawk had a falling out with ZH! - Too bad so sad. The fact remains that this was planned and set into motion.

TPF and Athens were at war at the time! - No they weren't. not one single war was declared between the two alliances. Not one soldier killed. Stop it with this one because you all look ridiculous using it.

Which ones did I miss?

the first one when TPF surrendered to KARMA and got terms.

[shahenshah]

Athens has not been in a state of war with TPF since the NoCB war up until today. What part of that don't you !@#$@#$ people understand?

Ok, let me try again, just for you *hugz*

eclares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned.

You see, there surrender terms are that they're to declare white peace against EVERYONE, see some of you were claiming TPF committed act of war during the war, then some of you have said they had 'intentions;...but you see the surrender terms say that all acts of war must stop, against all alliances, whether under signed or not. Wether they're at war or not, The wording of the terms is such that it covers the entire set of alliances.

Now is there any evidence to suggest that they've not carried out the terms during the terms and after the terms? They also surrendered to Karma AND specific alliances, Athens happens to be in Karma.

[Tygaland]

You seem pretty adamant that people should know this now, well now that you need to manipulate history to try and legitimise this moronic war.

You could always look up Athens' DoWs from Karma to see who they were at war with. It'd probably be faster than Athens listing all the alliances they weren't at war with.

[Sargun II]

Ok so we are at a mild agreement that TPF did wrong, punishment is probably due. Severity is hard to measure because you will find that no one will allow others to trawl through ones forums for evidence of how much damage was actually caused (the only way to prove the extent or lack of). Short of demanding mhawk step down for the plan, what sort of terms would or could be offered during a round of diplomatic talks prior to the commencement of any attacks?

Public apology, giving the names of all operatives, perhaps punitive damages in the form of forced tech deals or reps but preferably not too high. Perhaps high reps and terms involving spy ops, but definitely not war. At least try to talk first.

I am sorry but we seem to speak two different languages here.

I will take the liberty to ignore your first paragraph. I have tried to answer that point twice, Tyga has tried to clarify that, frankly we obviously won't agree here.

Your second paragraph confuses me. The setup itself is proof of the fact that the plan was not a short term (as in within 2 months) but a longterm plan. So at least the timescale should be proven i hope.

The next part is, where i either missunderstand you, or we have a massive disconnect in how we play this game. As i read it, you are saying that TPF sending infiltrators into an alliance (not their archenemy, but simply a random enemy out of a group of 20 they were opposing) is NOT an act of agression but rather a preemptive defensive action? If that is truly what you meant to say are you serious?

I never said that. I said that it could be either a preemptive aggressive or defensive action. If Athens decided to declare war on TPF later on and the plan was still in operation, would it not be beneficial to TPF to activate their plan to defend themselves?

[Tygaland]

They still dont

So, if there are no rules, how are they changed?

[ikMark]

I don't get how people are trying to pretend like this type of behaviour is allowed. I see people pretending like this is just 'a regular act of war'. To those, I'll ask.. since when is trying to infiltrate in alliances on the other side of the war - just an act of war-. If you participate in this kind of behaviour, be a man and accept the consequences. And no, I don't give a $%&@ about 'WE NEVER TALKED TO THEM AFTER JULY 18th'. Accept responsibility for things you did, and planned on doing.

Also, the fact that they just found out (x months later).. doesn't change a thing in my opinion.

Edit: Oh, I haven't read all posts in this topic. Most of it seems trash anyway.

Edited December 27, 2009 by ikMark

[popsumpot]

I don't get how people are trying to pretend like this type of behaviour is allowed. I see people pretending like this is just 'a regular act of war'. To those, I'll ask.. since when is trying to infiltrate in alliances on the other side of the war - just an act of war-. If you participate in this kind of behaviour, be a man and accept the consequences. And no, I don't give a $%&@ about 'WE NEVER TALKED TO THEM AFTER JULY 18th'. Accept responsibility for things you did, and planned on doing.

Also, the fact that they just found out (x months later).. doesn't change a thing in my opinion.

Will you kindly do exactly what you preach and declare on every single ex-Vox Populi member?

[Johnny Apocalypse]

That is the worst comparison ever. Please try harder.

Okay so no one was actually murdered, it's still a crime the point stands. It's still not cool to do it to an alliance you were not formally at war with. If they set it up with intent to harm MK, it'd be different, because MK were actually at war with TPF.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Johnny Apocalypse

[Alterego]

You could always look up Athens' DoWs from Karma to see who they were at war with. It'd probably be faster than Athens listing all the alliances they weren't at war with.

I don't need to I looked up Karma and the surrender and Athens never seemed to have a problem with either until they needed to manipulate history to suit this war.

[Chief Savage Man]

Let me get this straight.

TPF says it isn't their fault because the alliance they created to infiltrate Athens stopped talking to them?

[astronaut jones]

So the arguments are:

The CB is 6 months old! - So? Where in the CN rulebook does it say you must declare within a certain timeframe?

Mhawk had a falling out with ZH! - Too bad so sad. The fact remains that this was planned and set into motion.

TPF and Athens were at war at the time! - No they weren't. not one single war was declared between the two alliances. Not one soldier killed. Stop it with this one because you all look ridiculous using it.

Which ones did I miss?

If it was planned by mhawk and set in motion by mhawk, even though he had a falling out with them awhile ago, it might be easy for mhawk to get TPF peace if he simply swallows his pride and makes some concessions towards those attacking him. I know how hard it is for mhawk to admit he's wrong, but really, those reasons above, and hopefully if those alliances attacking TPF now are rather reasonable, if mhawk were to make some concessions towards athens, rok, etc. (not \m/, they don't deserve anything) and you could find TPF out of the war within 24 hours.

[Zizka]

I don't get how people are trying to pretend like this type of behaviour is allowed. I see people pretending like this is just 'a regular act of war'. To those, I'll ask.. since when is trying to infiltrate in alliances on the other side of the war - just an act of war-. If you participate in this kind of behaviour, be a man and accept the consequences. And no, I don't give a $%&@ about 'WE NEVER TALKED TO THEM AFTER JULY 18th'. Accept responsibility for things you did, and planned on doing.

Also, the fact that they just found out (x months later).. doesn't change a thing in my opinion.

Edit: Oh, I haven't read all posts in this topic. Most of it seems like trash anyway.

Oh please, its been recognized as a legitimate act of war for some time now.

[_GunneR_]

Public apology, giving the names of all operatives, perhaps punitive damages in the form of forced tech deals or reps but preferably not too high. Perhaps high reps and terms involving spy ops, but definitely not war. At least try to talk first.

The problem there being that it does not remove the danger of the act being committed again, in some way prevention of further occurrences must be assured. That means reduction of influence, unfortunately there are very few ways to achieve such a reduction. Perhaps war is the only way to deter and prevent.

[Jgoods45]

At least we know for sure which alliances will be counter declaring us later on. :3

[Tygaland]

Will you kindly do exactly what you preach and declare on every single ex-Vox Populi member?

Weren't they PZI'd for their espionage and infiltration already?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Tygaland

[Johnny Apocalypse]

If it was planned by mhawk and set in motion by mhawk, even though he had a falling out with them awhile ago, it might be easy for mhawk to get TPF peace if he simply swallows his pride and makes some concessions towards those attacking him. I know how hard it is for mhawk to admit he's wrong, but really, those reasons above, and hopefully if those alliances attacking TPF now are rather reasonable, if mhawk were to make some concessions towards athens, rok, etc. (not \m/, they don't deserve anything) and you could find TPF out of the war within 24 hours.

Judging by his behaviour in the closing days of the Karma war, I can't see that happening.

[magicninja]

Ok, let me try again, just for you *hugz*

You see, there surrender terms are that they're to declare white peace against EVERYONE, see some of you were claiming TPF committed act of war during the war, then some of you have said they had 'intentions;...but you see the surrender terms say that all acts of war must stop, against all alliances, whether under signed or not. Wether they're at war or not, The wording of the terms is such that it covers the entire set of alliances.

Now is there any evidence to suggest that they've not carried out the terms during the terms and after the terms? They also surrendered to Karma AND specific alliances, Athens happens to be in Karma.

Trying to loophole their way out eh?

That article was to end TPF's supposed ZI practices and perma wars against alliances from before the Karma war. The way it is written they also declared peace with GATO and GDI and NPO and TORN and well that just makes no sense now does it?

[Tygaland]

I don't need to I looked up Karma and the surrender and Athens never seemed to have a problem with either until they needed to manipulate history to suit this war.

You mean the quote you took from TPF's surrender terms where you deliberately left the last part of the sentence off that specified who they surrendered to?

[astronaut jones]

Judging by his behaviour in the closing days of the Karma war, I can't see that happening.

TPF is still rebuilding from the last war, it might be in their best interests to just admit wrongdoing and accept the punishment that allows them to exist and be left relatively unharmed by further war.

[ikMark]

Will you kindly do exactly what you preach and declare on every single ex-Vox Populi member?

Why would I? As far as I'm aware they never spied on me, or my alliance.

Also, I like the switch from talking about what an entire alliance that still exists did, to what an alliance that isn't even around anymore did. In this game, we usually punish an alliance as a whole if they do something wrong, rather than punishing their individual members even after their alliance is disbanded.

Oh please, its been recognized as a legitimate act of war for some time now.

Are you serious? $%&@! Why hasn't anyone passed me that memo?

Edited December 27, 2009 by ikMark

[Doitzel]

Will you kindly do exactly what you preach and declare on every single ex-Vox Populi member?

As I've stated, our alliance made peace with every single alliance we spied on (including ones that didn't know we'd spied on them) before disbanding, except for NPO and TPF, whose surrender terms included clauses that required them to stop PZIing us. So, yeah, as much as I like the throw-back to everything being about Vox, this really isn't.

[Chief Savage Man]

Alright, friends. The war started already. Nothing anybody says in this thread will cause all four of the alliances that have attacked TPF so far to reverse their DoWs. Just keep that in mind.

[popsumpot]

Why would I? As far as I'm aware they never spied on me, or my alliance.

Also, I like the switch from talking about what an entire alliance that still exists did, to what an alliance that isn't even around anymore did. In this game, we usually punish an alliance as a whole if they do something wrong, rather than punishing their individual members even after their alliance is disbanded.

So TPF spied on your or your alliance did they?