The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Doitzel]

Your excuse is that six months ago, somebody who was in power in an alliance ordered an act of war against an alliance that was on an opposing side of them in a war, and that they could do it again?

Holy !@#$, you are a moron. Isn't it possible Athens could do the same thing? Isn't it possible Athens is doing the same thing now but their co-conspirators haven't come forward? We should probably declare on Athens just to be safe.

Except there is no evidence that Athens has done as much, which cannot be said for TPF.

[Alterego]

Athens was not at war with TPF.

They surrendered to karma and Athens was in Karma.

[The AUT]

I do not see Athens in the lists of alliances they surrendered to, I also don't see our signature block there. I would also like to note that TPF declared war on Avalanche and not the entirety of Karma.

This is a lame excuse. If you were at war with TPF, why didn't you continue to attack them? You are still at war until a ceasefire is reached. Either you agreed to the ceasefire or your milcom is just overly inept to the fact you mistook "The Phoenix Federation" with "Knights of Ni".

[popsumpot]

Except there is no evidence that Athens has done as much, which cannot be said for TPF.

Show me the evidence that Athens has done nothing!

cwutididthar?

[Sargun II]

Except there is no evidence that Athens has done as much, which cannot be said for TPF.

Did Athens approach TPF diplomatically before declaring war?

(I want you to know that I was just pointing a hole in the argument of 'they could POTENTIALLY do something' as a proper CB which is why I'm abandoning that line of thought)

Edited December 27, 2009 by Sargun

[astronaut jones]

All you have to add is murder this and statue of limitations that, who was murdered? i surely don't see it. Perhaps you should locate some wit before posting again because your not adding any sort of relevant information to the thread. It's a game and this is not murder so find another excuse.

if they just found out about it now, it's just cause for war. There's no statute of limitations on planet bob.. if you wrong someone, it's going to come back to bite you in the $@!. TPF once waited over a YEAR to declare war on an alliance (NoV to be exact) and their CB was horrible.

At least this one, in so far as I can see, seems adequate and even marginally justified for the time being, unless other information comes out. So far it's just a lot of denial and not a lot of actual proof as to how/why ZH wasn't under their control (not that that matters, what matters is if they originally were)

So.. yeah.. unless I missed it, it's early, I just woke up out of my spaceship bed.

[Doitzel]

Show me the evidence that Athens has done nothing!

cwutididthar?

Compared apples and oranges? Yeah, I see that.

Did Athens approach TPF diplomatically before declaring war?

(I want you to know that I was just pointing a hole in the argument of 'they could POTENTIALLY do something' as a proper CB which is why I'm abandoning that line of thought)

No, and they should have, though I don't doubt that TPF would have used the opportunity to their advantage which would have resulted in Athens jumping to keep them out of peace anyway.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Elyat

[Jgoods45]

This is a lame excuse. If you were at war with TPF, why didn't you continue to attack them? You are still at war until a ceasefire is reached. Either you agreed to the ceasefire or your milcom is just overly inept to the fact you mistook "The Phoenix Federation" with "Knights of Ni".

Athens did not consider our selves to be in a state of war with TPF in the Karma War. Period.

[junkahoolik]

Welcome, I'm Glad.

So why did TPF surrender to "Karma" AND those specific alliances.

In addition to that..let me remind you of this term:

Seeing that TPF had cleared the terms, we can assume they did not violate them, so do you have in your hand new evidence to support they've committed act of war after expiration of terms?

Yes, facing a prospect of eternal war, it was created, when war ended, did ZH or any other cell continue to operate? Again, are acts of war during war liable to become CB 6 or so months afters the said wars?

Again, that happened during the War, Also read the surrender term clause above.

Read the surrender term clause above.

So Athens is going to war as they feel an act of war was committed against them during a war 6 months ago?

My apologies regarding the accusations.

I would not try to deflect on a thread reflecting the absurdity of the CB

shah, you can try to to reason with people who are unreasonable but the fact that they are unreasonable just means they won't listen to reason. any kind of reason. and they will deflect the actual actions to things that give them advantage in the convo. as if you didn't know... anyway, it's simple really... some peps don't like other peps so they search for any reasons no matter how bull to start hurting them peps.

[HellAngel]

Wait people think ZH is working for Mhawk? LOL Now that would prove to be one if the stupdist things I have hear in awhile so I guessing Athens, RoK etc are completely aware of the great dislike between the two parties and are not stupid enough to think they have talked since the war. So the CB is from what they did during the war? Cause that opens up every single alliance that has ever been at war to a random CB for anything said or planned during it. And that is going to be a tool that can be used.

The real CB is convenience.

[shahenshah]

Article II ~ ZI lists and wars

TPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned. TPF releases all claims on all alliances (including surrender terms but not treaty partners) and alliance affiliations other than The Phoenix Federation and applicable applicant alliance affiliations.

No offensive war or spy attack may be launched against any nation except ghosts and rogues against TPF for the duration of these terms, under the provisions outlined in Article IV.

TPF was required to declare white peace against ALL alliances, does that include Athens? Yes, does Athens has proof that TPF didn't after the terms were enforced? No.

[James I]

Your excuse is that six months ago, somebody who was in power in an alliance ordered an act of war against an alliance that was on an opposing side of them in a war, and that they could do it again?

Holy !@#$, you are a moron. Isn't it possible Athens could do the same thing? Isn't it possible Athens is doing the same thing now but their co-conspirators haven't come forward? We should probably declare on Athens just to be safe.

Yes, that is possible. It's also possible that it's TPF's government who are the co-conspirators working to de-throne mhawk!

While Athens and Ragnarok have logs to back their claims up, you're just thinking up absurd scenarios with no factual base.

[Kzoppistan]

That would be because we agreed and signed peace with them.

And isn't is true that all factions of Karma and Hegemony have since ended their dispute?

I understand that sticking to the whole "but TPF and Athens weren't technically at war" excuse is convenient. But that doesn't change the fact that Athens is attempting to harm TPF because they want to do harm. Not for any other reason, otherwise they would have tried to hash it out first.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Tulafaras]

If X is at war with forces Y is allied with, if I was a part of X I'd definitely put in some sort of evil !@#$%^& plan to hurt Y.

Your excuse is that six months ago, somebody who was in power in an alliance ordered an act of war against an alliance that was on an opposing side of them in a war, and that they could do it again?

Holy !@#$, you are a moron. Isn't it possible Athens could do the same thing? Isn't it possible Athens is doing the same thing now but their co-conspirators haven't come forward? We should probably declare on Athens just to be safe.

Considering how ill thought out your post is, are you really sure you want to start calling the other side names?

TPF was not at war with Athens. If you consider Karma a unified Faction (which frankly was clear to see that it was not) then maybe an act of spying during the war would have been acceptable (if they came clean and stopped such operations during the surrender negotiations), but this was not a short term plan for spying. It was meant as a long-term plan against an alliance they hated (for some reason which likely had little to do with Karma, otherwise they would have aimed for one of their direct opponents).

Can you see the difference? Even if your scenario was correct (and frankly i disagree on almost all points of your second sentence), the act he ordered would have had no effect on the war which was fought at that time. It was a preparation for future acts of aggression.

[The Pansy]

Well, whatever. I don't really care, \m/ is in the fight, which means I'm not, since I'm carrying over my bel air "won't help them in any way" to \m/, since it's just bel air with a new name.

AJ, you have my complete respect for this

[The AUT]

Athens did not consider our selves to be in a state of war with TPF in the Karma War. Period.

Then why are you using the excuse of not fully accepting TPF surrender terms? What does this mean you were in a de facto state of war with them? Make up your minds.

[Alterego]

TPF was required to declare white peace against ALL alliances, does that include Athens? Yes, does Athens has proof that TPF didn't after the terms were enforced? No.

So Karma are breaking their own peace terms.

[popsumpot]

Yes, that is possible. It's also possible that it's TPF's government who are the co-conspirators working to de-throne mhawk!

While Athens and Ragnarok have logs to back their claims up, you're just thinking up absurd scenarios with no factual base.

Your ability to shut your eyes and plug your ears while sprouting the party line - it's amazing!

[SiL3nT]

if they just found out about it now, it's just cause for war. There's no statute of limitations on planet bob.. if you wrong someone, it's going to come back to bite you in the $@!. TPF once waited over a YEAR to declare war on an alliance (NoV to be exact) and their CB was horrible.

At least this one, in so far as I can see, seems adequate and even marginally justified for the time being, unless other information comes out. So far it's just a lot of denial and not a lot of actual proof as to how/why ZH wasn't under their control (not that that matters, what matters is if they originally were)

So.. yeah.. unless I missed it, it's early, I just woke up out of my spaceship bed.

You and I see the same thing then, not much in the way of any actual proof, just a lot of denial and accusations mixed with arguments. On a side not i haven't actually been to bed yet since yesterday sometime.

[Jgoods45]

TPF was required to declare white peace against ALL alliances, does that include Athens? Yes, does Athens has proof that TPF didn't after the terms were enforced? No.

Athens has not been in a state of war with TPF since the NoCB war up until today. What part of that don't you !@#$@#$ people understand?

[junkahoolik]

Considering how ill thought out your post is, are you really sure you want to start calling the other side names?

TPF was not at war with Athens. If you consider Karma a unified Faction (which frankly was clear to see that it was not) then maybe an act of spying during the war would have been acceptable (if they came clean and stopped such operations during the surrender negotiations), but this was not a short term plan for spying. It was meant as a long-term plan against an alliance they hated (for some reason which likely had little to do with Karma, otherwise they would have aimed for one of their direct opponents).

Can you see the difference? Even if your scenario was correct (and frankly i disagree on almost all points of your second sentence), the act he ordered would have had no effect on the war which was fought at that time. It was a preparation for future acts of aggression.

Athens has not been in a state of war with TPF since the NoCB war up until today. What part of that don't you !@#$@#$ people understand?

They didn't, they surrendered to Karma which was specified as certain alliances within those terms. The specified alliances were not an "and", they were a specification of the alliances TPF surrendered to under the Karma umbrella.

(they are even kicking themselves out just to serve their intentions)

see what i mean?? now they cry they were not part of KARMA. in a few months, KARMA will just have been formed by 2 stray dogs...

edit: added another post. keep them coming please.

Edited December 27, 2009 by junkahoolik

[Alterego]

Athens did not consider our selves to be in a state of war with TPF in the Karma War. Period.

Why didnt you say that when they surrendered to all Karma?

[Sargun II]

Yes, that is possible. It's also possible that it's TPF's government who are the co-conspirators working to de-throne mhawk!

While Athens and Ragnarok have logs to back their claims up, you're just thinking up absurd scenarios with no factual base.

Athens and Ragnarok have six month old logs dating to a time when Athens and TPF were on opposing sides of a war. This isn't like TPF decided to randomly infiltrate and try to hurt Athens. Further, TPF declared white peace to Athens and there are no logs from after that point showing that TPF continued their scheme against Athens. Even if Athens and TPF weren't at war, TPF did formally agree to cease all operations against Athens.

Considering how ill thought out your post is, are you really sure you want to start calling the other side names?

TPF was not at war with Athens. If you consider Karma a unified Faction (which frankly was clear to see that it was not) then maybe an act of spying during the war would have been acceptable (if they came clean and stopped such operations during the surrender negotiations), but this was not a short term plan for spying. It was meant as a long-term plan against an alliance they hated (for some reason which likely had little to do with Karma, otherwise they would have aimed for one of their direct opponents).

Can you see the difference? Even if your scenario was correct (and frankly i disagree on almost all points of your second sentence), the act he ordered would have had no effect on the war which was fought at that time. It was a preparation for future acts of aggression.

It was a preparation for future acts of aggression. Can you prove it? Is it not equally plausible TPF was using it in preparation for future acts of aggression against them?

(By the way, I'll repeat myself: I don't think Athens is doing what TPF did and I don't agree they should be attack. Lighten up, I was making fun of something)

Edited December 27, 2009 by Sargun

[popsumpot]

Athens has not been in a state of war with TPF since the NoCB war up until today. What part of that don't you !@#$@#$ people understand?

God damn people! Don't read between the lines! In fact, Athens loves TPF!

[Tygaland]

Welcome, I'm Glad.

I'm glad you are glad.

So why did TPF surrender to "Karma" AND those specific alliances.

They didn't, they surrendered to Karma which was specified as certain alliances within those terms. The specified alliances were not an "and", they were a specification of the alliances TPF surrendered to under the Karma umbrella.

In addition to that..let me remind you of this term:

Seeing that TPF had cleared the terms, we can assume they did not violate them, so do you have in your hand new evidence to support they've committed act of war after expiration of terms?

So offenses undetected are worthy of a free pass in your world? Not to mention Athens were not signatory to the terms you cite. As for whether TPF did not violate terms, who knows. If they did they didn't get caught.

Yes, facing a prospect of eternal war, it was created, when war ended, did ZH or any other cell continue to operate? Again, are acts of war during war liable to become CB 6 or so months afters the said wars?

The only way TPF would have faced eternal war was if they chose to do so. You'd have to ask ZH if they operated post war. But that has nothing to do with the questions I asked Mhawk. I asked him to address the chunks of the accusations made against him that he failed to cover in this thread. So, I'll wait for him to answer those question if you don't mind.

Again, that happened during the War, Also read the surrender term clause above.

Read the surrender term clause above.

Again, TPF were not at war with Athens. The surrender term you quote is irrelevant to the issues I'm asking Mhawk about and seeing as Athens did not sign them it is not really relevant to them either.

So Athens is going to war as they feel an act of war was committed against them during a war 6 months ago?

TPF and Athens were not at war as evidenced by the surrender terms you cite which neither carry Athens' signatures nor mentions them. The irony of all this is that when I complained about certain peace term when Karma War was winding up I was told by both sides to butt out as I was not involved on that front and therefore not permitted any input. Now, it appears Karma was one big mob in which we all had equal involvement across all fronts. I really to struggle with the ever-changing definitions trotted out depending on the situation.

I would not try to deflect on a thread reflecting the absurdity of the CB

You already have been. Now, if you would allow Mhawk to address my actual questions it'd be much appreciated.