The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Tulafaras]

And isn't is true that all factions of Karma and Hegemony have since ended their dispute?

I understand that sticking to the whole "but TPF and Athens weren't technically at war" excuse is convenient. But that doesn't change the fact that Athens is attempting to harm TPF because they want to do harm. Not for any other reason, otherwise they would have tried to hash it out first.

Are you planning to read any response and actually consider what was said or are you planning to post the same drivel for another few days before you finally stop?

TPF hatched a long-term plan which could not have affected the outcome of the karma war under any circumstances (since the operatives would need to stay in Karma-Pow until they were released, which is not something that would be done as long as the outcome was in doubt).

If they had immediatly stopped this plan and came clean once peace was signed nothing would have come of this except some raised eyebrows. Instead they did nothing, now Athens was informed of this long term plan to damage them. What exactly are they supposed to do with this information instead of declaring war?

Frankly this has been the clearest CB i've seen in the last 2 years.

PS: The fact that the attempt was not successfull does not change the fact that it was attempted.

[Rush Sykes]

Why didnt you say that when they surrendered to all Karma?

Because nobody in history has ever just for the hell of it, up and said, "We are not war with..." then begin listing every alliance we are not at war with. Your notion that we should have said something back then, is quite frankly, moronic.

[_GunneR_]

If X is at war with forces Y is allied with, if I was a part of X I'd definitely put in some sort of evil !@#$%^& plan to hurt Y.

Your excuse is that six months ago, somebody who was in power in an alliance ordered an act of war against an alliance that was on an opposing side of them in a war, and that they could do it again?

Holy !@#$, you are a moron. Isn't it possible Athens could do the same thing? Isn't it possible Athens is doing the same thing now but their co-conspirators haven't come forward? We should probably declare on Athens just to be safe.

You misunderstand me, judging from your quick jump to insults this is not out of character for you, so I'll explain again. This was not an act of war, an act of war would be a military attack, a ground assault, bombing, use of nuclear weapons etc. However what was committed was a clear cut plan to undermine an alliance through the use of a spy syndicate or some type of take-over attempt that would not have served to benefit The Phoenix Federation but only to be of long term harm to Athens. That would not have ever won the war for the Federation, don't you agree?

Yes Athens are possibly capable of the same, it is possible that Athens is doing the same, but judging by what we have of them (our own judgement of their character) they don't seem likely to undertake such an act. They have no prior offences of the sort. On the other hand we now have proof of The Phoenix Federation's previous activities. We have reason to now take action "to be safe". It is never safe to just guess.

[James I]

Your ability to shut your eyes and plug your ears while sprouting the party line - it's amazing!

Do you have an argument to put forward?

[Sargun II]

What exactly are they supposed to do with this information instead of declaring war?

Because there's no such thing as diplomacy, right?

[popsumpot]

Do you have an argument to put forward?

Did you even read the OP?

[Tygaland]

ooh, you're mistaken... i'm not here to support TPF... i don't really care about them... really... i'm just here to point out KARMA's hypocrisy. yeah, i nurture a grudge... and i nurture it well as for the log dump that whoever was in charge of npo did, i'll point out to the hippo and the crit that my sig prolly will never have

OK, I have no idea what you just tried to say so I'll nod, smile and back away slowly.

[Tulafaras]

Because there's no such thing as diplomacy, right?

Of course there is, but there is also such a thing as "casus belli" which literally means a cause for war.

[junkahoolik]

OK, I have no idea what you just tried to say so I'll nod, smile and back away slowly.

fine with me. i'll mark you as a stray then

[Tygaland]

This is a lame excuse. If you were at war with TPF, why didn't you continue to attack them? You are still at war until a ceasefire is reached. Either you agreed to the ceasefire or your milcom is just overly inept to the fact you mistook "The Phoenix Federation" with "Knights of Ni".

Errm, I think you need to have a rest. You are not even talking about the same thing everyone else is anymore.

[Alterego]

snip.

The ever changing list of Karma rules makes me laugh. Im surprised anyone still knows if they were in Karma and which side they fought on. It was a 2 sided world war and they were on opposite sides.

Karmas motto should have been "rewriting history one war at a time"

[Sargun II]

You misunderstand me, judging from your quick jump to insults this is not out of character for you, so I'll explain again. This was not an act of war, an act of war would be a military attack, a ground assault, bombing, use of nuclear weapons etc. However what was committed was a clear cut plan to undermine an alliance through the use of a spy syndicate or some type of take-over attempt that would not have served to benefit The Phoenix Federation but only to be of long term harm to Athens. That would not have ever won the war for the Federation, don't you agree?

Yes Athens are possibly capable of the same, it is possible that Athens is doing the same, but judging by what we have of them (our own judgement of their character) they don't seem likely to undertake such an act. They have no prior offences of the sort. On the other hand we now have proof of The Phoenix Federation's previous activities. We have reason to now take action "to be safe". It is never safe to just guess.

I do agree that it would not have won a war for the Federation. I am simply of the opinion that starting a plan like that during a war is fine. I am also of the opinion that stopping the plan, after agreeing to stop such operations on all alliances even if they were not specified by name, is fine.

I agree that TPF did something that is potentially a legitimate CB. What I disagree with is not using diplomacy and not trying to find any logs from AFTER TPF surrendered.

@Tulafaras: I find jumping to war before taking diplomacy over a CB based on past wrongs in extremely ill taste. All you did was take the word of a scorned protectorate. You didn't try to talk, you didn't try to get evidence to disprove it, you didn't do anything except go straight to war. It's sickening.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Sargun

[popsumpot]

Of course there is, but there is also such a thing as "casus belli" which literally means a cause for war.

If you had a protectorate, that out of the blue suddenly claims that they were spying on us for some other guys, you would just declare war on them without any contact at all? You wouldn't even go to them and get this straightened out? Or ask for evidence to the contrary? Instead you just call up your buddies and go straight to war, right?

[The Big Bad]

Are you planning to read any response and actually consider what was said or are you planning to post the same drivel for another few days before you finally stop?

TPF hatched a long-term plan which could not have affected the outcome of the karma war under any circumstances (since the operatives would need to stay in Karma-Pow until they were released, which is not something that would be done as long as the outcome was in doubt).

If they had immediatly stopped this plan and came clean once peace was signed nothing would have come of this except some raised eyebrows. Instead they did nothing, now Athens was informed of this long term plan to damage them. What exactly are they supposed to do with this information instead of declaring war?

Frankly this has been the clearest CB i've seen in the last 2 years.

PS: The fact that the attempt was not successfull does not change the fact that it was attempted.

So you would also support war against FAN for things they did during the long running FAN conflict or against any member of Vox or any member of Karma as well for anything they planned or said about NPO last year? Yeah thats just how stupid this CB is.

[Sigrun Vapneir]

If you had a protectorate, that out of the blue suddenly claims that they were spying on us for some other guys, you would just declare war on them without any contact at all? You wouldn't even go to them and get this straightened out? Or ask for evidence to the contrary? Instead you just call up your buddies and go straight to war, right?

That would probably depend on the 'other guy's history and reputation, to be fair.

[_GunneR_]

I do agree that it would not have won a war for the Federation. I am simply of the opinion that starting a plan like that during a war is fine. I am also of the opinion that stopping the plan, after agreeing to stop such operations on all alliances even if they were not specified by name, is fine.

I agree that TPF did something that is potentially a legitimate CB. What I disagree with is not using diplomacy and not trying to find any logs from AFTER TPF surrendered.

Ok so we are at a mild agreement that TPF did wrong, punishment is probably due. Severity is hard to measure because you will find that no one will allow others to trawl through ones forums for evidence of how much damage was actually caused (the only way to prove the extent or lack of). Short of demanding mhawk step down for the plan, what sort of terms would or could be offered during a round of diplomatic talks prior to the commencement of any attacks?

[junkahoolik]

So you would also support war against FAN for things they did during the long running FAN conflict or against any member of Vox or any member of Karma as well for anything they planned or said about NPO last year? Yeah thats just how stupid this CB is.

it's not stupid... now he's on the receiving end. it's hypocritical.

[Tulafaras]

Athens and Ragnarok have six month old logs dating to a time when Athens and TPF were on opposing sides of a war. This isn't like TPF decided to randomly infiltrate and try to hurt Athens. Further, TPF declared white peace to Athens and there are no logs from after that point showing that TPF continued their scheme against Athens. Even if Athens and TPF weren't at war, TPF did formally agree to cease all operations against Athens.

It was a preparation for future acts of aggression. Can you prove it? Is it not equally plausible TPF was using it in preparation for future acts of aggression against them?

(By the way, I'll repeat myself: I don't think Athens is doing what TPF did and I don't agree they should be attack. Lighten up, I was making fun of something)

I am sorry but we seem to speak two different languages here.

I will take the liberty to ignore your first paragraph. I have tried to answer that point twice, Tyga has tried to clarify that, frankly we obviously won't agree here.

Your second paragraph confuses me. The setup itself is proof of the fact that the plan was not a short term (as in within 2 months) but a longterm plan. So at least the timescale should be proven i hope.

The next part is, where i either missunderstand you, or we have a massive disconnect in how we play this game. As i read it, you are saying that TPF sending infiltrators into an alliance (not their archenemy, but simply a random enemy out of a group of 20 they were opposing) is NOT an act of agression but rather a preemptive defensive action? If that is truly what you meant to say are you serious?

[magicninja]

So the arguments are:

The CB is 6 months old! - So? Where in the CN rulebook does it say you must declare within a certain timeframe?

Mhawk had a falling out with ZH! - Too bad so sad. The fact remains that this was planned and set into motion.

TPF and Athens were at war at the time! - No they weren't. not one single war was declared between the two alliances. Not one soldier killed. Stop it with this one because you all look ridiculous using it.

Which ones did I miss?

[Alterego]

Because nobody in history has ever just for the hell of it, up and said, "We are not war with..." then begin listing every alliance we are not at war with. Your notion that we should have said something back then, is quite frankly, moronic.

You seem pretty adamant that people should know this now, well now that you need to manipulate history to try and legitimise this moronic war.

[Sargun II]

That would probably depend on the 'other guy's history and reputation, to be fair.

What does their reputation have to do with it? You have damning evidence to say they started it, so you can catch them in a lie. Forcing them to come clean about it and give you the names of everyone involved would have been a much simpler and honorable solution instead of jumping to war.

[Zoomzoomzoom]

If the police find out that you committed an attempted murder 6 months ago, do they go "Oh well, it was 6 months ago?" TPF committed an act of aggression against us. We did nothing to them.

That is the worst comparison ever. Please try harder.

[Remaliat]

Listen to TheBigBad for he is wise.

[Tygaland]

The ever changing list of Karma rules makes me laugh. Im surprised anyone still knows if they were in Karma and which side they fought on. It was a 2 sided world war and they were on opposite sides.

Karmas motto should have been "rewriting history one war at a time"

Karma had rules? News to me.

[Kzoppistan]

Are you planning to read any response and actually consider what was said or are you planning to post the same drivel for another few days before you finally stop?

Why don't you wait and see, Mr. Impatient.

TPF hatched a long-term plan which could not have affected the outcome of the karma war under any circumstances (since the operatives would need to stay in Karma-Pow until they were released, which is not something that would be done as long as the outcome was in doubt).

So your saying that every POW was held until the entirety of the war was concluded. And none were released to go their own way before that?

If they had immediatly stopped this plan and came clean once peace was signed nothing would have come of this except some raised eyebrows. Instead they did nothing, now Athens was informed of this long term plan to damage them.

A plan that was no longer in operation.

What exactly are they supposed to do with this information instead of declaring war?

What they could have done, and can still do, is take it to the table and find a reasonable conclusion like mature adults.

Frankly this has been the clearest CB i've seen in the last 2 years.

PS: The fact that the attempt was not successfull does not change the fact that it was attempted.

I'm sure this attempt at a CB is very clear for those that want to get their hands on another's tech and money. But the reality is that it is not a clear CB, it is a manufactured one.

PS. The fact that many attempts to weaken an opponent happen in war time doesn't mean that they are valid reasons for going back to war at a later date convenient for those that hunger for others destruction.