Jump to content

The Phoenix Federation Response to war.


mhawk

Recommended Posts

Not everybody is good enough to take that many alliances on :P

Practice makes perfect. Here is TPF's second try, let's see how they fare.

-snip-

OOC: Why do I keep getting the feeling that you are simply posting random nonsense logs and quotes in an attempt to gain sympathy from those too lazy to actually read the post and realize it's not even relevant?

Edited by Necromancer V4L
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.7k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

So wait.

He can use subversive activities as justification to pursue an unending war but others can't use it as a means to start one? He planned and undertook steps to create a splinter alliance of his oldest, most loyal deputies to infiltrate, undermine, and destroy another alliance with whom his alliance was not formally at war. This was never covered or addressed in any peace negotiations or finalised peace agreement despite in itself constituting a declaration of war against Athens. Athens really should have spoken to TPF about this before jumping into it, but this war is not unjustified either way. Plus, I simply cannot ignore the poetry of mhawk talking out both sides of his mouth. Where's his dignity, his decency!?

OOC: OOC matters have absolutely no place in this forum or this game's politics, full-stop. All such mention, excuses, and other sympathy cards will be summarily ignored. I got over that BS a long time ago.

Is there not a logic error for you in trying to figure out why guys that hated us well before the war ended would be willing to do such actions, or we trust them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh that's just ridiculous hyperbole. FAN, LSF and Vox were the only alliances to suffer that fate. Everyone else got terms

We were the only ones with the balls to openly confess to espionage as a means of fighting a war, too, much as mhawk has done.

Also, lol, GATO? Yeah those were some terms.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it is quite hard to disprove a negative.

This is rather off topic, but I hate the above phrase. It is quite simple (and a solid part of logical analysis) to disprove a negative. Only common mythology (usually during theological debates) has embedded this erroneous concept into popular culture. To provide but one small example from the world of mathematics: it is a trivial matter to show that there are no integer solutions to the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter in Euclidean space.

That aside,

LolTPF!

As you were.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can't honestly believe that having ex-members form AA's in an attempt to obtain a protectorate with an enemy and coup them from the inside is something that TPF pulled out of their "WAR" playbook, can you? That would take at least 2-5 months logistically, no one plans for that while negotiating a surrender. This was a blatant attempt to gain power and turn the tables in the future - they were out of options then, so they did what any good AA would do, plan for the future; only people don't take too kindly to the kind of plans that involve spying and coup attempts.

There is no expiration date on a CB; if you have been wronged by an AA then you can hold them to justice when and if you see fit. Athens and RoK have been wronged, and they will see their justice.

In context of permawar, its from the War playbook. As you said yourself, they were out of options, anyway, did they pursue it? NO, they and their allies got option of surrender and the terms were agreed and all peaced out.

And the last line is just a classic. "We can, because we can, do something about it".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So wait.

He can use subversive activities as justification to pursue an unending war but others can't use it as a means to start one? He planned and undertook steps to create a splinter alliance of his oldest, most loyal deputies to infiltrate, undermine, and destroy another alliance with whom his alliance was not formally at war. This was never covered or addressed in any peace negotiations or finalised peace agreement despite in itself constituting a declaration of war against Athens. Athens really should have spoken to TPF about this before jumping into it, but this war is not unjustified either way. Plus, I simply cannot ignore the poetry of mhawk talking out both sides of his mouth. Where's his dignity, his decency!?

Its funny watching you trying to justify this war and the position you have adopted to yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And the last line is just a classic. "We can, because we can, do something about it".

Is that not how the world works? At least in this society we attempt to guise our carnal nature with justice and morality. The war seems just, the war seems moral - good enough for the average Joe, as long as he gets his dose of war.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mhawk, I may have missed it so please point it out to me if I have. But where in this refutation of the accusations and evidence have you dealt with the core accusation here and the main element of the casus belli cited by Athens, RoK et.al.? That is, that you set up Zero Hour for the specific purpose of infiltrating Athens to cause harm to that alliance.

I get that you and Zero Hour had a falling out, that is why they have turned informer on you. But, to me it appears you still set up this system for the purpose Zero Hour have claimed and as such I don't think you have refuted the claims made against you fully.

You claim the program you devised was a "what if" in case you were in eternal war. But the fact the alliance was created and put into action (gaining a protectorate with Athens) seems to show this was perhaps not entirely accurate. It appears to me based on what I have seen that the evidence provided by Athens and RoK supports their assertion that TPF, under your leadership, fully intended to use Zero Hour for the purposes they accuse you of.

So rather than deal with soundbites and memes, I thought I'd ask you directly and see what you had to say.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mhawk, I may have missed it so please point it out to me if I have. But where in this refutation of the accusations and evidence have you dealt with the core accusation here and the main element of the casus belli cited by Athens, RoK et.al.? That is, that you set up Zero Hour for the specific purpose of infiltrating Athens to cause harm to that alliance.

I get that you and Zero Hour had a falling out, that is why they have turned informer on you. But, to me it appears you still set up this system for the purpose Zero Hour have claimed and as such I don't think you have refuted the claims made against you fully.

You claim the program you devised was a "what if" in case you were in eternal war. But the fact the alliance was created and put into action (gaining a protectorate with Athens) seems to show this was perhaps not entirely accurate. It appears to me based on what I have seen that the evidence provided by Athens and RoK supports their assertion that TPF, under your leadership, fully intended to use Zero Hour for the purposes they accuse you of.

So rather than deal with soundbites and memes, I thought I'd ask you directly and see what you had to say.

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now you know how the rest of us have felt since April!

Ok so its about the hatred, grudges and revenge. Got it, at least you have the decency to speak your heart.

Is that not how the world works? At least in this society we attempt to guise our carnal nature with justice and morality. The war seems just, the war seems moral - good enough for the average Joe, as long as he gets his dose of war.

Atleast you're being honest, I'll give you that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok thanks for your explanations, so is that THE CB now Doit?

Also Zero Honor...when are you going to prove Mhawk was your overlord after the war ended?

Still using the old NPO did it so can we argument you can now say you did it inside and outside of NPO.

Need a coherency check on aisle 6. Am I really tired or did they already stop making sense?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where to start.

1) this was not TPF brainstorming "What if" scenarios. TPF and Athens were not in a state of war. This was an action that was put into motion against Athens, along with advice on what to do once they got close.

2) The logs bear out the fact that TPFs grand announcement that they would allow TPF members to leave TPF peacefully, having fulfilled their duties to fight, was a thread started with the INTENT to further this plan.

3) Zero Hour has maintained to us since they 1st came clean, that they passed on no information. Anyone carefully reading everything associated would already be aware of this.

You see Cyberverse, has all of this stopped at what-if brainstorming, you might all have an argument. This plan however, was set into motion. You cannot read those logs which have not been impugned in any way, and say "wow, mhawk is innocent." RoK and Athens were SPECIFICALLY targeted because of their histories of mergers. It was calculated.

[4:08:31 AM] DrunkMonkey: [02:36] <Desperado`> hey mhawk

[02:36] <Desperado`> you are about to get some extended mail

[02:36] <Desperado`> lol

[02:48] <~mhawk> ?

[02:48] <~mhawk> what

[02:49] <Desperado`> the athens "factbook" for dm and yohan

[02:49] <Desperado`> its $%&@in massive

[02:49] <Desperado`> lots a good !@#$ though

Ask yourselves about the above conversation. Why would DM and Yohan need an Athens fact book if this plan were just "brainstorming what if scenarios." There was only one reason to complete this fact book, not to help DM and Yohan get a protectorate with an alliance that they despised, it was to further this plan.

[23:47] <shadow|TPF> mhawk, what timeline do you want me and scotty to be on for leaving?

[23:51] <Desperado`> Ill be honest, the next peggy irc convo is not going to go well

[23:51] <Desperado`> lol

01[23:51] <DrunkMonkey> no talking we're being interviewed

[23:51] <YohanElus> XD

[23:51] <Desperado`> who would wanna interview?

[23:52] <YohanElus> Athens gov interviewing us

[23:52] <Desperado`> nice

[23:52] <Desperado`> you two are fast workers

[23:59] <~mhawk> logs

[23:59] <~mhawk> tongue.gif

Find me one possible context that this conversation could happen in, that excludes proving that this "mission" went beyond a brainstorming session. I am a patient man, I will wait.

4:38:29 AM] DrunkMonkey: 01[03:51] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> i still believe the best chance for revenge is to catch them off guard and go for the kill

[03:53] <mhawk> lol

[03:53] <mhawk> they are little !@#$%* kids

[03:53] <mhawk> in for a blanket party

01[03:53] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> indeed

[03:53] <mhawk> however you guys feel you can hurt them the worst

[03:53] <mhawk> do it

[03:53] <mhawk> one idea

[03:53] <mhawk> was after you get some press

[03:53] <mhawk> make some pr things

[03:54] <mhawk> about no zi

[03:54] <mhawk> real idiotic pr things

[03:54] <mhawk> that pander to them

[03:54] <mhawk> then start recruiting maybe

[03:54] <mhawk> from them

01[03:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> yeah

[03:54] <mhawk> they will then have to destroy you

[03:54] <mhawk> or back off

[03:54] <mhawk> one idea

[03:54] <mhawk> is merge into sparta

[03:54] <mhawk> and hurt those $%&@es

Seriously folks...is that a WHAT IF scenario? That is actionable advice given to ZH, on what they should focus on while on their Athens mission.

[4:25:14 AM] DrunkMonkey: [04:06] <~mhawk> sitrep

[04:06] <Yohan|Away> it was pretty funny

Mhawks use of the word SITREP here, to me, is huge. There are only certain instance in which you would ask for a sitrep. Im sure we all know what those instances are.

Some of the planet will accept TPFs response, and Athens and her allies will shoulder that fallout. We, however, are completely confident that our actions are justified. We did not undertake this operation against them. The fact that we found out late, to us, and our security, holds little relevance. Crimes do not have statutes of limitation. Attempted murder is still attempted murder, a pass is not give because it failed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

Once again, there was never a formal declaration of war between Athens and TPF. I don't believe there was one single fight between the two. I also don't believe trying to infiltrate an alliance was ever an acceptable practice and has long been considered a valid CB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you post logs, at least post them in their entirety and don't leave anything out, like this part. ;)

[6/20/2009 5:24:09 AM] DrunkMonkey says: epic

[6/20/2009 5:24:14 AM] Mhawk says: i think i was explaining

[6/20/2009 5:24:18 AM] Mhawk says: your and yohan's orders

[6/20/2009 5:24:19 AM] Mhawk says: ol

[6/20/2009 5:24:24 AM] Mhawk says: your job is to piss in the stream

[6/20/2009 5:24:27 AM] Mhawk says: then flee

[6/20/2009 5:24:35 AM] DrunkMonkey says: yeah, it looked like it

[6/20/2009 5:24:40 AM] DrunkMonkey says: indeed

also,

[6/20/2009 5:33:35 AM] DrunkMonkey says: as for your annoucenment, just say "TPF is committed to standing by her allies. We will be the last off the field.

[6/20/2009 5:33:53 AM] Mhawk says: ive said that aot

[6/20/2009 5:34:03 AM] Mhawk says: what i want to do is recognize that there is escalation

[6/20/2009 5:34:12 AM] Mhawk says: and we must prepare for the long war

[6/20/2009 5:34:25 AM] Mhawk says: and that this is a volunteer mission only

[6/20/2009 5:35:15 AM] DrunkMonkey says: We have some very honorable members who have fought long and hard for TPF, who before the war broke out had other plans. They stayed and choose to fight, today they may continue on their path with honor. Thanks for yur service, blah blah..

[6/20/2009 5:35:31 AM] Mhawk says: ah

[6/20/2009 5:35:32 AM] Mhawk says: good angle

In regards to the topic that mhawk posted, that allowed TPF members to leave during the war, and thus allowing ZH to form with their orders.

Edited by Jgoods45
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only when all this occurred TPF were at war with Athens and ceased all communications with ZH before that war was over, spying is one of the many acceptable facets of war, as such this CB is noCB at all.

TPF were not at war with Athens during the Karma War, to my knowledge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mhawks use of the word SITREP here, to me, is huge. There are only certain instance in which you would ask for a sitrep. Im sure we all know what those instances are.

So TPF's claims are based on nearly full proof evidence showing how the war was fabricated, and your key point is the term "sitrep."

Alright, thanks for playing. Door's on the left.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...