The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Necromancer V4L]

No, there's not. You're saying some spying is ok and some spying is not ok. Spying is spying, whether you use your creativity to do it or do it the way someone laid it out for you to do ahead of time.

OOC: If you are invading someones forums, their personal property, to steal their information that they themselves compiled, that is wrong. A hell of a lot worse than "spying" away a nuke ingame.

Furthermore, you have to think about the actual amount of harm that is caused by the actions taken/intended. At most, running spy operations against an individual nation isn't going to cost them more than a few million dollars. However, by running an operation of this kind against an alliance, you jeopardize the sovereignty of the alliance and the safety of all members.

I hope that cleared it up for you.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Necromancer V4L

[Kzoppistan]

OOC: If you are invading someones forums, their personal property, to steal their information that they themselves compiled, that is wrong. A hell of a lot worse than "spying" away a nuke ingame.

OOC: Thankfully in this situation, that didn't happen, huh?

Also, I'd like to point out that even though everyone has been itching for war, good wars are based on events that actually happened, not on events that never happened.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Chief Savage Man]

OOC: Thankfully in this situation, that didn't happen, huh?

Also, I'd like to point out that even though everyone has been itching for war, good wars are based on events that actually happened, not on events that never happened.

You don't need the tag there buddy.

[Jack Diorno]

NAAC are not agree with this war unless we see a signed confession from Mhawk saying he did try to infiltrate RoK and Athens. Really, this CB needs so much more proof, you didn't even use forensics

[Ejayrazz]

Has anyone responded to Tyga's initial questioning?

I am still waiting to hear about that.

Furthermore, concerning the splinter group; surrendering to "Karma: (Note: they surrendered to specific names, not Karma itself as a whole, hence the signatures) is a pointless fallacy as they never were engaged in war with Athens -- meaning their motives were aggressive.

If I am understanding this puddle of toad !@#$, their 'missions' continued even after the war -- which there is no excuse in doing, making the "We were in war" argument invalid at best, especially since this splinter group should have been aimed at their then-current enemies.

Feel free to chip in, I am trying to grasp this nonsense.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Kzoppistan]

You don't need the tag there buddy.

I was using flare.

[Kzoppistan]

which there is no excuse in doing, making the "We were in war" argument invalid at best, especially since this splinter group should have been aimed at their then-current enemies.

Feel free to chip in, I am trying to grasp this nonsense.

What did they actually do that constitutes espionage, though?

So far the evidence points at nothing.

[iamthey]

Ok, let's look at it like this.

Here is a scenario. You and I, along with some third party(In this case, let's say Athens).

If today Athens were to spy on IRON or do some other action intended to hurt IRON, and then immediately after that, I sign an agreement with Athens that contains a clause stating that they must give white peace to all parties they are at war with.

Are you telling me, that because I signed that agreement with them, that you are just going to smile and be on your merry way?

Keep in mind the timescale here, obviously this plan was dropped and there were no intentions as the plan clearly wasn't conducted post war. If it had been, six months later... the effects would have been apparent. All this looks like is a pessimistic war battered alliance making preparations for an indefinite war. Moreover since when is a 'plot' (much less a plot made and dropped six months ago, much less a plot mad during a very violent seemingly indefinite nuclear war) an acceptable CB, I remember many of the Karma alliances being entirely critical of NPO in the numerous instances it utilized a plot as a cB...

This CB is just as unacceptable as would be NPO utilizing a spying CB against all former Vox members...

[Galapagos]

Big talk coming from the constant 13th place guys.

Couldn't be arsed to come up with an actual response? You're nothing but a homer.

As for Athens directing a new world hegemony, nobody said that. Athens are utterly incapable of commanding the respect needed to ever attempt such a thing, even if they wanted to. Their depressing track record and poor showing today puts that fact beyond any reasonable doubt.

[Ejayrazz]

What did they actually do that constitutes espionage, though?

So far the evidence points at nothing.

Well, this splinter group is a sub-faction of espionage, but I took the word our for argument sake.

The problem is ZH still existed after the 'war', which raises many eyebrows. Why not just discontinue it right from scratch? I hear Shuru saying it was a internal group eventually leaving TPF, but it seems highly coincidental they left exactly when the war ended?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[Alterego]

Well, this splinter group is a sub-faction of espionage, but I took the word our for argument sake.

The problem is ZH still existed after the 'war', which raises many eyebrows. Why not just discontinue it right from scratch? I hear Shuru saying it was a internal group eventually leaving TPF, but it seems highly coincidental they left exactly when the war ended?

Kind of like replacing innocent with guilty "for argument sake"

[Ejayrazz]

Kind of like replacing innocent with guilty "for argument sake"

I really don't feel like arguing over words and definitions right now. Spying or not, questions need to be answered -- especially Tyga's.

[Kzoppistan]

Well, this splinter group is a sub-faction of espionage, but I took the word our for argument sake.

The problem is ZH still existed after the 'war', which raises many eyebrows. Why not just discontinue it right from scratch? I hear Shuru saying it was a internal group eventually leaving TPF, but it seems highly coincidental they left exactly when the war ended?

Why don't you ask them why they stayed together and then gave falsified information to their new protectors?

I would be curious to hear their response.

[Haflinger]

The problem is ZH still existed after the 'war', which raises many eyebrows. Why not just discontinue it right from scratch? I hear Shuru saying it was a internal group eventually leaving TPF, but it seems highly coincidental they left exactly when the war ended?

Zero Hour left TPF due to conflicts with other TPF leadership.

[Gobb]

Apparently that brother was fighting on a side against another brother of someone who thought he'd get a beating for ever, later on the alleged attacker as in your post, agreed to peace out with EVERYONE and even gave out candies to all the kids and kept his promise of not beating up the kid brothers of the big brothers.

Hey remember that kid Valhalla who only made peace with specific kids leaving a whole lot of other Karma kids without formal peace?

"1. Valhalla formally surrenders to the collective forces of Umbrella, Kronos, Poison Clan, Random Insanity Alliance, Fark, Coalition of Royal Allied Powers, Internet Superheroes, and Alpha Omega."

He did announce neutrality, but I don't think it's enough..

Oh man, he's still at war with like half of Bob

[Ejayrazz]

Zero Hour left TPF due to conflicts with other TPF leadership.

When?

@Kzoppistan:

I am patiently waiting for a response to both my responses and Tyga's.

[Alterego]

I really don't feel like arguing over words and definitions right now. Spying or not, questions need to be answered -- especially Tyga's.

Looks like no questions were asked. It was DoW by a massively superior force of 4 alliances against 1. Is this the actions that should be taken when someone thinks "questions need to be answered" of is it just more business as usual by Athens with help from their Karma cronies.

[Chief Savage Man]

Looks like no questions were asked. It was DoW by a massively superior force of 4 alliances against 1. Is this the actions that should be taken when someone thinks "questions need to be answered" of is it just more business as usual by Athens with help from their Karma cronies.

You act as if we didn't take TPF's many treaties into consideration. We fully expect this war to escalate beyond this level. Just as GW2 started as GOONS and Co. beating down a little Fark and just as the Karma War started with NPO beating down a little OV, this war will most likely escalate.

[Kzoppistan]

Again, I ask allies of RoK, GOD, Athens, and \m/, to seek the path of what is right, to confer with them, to push for true justice, and work to find a diplomatic solution to this. Who ever takes the lead in those negotiations will undoubtedly earn the esteem of many citizens of Planet Bob.

Don't worry, sooner or later, maybe even as soon as Jan. a legitimate cause for war will happen upon us that will not stain the reputation of the aggressors.

In the meantime, we can watch RIA and NSO kick each other in the infra.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[Trace]

One thing I would like to point out, is that this never stopped due to mhawk realizing that 'this is bad, I shouldn't be doing this' and it also did not stop because the war was over. In fact, what mhawk said is that the only reason this particular aspect of his infiltration efforts stopped was due to a falling out between him and ZH. Nowhere does it say that he actually ordered them to cease operations, or that he even admits to wrongdoings (I'm sorry, but setting up a splinter cell specifically to destabilize someone not even engaged with you from within is NOT within the realms of what I would call wartime operations, no matter how you want to spin it). Due to this, there is nothing to prove that he has ceased his attempts to destroy Athens, and nothing to reassure Athens that their security is safe while he is at the helm.

[Alterego]

You act as if we didn't take TPF's many treaties into consideration. We fully expect this war to escalate beyond this level. Just as GW2 started as GOONS and Co. beating down a little Fark and just as the Karma War started with NPO beating down a little OV, this war will most likely escalate.

Good to see you are acknowledging comparing Karmas actions to those earlier incidents which have long since been accepted as vile acts that helped lead to the eventual demise/defeat of those aggressors.

edit:bad edit

Edited December 27, 2009 by Alterego

[Chief Savage Man]

Good to see you are acknowledging Karmas actions to those earlier incidents which have long since been accepted as vile acts that helped lead to the eventual demise/defeat of those aggressors.

The first example ended with a huge victory for the aggressors. What's your point?

[Kzoppistan]

One thing I would like to point out, is that this never stopped due to mhawk realizing that 'this is bad, I shouldn't be doing this' and it also did not stop because the war was over. In fact, what mhawk said is that the only reason this particular aspect of his infiltration efforts stopped was due to a falling out between him and ZH. Nowhere does it say that he actually ordered them to cease operations, or that he even admits to wrongdoings (I'm sorry, but setting up a splinter cell specifically to destabilize someone not even engaged with you from within is NOT within the realms of what I would call wartime operations, no matter how you want to spin it). Due to this, there is nothing to prove that he has ceased his attempts to destroy Athens, and nothing to reassure Athens that their security is safe while he is at the helm.

Perhaps a show of such commitment towards new relations would help?

[Chief Savage Man]

Perhaps a show of such commitment towards new relations would help?

No.

[Ejayrazz]

Looks like no questions were asked. It was DoW by a massively superior force of 4 alliances against 1. Is this the actions that should be taken when someone thinks "questions need to be answered" of is it just more business as usual by Athens with help from their Karma cronies.

If they are so apparent about their innocence, then I am open minded enough to give them the chance to explain by answering some interesting questions which have been brought up, but ignored.

If I was a cronie, I'd be narrow minded and not open to hearing both sides. I am a mere observer.