The Phoenix Federation Response to war.

[Haflinger]

You should have. I think I speak for all of us when I say that.

This is probably correct, but for reasons unrelated to this DoW.

[Archon]

So...any evidence of this happening with Mhawk's approval AFTER the karma war yet?

Forgive the double post, but what does it matter? Speaking as an observer, not as a declarer of war (just so all the OMG KARMAAA EEVVVIIILLLL people don't get on my $@! for asking a simple question)

[der_ko]

Isn't that what they tried during Karma as well?

No, not in the slightest. If anyone tried to kill off TPF it was Mhawk and his stubbornness.

[Ejayrazz]

Forgive the double post, but what does it matter? Speaking as an observer, not as a declarer of war (just so all the OMG KARMAAA EEVVVIIILLLL people don't get on my $@! for asking a simple question)

Because I am hearing mix stories from Athens and Ragnarok. Some are saying it kept occurring after Karma, while others are stating it was because it occurred during karma, even though Athens and TPF never formally were engaged in warfare. We know it occurred during karma war, but not after.

Either way, Tyga brought up some interesting points which I agree to. But instead of jumping to one side, I'd just like to know if there is any evidence this kept occurring AFTER the war ended, because apart of me doesn't see them coming forward 'out of the kindness of their heart,' but rather out of bitterness.

It's just for clarification sake, I'd rather ask questions and get straight answers than jumping too quickly without hearing both sides. So, in a sense, it doesn't matter, but in a sense, it does to me so people can get their stories straight from both sides. I am not here to defend him, but rather build an accurate depiction.

Hope that clears things up you evil karma over mind.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Ejayrazz

[shahenshah]

...

Did TPF violate the terms you signed on..specifically this: Yes/No?

Article II ~ ZI lists and wars

TPF formally releases all nations from any ZI, PZI, or EZI lists and declares a white peace in all wars against any nation, alliance affiliation, or alliance that is not the undersigned. TPF releases all claims on all alliances (including surrender terms but not treaty partners) and alliance affiliations other than The Phoenix Federation and applicable applicant alliance affiliations.

No offensive war or spy attack may be launched against any nation except ghosts and rogues against TPF for the duration of these terms, under the provisions outlined in Article IV.

[Hayzell]

I have never been a fan of TPF, but anytime war is declared without an attempt at diplomacy leaves a bad taste in my mouth. TPF does not seem to have been receiving intel or coordinating with ZH post-Karma, and this issue is 6 months old so I believe this could have been settled peacefully if the declaring side so wished.

But, PB has got its war, so cheers to all who have been waiting for this.

[Captain Flinders]

No, not in the slightest. If anyone tried to kill off TPF it was Mhawk and his stubbornness.

Said what I was going to say. The only reason TPF took as much damage they did in the Karma war was because of Mhawk. And facy that, seems to be the same reason here too...

[erikz]

There will be MADP's honored @ next update?

[KaitlinK]

"The statue of limitation" and the "it was done while at war" amuses me greatly for the simple fact that, if thats the case, then why didnt TPF say to Athens btw we set this plan in motion and here are the logs of what we planned with ZH at the end of the Karma war? You cant say its cause they liked ZH because Mhawk seems to have gone to great lengths to show us they cant stand the ZH leadership. In my world acts of war are suppose stop, I dont know, when the war ends?

I dont expect MHawk to answer me but hopefully he is explaining this to his closest allies some of whom I happen to adore. Hopefully he is explaining how this wasnt an act of agression he planned, put into action, then swept under the rug when it blew up. If he cant then requesting military support of your agressive action and having allies defend your attempts to infiltrate and spy on Athens is just sad.

We all know most of us like a good war, I just hope those that come to the defense of TPF are actually defending the actions of TPF and MHawk. Its going to be interesting to see who stands up for this type of spying and acts of infiltration.

Edited December 27, 2009 by KaitlinK

[Kzoppistan]

Let me pose this question (it came to me in a query with someone)

If you were on the receiving end of this plot what would your alliance do? Or what would you expect them to do? No matter when you found out.

I bet 99% of you would crush the other alliance. The other 1% of you are lying.

People can plan all they want. If I were to learn of some one currently plotting against me or my allies, not plotting done months ago and not acted upon, and had proof, I would take them to the table for an appropriate recourse.

Even if TPF was in the wrong, and if Athens had any real proof of current wrong doings, they could win a much better bounty at the negotiation table than by this fool-hardy waste of their own resources. That they didn't even stop to utilize their diplomatic options shows that they either cannot think in that way, or they really just wanted to hurt something.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Kzoppistan

[HalfEmpty]

There will be MADP's honored @ next update?

Of course! There hasn't been a curb-stomp in weeks!

Don't worry. We're a push-over.

FREE TECH!

[erikz]

Of course! There hasn't been a curb-stomp in weeks!

Don't worry. We're a push-over.

FREE TECH!

I mean TPF's allies.

I would be very pissed off when opportunist alliances jump on this, that would truly be pathetic.

[Haflinger]

I would be very pissed off when opportunist alliances jump on this, that would truly be pathetic.

That has already happened.

[Captain Flinders]

Even if TPF was in the wrong, and if Athens had any real proof of current wrong doings, they could win a much better bounty at the negotiation table than by this fool-hardy waste of their own resources. That they didn't even stop to utilize their diplomatic options shows that they either cannot think in that way, or they really just wanted to hurt something.

Or setting the bar for how Athens will respond to such offenses. At very least sending a strongly worded message.

[Archon]

Did TPF violate the terms you signed on..specifically this: Yes/No?

I don't see your point. Like, I really don't. And I'm not about to fall into some Socratic trap, so you might as well throw it all out.

[erikz]

That has already happened.

Wait, RoK and Athens are not really bandwagonning, but I agree with you on \m/ (at least I think you're pointing your finger at them?).

[Kzoppistan]

Or setting the bar for how Athens will respond to such offenses. At very least sending a strongly worded message.

There have been no offenses perpetrated. Only plans in the midst of war months ago. No harm has come to Athens because of TPF's wartime strategy. This is a blatant and unjust attack on some one they don't like.

[Captain Flinders]

There have been no offenses perpetrated. Only plans in the midst of war months ago. No harm has come to Athens because of TPF's wartime strategy. This is a blatant and unjust attack on some one they don't like.

I'm not sure where this idea came from, but not all alliances see targeted and intentionally disruptive spying and a-ok during anytime, including war.

[Kzoppistan]

I'm not sure where this idea came from, but not all alliances see targeted and intentionally disruptive spying and a-ok during anytime, including war.

Point out what spying actually happened, and I'll agree.

[AirMe]

There have been no offenses perpetrated. Only plans in the midst of war months ago. No harm has come to Athens because of TPF's wartime strategy. This is a blatant and unjust attack on some one they don't like.

Ok, I will pull it out and lay it on the table.

If I found about a plot to infiltrate my alliance and destroy it from the inside out. No matter what the time frame, war would be my first reaction. There are somethings you just don't do in my book. Senator Sanctions during war, Color rushes to take a senate seat and infiltrating an alliance in an effort to destroy them are just not things that I can in good conscience condone.

[Paradox]

That has already happened.

It's not opportunism if alliances honor their treaties with nations that issued the CB's.

[cookavich]

Ok, I will pull it out and lay it on the table.

If I found about a plot to infiltrate my alliance and destroy it from the inside out. No matter what the time frame, war would be my first reaction. There are somethings you just don't do in my book. Senator Sanctions during war, Color rushes to take a senate seat and infiltrating an alliance in an effort to destroy them are just not things that I can in good conscience condone.

The issue is that things took place while TPF was engaged in a total war with no real end in sight. As such, in my mind these actions took place as apart of the Karma war, a conflict which is long since over.

[Kzoppistan]

Ok, I will pull it out and lay it on the table.

If I found about a plot to infiltrate my alliance and destroy it from the inside out. No matter what the time frame, war would be my first reaction.

Then you would be in the same mess Athens is in right now. Perhaps the best action would be to get the facts first.

[erikz]

It's not opportunism if alliances honor their treaties with nations that issued the CB's.

Of course it is. TPF was already hugely outnumbered after RoK and Athens declared on them, the declarations by both \m/ and GOD are hugely opportunistic if you ask me. Just easy tech. Deplorable really.

Edited December 27, 2009 by erikz

[Captain Flinders]

Point out what spying actually happened, and I'll agree.

Ugh, read the threads for yourself. Here's a few to get you started.

[4:38:29 AM] DrunkMonkey: 01[03:51] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> i still believe the best chance for revenge is to catch them off guard and go for the kill

[03:53] <mhawk> lol

[03:53] <mhawk> they are little !@#$%* kids

[03:53] <mhawk> in for a blanket party

01[03:53] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> indeed

[03:53] <mhawk> however you guys feel you can hurt them the worst

[03:53] <mhawk> do it

[03:53] <mhawk> one idea

[03:53] <mhawk> was after you get some press

[03:53] <mhawk> make some pr things

[03:54] <mhawk> about no zi

[03:54] <mhawk> real idiotic pr things

[03:54] <mhawk> that pander to them

[03:54] <mhawk> then start recruiting maybe

[03:54] <mhawk> from them

01[03:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> yeah

[03:54] <mhawk> they will then have to destroy you

[03:54] <mhawk> or back off

[03:54] <mhawk> one idea

[03:54] <mhawk> is merge into sparta

[03:54] <mhawk> and hurt those $%&@es

[04:00] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> so we can sit back and monitor their relationship and build ZH and see if we can't impress sparta along the way

[04:00] <mhawk> spies

[04:00] <mhawk> and works with them

[04:00] <mhawk> yup

[04:00] <mhawk> trash talk tpf

[04:01] <mhawk> if you need to

[01:49] <mhawk> ou dont think merging into them

[01:49] <mhawk> then making break off alliances aka pc

[01:49] <mhawk> is good?

Now before you say it, obviously these logs here don't prove it went down. But other posts in the other threads do indicate it went down. ANd that may only be the stuff that has surfaced so far. Who knows how deep the rabbit hole goes.