cmf0203 Posted December 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 To think we cancelled based solely on those 2 logs are well, foolish. R&R isn't that type of alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSpawn Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 If you can show me where ODN tried to get RnR to leave a bloc....other than just talking about it....I will gladly eat my words. When it comes down to it, politics is a game of manipulation. However, if you refuse to be manipulated you have nothing to worry about. There is no proof that ODN acted upon this discussion. If you are going to prosecute them on that, then you should probably prosecute me for discussing ways to tear the NpO away from the NPO when i was leading the NAAC. AirMe, does OUT count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonely Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) We have all seen South Park, no need for the hamster jokes. As for Petty.. in what way? Just curious because I have been a member of R&R for over 3 years now.. I can't remember a single instance where selfishness has been a factor in canceling a treaty. I suggest you ask your own government for logs of the way they've conducted themselves for the past few months towards ODN and then get back to me. To be fair, I've only seen a couple of them, but that's more than enough. I mean, Gofastleft and friends kicked up a fuss about Proximus giving some advice to an allied government member about a vote recount? How pathetic. Really, I can't believe that entire issue was brought up again, for $%&@'s sake, it happened in September. Your hamster must be one hell of a guy. Don't you know it. He's got quite a GOD complex, that one. Edited December 18, 2009 by The Lonely Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicalTrevor Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Like hypothetically getting an alliance to leave a bloc so that they can be in your power sphere and hypothetically talking about dominating another alliance. Every alliance has these sorts of discussions yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 AirMe, does OUT count? I'm an inny, thank you for asking though. Can you point me to the evidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The AUT Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 If you can show me where ODN tried to get RnR to leave a bloc....other than just talking about it....I will gladly eat my words. When it comes down to it, politics is a game of manipulation. However, if you refuse to be manipulated you have nothing to worry about. There is no proof that ODN acted upon this discussion. If you are going to prosecute them on that, then you should probably prosecute me for discussing ways to tear the NpO away from the NPO when i was leading the NAAC. Well come on AirMe. You know the value of friendship first hand. Sometimes your friends are just that, your friends and you'd go to ZI for them no questions asked. That's what a true friend does, at least. And not just an ally who plays that type of game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 The logs that kicked off GW3. VincentXander, leader of GATO, was talking about scenarios in which the NPO could be defeated with Sir Galahad of the Legion. Logs were leaked to the NPO and thus we had GW3. It's my understanding that it's more about the problems with Proximus and GFL than the leaked logs, but the logs hit at a time where the relationship was already stressed. The straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I asked the very same question of my alliance and voiced your specific concern earlier in the week. Needless to say I was encouraged to hear that it dealt with more than that. And as Heft stated, R&R tends to make decisions like this based on what they feel is right, not based on political motive. ODN has always been very friendly towards R&R. Matter of fact the vast majority of our alliance from what I have seen publicly has supported them. We have several former members who call ODN home and nobody once questioned the integrity of ODN's membership. But certain alliances tend to veer away from one another on the diplomatic from more than simple spam exchanges and friendly discussions. Never politically ambitious and always in the best interests of the alliance.. I trust the words of my Triumivr and I am not some simple blind follower, in the end its all about R&R and what is best for our membership and the future of our allies. A personal note, I hope relations with ODN improve. If there are issues, a MDP does not benefit either alliance if we cannot be on the same page. So this is where we look forward to improving relations. Everyone else here can speculate and point fingers, hell they can even support us.. but it changes nothing about the true nature of why this needed to happen. I trust you. But people got defensive when I voiced concerned so I am running with it. The conversations on their own aren't damning. But if there are actions that prove they put the plan into motion, good on you R&R you stood up for yourself and that's to be commended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xiphosis Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'll just get this out of the way. The logs had a hand in it, undoubtedly. The lingering doubt RnR's had about whether Proximus had meddled in their internal affairs, combined with the implication that they considered them something to be manipulated, was definitely the last cracks in the dam. When the levels of trust have fallen as far as they have between these two, keeping a treaty is senseless. That's politics for you. You don't stay allied to people you don't have confidence in anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AirMe Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I'll just get this out of the way. The logs had a hand in it, undoubtedly. The lingering doubt RnR's had about whether Proximus had meddled in their internal affairs, combined with the implication that they considered them something to be manipulated, was definitely the last cracks in the dam. When the levels of trust have fallen as far as they have between these two, keeping a treaty is senseless. That's politics for you. You don't stay allied to people you don't have confidence in anymore. Someone call Satan and tell him to turn up the heat because hell is about to freeze over. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Someone call Satan and tell him to turn up the heat because hell is about to freeze over.I agree. AIRME AND XIPHOSIS HAVE AGREED ON SOMETHING A war is about to happen. Citadel vs. CnG vs. SF!. Let's do this. Edited December 18, 2009 by SpacingOutMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 AIRME AND XIPHOSIS HAVE AGREED ON SOMETHINGA war is about to happen. Citadel vs. CnG vs. SF!. Let's do this. War? SirWilliam votes YES. But lets get Citadel and C&G and SF on one side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptGodzilla Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I am not sad to see this. Good luck R&R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juslen Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 I suggest you ask your own government for logs of the way they've conducted themselves for the past few months towards ODN and then get back to me. To be fair, I've only seen a couple of them, but that's more than enough. I mean, Gofastleft and friends kicked up a fuss about Proximus giving some advice to an allied government member about a vote recount? How pathetic. Really, I can't believe that entire issue was brought up again, for $%&@'s sake, it happened in September.Don't you know it. He's got quite a GOD complex, that one. Fair enough. The thing is, you don't need to use hamster jokes to make that point. Instead it looks as if you have some type of chip on your shoulder, no better than those you ridicule. Believe it or not, when that recount issue was brought up.. the majority of R&R members voted against GFL and the issue of Proximus never became a major issue. Our MOFA at the time was also involved in those talks with Proxi and is currently running for Triumvir. So that goes to show how the membership supports doing what is right even if its against a popular figure such as GFL. That should speak volumes about the integrity of the membership. Lesser alliances would have been broken apart and I believe many of R&R's closest allies worried about our future. Yet here we stand. If not for our leadership AND our members doing what is right no matter its popularity we would have dissolved years ago as an alliance. So I assure you a IRC log is only part of the reason why this MDP was canceled. Does anyone care about this inside information? Probably not.. but every single R&R member who reads it and perhaps those who used to call R&R home will fully understand it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fronz Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 War? SirWilliam votes YES. But lets get Citadel and C&G and SF on one side. Not into trying new things? I hear 3 way is exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haflinger Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Ah, ODN, ODN. If you'd only stuck around with me, instead of running away, I could've told you that using !@#$%* was a terrible idea. Of course when CDT logs got leaked, they showed us scheming to protect ourselves, while yours kindof show you scheming to undermine your allies' position and make them your puppets. So maybe it's just as well. Can't say I blame R&R here. Maybe they didn't just act on the logs I just found here, but I wouldn't blame them if they had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groucho Marx Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 (edited) Congratulations R&R. Also, ODN...!@#$%* is bad mmkay You would know, wouldn't you? Edited December 18, 2009 by Emperor Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEd Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Every alliance has these sorts of discussions yes. Indeed they do; however once you start plotting to "internally" or even have some sort of "foreign" control over another alliance I think your overstepping your bounds and the trust of your treaty partners. It's all good when its "hypothetical" if even that...because when your talking about it...then you can assume there's a plan behind it... tl;dr no alliance likes to be looked at as a puppet of another alliance. Best of luck to our allies in the ODN. Hopefully this all blows over soon enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EgoFreaky Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 It's my understanding that it's more about the problems with Proximus and GFL than the leaked logs, but the logs hit at a time where the relationship was already stressed. The straw that broke the camel's back, as it were. If that were the case we would have canceled 3 months ago wouldn't you think It's just a combination of things not just one or 2, a treaty like this you don't cancel because of one incident or 1 leaked log. You cancel it because the trust is fundamentaly damaged. Now hopefully we are able to regain that again because there's no doubt ODN until not so long ago has always been a great ally to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mixoux Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Allready been oversaid, but there was obviously quite a few spread out events that contributed to an already declining relationship. Glad to see this announcement and a fair amount of drama. Good job R&R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Not into trying new things? I hear 3 way is exciting. You down for a losing war? Yeah, me neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 War? SirWilliam votes YES. But lets get Citadel and C&G and SF on one side. But where is the fun in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFish Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 Not into trying new things? I hear 3 way is exciting. Nope. It's Citadel and C&G and SF versus CSN. The sides have been decided, DoW at update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twizzler Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 An unfortunate end. Good luck with wherever the wind takes you R&R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted December 18, 2009 Report Share Posted December 18, 2009 But where is the fun in that? Where is the fun in this (this being the present state of things)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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