This has gone on long enough

[New Frontier]

Well well well, GGA Blue has come to seek forgiveness.

[Homura]

I believe its time to move towards a better future.

o/

If that was your intent, you failed miserably. Rather than wallowing in self-pity over your past mistakes and claiming privileged information in response to challenges to your distorted version of facts, I highly suggest you work on seeking redemption rather than claiming "this has gone on long enough". You've just made it that much more difficult for anyone to trust you again.

I personally recommend travelling through the wilderness of nuclear bombardment, where the future's so bright, you'll have to wear shades. B)

[Nintenderek]

Moderator I believe the OP has asked for a lock on this one please? o

This is one of those times where I'm really glad you can't request locks any more.

I just want to know what he did with the information I gave him prior to the Karma War...and why he spent at least some portion of that war cowering while others bled.

Nice bluff, but for some reason I find it hard to believe you gave him the information he's talking about in the OP.

[Thistledown]

In hindsight, [this thread] was a mistake. People are set in their ways and are not willing to view another perspective.

This basically summarizes the thread. Saying that you were "responsible" for mistakes but putting the real blame on everyone else. You give lip service to saying that you were responsible for what BLEU became, but then paint yourselves as not as bad for trying to free themselves of a monster- which implies that you weren't condoning the really bad things. You say you weren't ready to turn tail and flee at the merest whispers of problems with NpO without even confirming the evidence, you were victims of misinformation.

Man up. You screwed up big time.

Moderator I believe the OP has asked for a lock on this one please? o

I don't think they do that anymore.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Thistledown

[Groucho Marx]

Echelon is clearly an honorable and dependable alliance. Probably one of the best on Bob.

[wickedj]

Echelon is clearly an honorable and dependable alliance. Probably one of the best on Bob.

Oh, EM

[magicninja]

LMAO.

This is not the story I heard while I was gov at TPF. Don't do it Grub. They sold you guys out.

[Neo Anglia]

I don't think they do that anymore.

Orly? Thanks, good to know

[Groucho Marx]

Oh, EM

Whatchya talkin' bout Willis? I mean it.

[lordliam]

A Message from the Desk of Caffine

Note, not my actual desk.

First of all, I'd like to note that I am in no way speaking for Echelon, nor am I representing Echelon's viewpoint of the issue.

I stopped reading there.

[Otherworld]

Firstly, I would like to thank Caffine for bringing an issue that should be either sorted privately or forgotten to the forefront of public attention.

Secondly, I would like to thank the usual "OMG Echelon suk lol" crowd for their usual performance. Seriously, this happenned how long ago now? We have a completely different set of leaders, so why hold this against us? Yes Echelon made a mistake. Yes Echelon has paid for it (Karma war). We aren't asking for everybody to suddenly just be best friends with us again, just stop holding one single.. solitary mistake against us.

Thanks

[Dochartaigh]

Firstly, I would like to thank Caffine for bringing an issue that should be either sorted privately or forgotten to the forefront of public attention.

Secondly, I would like to thank the usual "OMG Echelon suk lol" crowd for their usual performance. Seriously, this happenned how long ago now? We have a completely different set of leaders, so why hold this against us? Yes Echelon made a mistake. Yes Echelon has paid for it (Karma war). We aren't asking for everybody to suddenly just be best friends with us again, just stop holding one single.. solitary mistake against us.

Thanks

i would ask why, when Grub was made leader of Polaris did Echelon continue to hold ES's actions against Polaris along with others?

this issue will not go away until Echelon owns up to its past. sweeping it under the rug will only allow it to fester. unless you are going for not being friends let alone allied to those former allies you betrayed in BLEU...

i honestly hope you go at least private in these issues because going with the forgetting will not get you what you want.

[Rush Sykes]

Truth be told, this thread offers the perfect forum for Echelon to oblige the public with a cleansing, full disclosure. This, however, will not happen because they are in a mode set to protect what little bit of their word is still tied to honor. Sadly, they refuse to recognize this as an opportunity to not just say "we were wrong", but to tell the world why they were wrong. Personally, I am glad they do not take this path. Few alliances in the course of Planet Bob have so deserved the disdain that this alliance has well earned. If they are content to let it fester and be forever damaged, so be it.

[ChairmanHal]

lol did you just admit that I think you did? I mean we all knew it but still.

I'm honestly not sure why you would give a flying duck, but he asked on IRC, I told him what I knew. The war is long over, I have nothing to hide.

My recollection is that we had more than three separate conversations about what was about to transpire sometime in early to mid-April. He is free to correct the dates, but it was definitely after I arrived at Valhalla.

That should have given Echelon weeks to prepare for the war...or tell NPO to watch for a trap, or whatever. Apparently that didn't happen. Meh.

[ChairmanHal]

Nice bluff, but for some reason I find it hard to believe you gave him the information he's talking about in the OP.

Oh no, he's going way back to a time long before that, which is puzzling, save for the fact that he wants history to reflect what actually happened as opposed to some b.s. version. Given the tendency for certain people around here to warp history to suit their agenda or make themselves out to be bigger heroes than they actually were, I salute the effort, but....

[TheEraser]

I can confirm I've talked to Caffine more in the past week than in the past year. It'll be a rocky, uphill road for Echelon to garner the type of standing they had with the former BLEU signatories again. But props for trying, and I believe Caffine is making an honest effort.

Empi, i doubt that caffine even knows what an honest effort even looks like.

This thread is a great way to bring old wounds to the surface, and Echelon's attempt to brush it under the rug only reaffirms my disdain for them.

Next time you try to set the facts straight, you might try not lying through your teeth about what actually happened.

[Moridin]

An interesting way to spin it but no, I was trying to get Echelon into One Vision for months. The decision to leave BLEU was made, as I explained in the original post, much later.

Yeah, much later once that became the price to join One Vision. I don't think this thread would be complete without:

[19:01] <Dilber|dinner> and I've dangled 1v entry in front of Echelon in exchange for BLEU

You sold out your allies because you wanted a seat at the table with the big boys. It's amusing to see this spun as anything other than cowardly backstabbing.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Moridin

[Tygaland]

i would ask why, when Grub was made leader of Polaris did Echelon continue to hold ES's actions against Polaris along with others?

this issue will not go away until Echelon owns up to its past. sweeping it under the rug will only allow it to fester. unless you are going for not being friends let alone allied to those former allies you betrayed in BLEU...

So many from "that" side of the treaty web expect their alliances actions to be washed away with a new government yet none of them were willing to give NpO that courtesy after Sponge was removed as Emperor. It is not all that surprising to the see the "hey, this is old let's just forget about it!" routine.

A number of alliances say they are keen on repairing strained relationships with other alliances but are unwilling to do anything about it.

[Doitzel]

I'm honestly not sure why you would give a flying duck, but he asked on IRC, I told him what I knew. The war is long over, I have nothing to hide.

My recollection is that we had more than three separate conversations about what was about to transpire sometime in early to mid-April. He is free to correct the dates, but it was definitely after I arrived at Valhalla.

That should have given Echelon weeks to prepare for the war...or tell NPO to watch for a trap, or whatever. Apparently that didn't happen. Meh.

Sorry, wasn't aware you were actually in the habit of flaunting that you betrayed your former alliance and its allies for no good reason and handed out priveleged information entrusted to you in order to advance your own career. Even I gave you a bit more credit than that! Silly me, always the optimist.

So many from "that" side of the treaty web expect their alliances actions to be washed away with a new government yet none of them were willing to give NpO that courtesy after Sponge was removed as Emperor. It is not all that surprising to the see the "hey, this is old let's just forget about it!" routine.

That's really the best part about all this. I'm so glad Caffine brought it up.

[Dochartaigh]

So many from "that" side of the treaty web expect their alliances actions to be washed away with a new government yet none of them were willing to give NpO that courtesy after Sponge was removed as Emperor. It is not all that surprising to the see the "hey, this is old let's just forget about it!" routine.

A number of alliances say they are keen on repairing strained relationships with other alliances but are unwilling to do anything about it.

i agree completely with this statement. Polaris was not forgiven the moment they got a new Emperor and a new gov. The old sins of the old gov still stained Polaris until even after the war when many alliances waited to see if Polaris had changed. I know this first hand from discussions held with many people that fought against Polaris in the SPW.

[raasaa]

I will confirm the following however. I had no knowledge of Echelon's intentions re BLEU until Sam and his band of thugs tried to engineer the removal of Polaris from BLEU by back stabbing in the corridors of power. Most of our allies didn't buy the bullcrap and stayed loyal and committed allies... and are to this day some of our closest friends.. and Echelon and MCXA choose their path.

I will confirm that both these alliances received information from a source we were close to at the time but rapidly grew away from.

I will confirm the information they received was faulty and indeed largely false.

I will confirm that blind freddy could have seen that and that a real ally would have stood by their friends rather than take the pieces of silver on offer.

o/

As the Emperor of Nueva Vida at that time, i can confirm that both these alliances tried to feed the same information to Nueva Vida, trying to convince us to break all ties with NpO....

@ Caffine

I have no idea why you even brought this up. Till the time you queried me on IRC, i had assumed that Echelon had disbanded or died....

You have revived an issue that was long dead and forgotten. With a complete change of government, i would suggest that Echelon pursue new allies and a different path, before trying to patch up old ties with former allies.

[ChairmanHal]

Sorry, wasn't aware you were actually in the habit of flaunting that you betrayed your former alliance and its allies for no good reason and handed out priveleged information entrusted to you in order to advance your own career. Even I gave you a bit more credit than that! Silly me, always the optimist.

That's really the best part about all this. I'm so glad Caffine brought it up.

You are the last person on any planet in the Universe who should talk about betraying their former alliances, ever.

Do yourself a favor...shut up. You're so off base here you couldn't find your way back with a compass and map.

[Van Hoo III]

You are the last person on any planet in the Universe who should talk about betraying their former alliances, ever.

Do yourself a favor...shut up. You're so off base here you couldn't find your way back with a compass and map.

He's not that far off base.

[wickedj]

You are the last person on any planet in the Universe who should talk about betraying their former alliances, ever.

Do yourself a favor...shut up. You're so off base here you couldn't find your way back with a compass and map.

Oh the irony...it hurts

[ChairmanHal]

He's not that far off base.

I went from a Triumvir chair to absolutely no role in government...and have turned down chances to be involved as anything more than occasional recruiter and deluxe spear carrier since. I told Chefjoe what I knew because he was the leader of my alliance and it was my duty to do so. If I said anything to Caffine, it was as a favor to the ally of an ally.

No, he really is that far off base.