This has gone on long enough

[Penkala]

Haha, this post makes no sense.

Haha, yes it does. I'm sure someone from \m/ has the slot usage, NS losses, etc. Polar was a lot more unprepared, fought hardly any offensive wars, and just sat back and 'took it'.

are you serious? which alliance is still around? that should tell you how well Polaris fared compared to \m/. nuff said on that subject.

Are YOU serious? \m/ was given terrible untenable terms. Polar was given terms they could survive. But no that doesn't affect the survival of the alliance at all, clearly NpO were the superior warriors!

you can't possibly be serious? comparing these two alliances is impossible. First off \m/ had no spine. Secondly the UJW wasn't nearly as lopsided as the 2nd great patriotic war. The coalition of cowards forced NpO under the harshest set of terms the game had seen at that period of time which included the expulsion a handful of polars best and brightest. A few alliances in that coalition dragged their feet with aid lists trying to make us miss the deadline for repayment and generally to make Polars life hell. Still Polaris bounced back faster and stronger than any alliance has ever been able to do, and probably ever will. Now we're the third alliance in the game with more nukes than anyone else. I can't seem to find \m/ anywhere though.

What the hell does any of what you just said have to do with how well you fought? Oh right, it doesn't!

Unjust war

September 9th. Unjust War begins.

September 19th \m/ disbands and lives on only as a collection of constantly weepings whiners.

noCB war

August 11th. War begins.

September 7th. Polar surrenders, rebuilds, and quickly moves back up the ranks surpasing its previous rankings and all the way to the #2 spot.

So yeah, almost exactly the same!

Did you polar too stupid to read? Seriously, dude. I didn't say anything about length of war. I said \m/ fought more effectively than Polar did (though for \m/ they figured they be disbanded at the end and when ES said all that it confirmed their fears I'd imagine, while Polar always knew Citadel wouldn't disband them. Hence the whole 'sticking together' thing. Don't let facts get in the way of your judgment though!)

And even though \m/ would have a lot more to whine about I've seen equal amounts of it from them and Polar, who were allowed peace terms though they hadn't allowed that for others that they'd fought. Please, spare me. Polar never faced being fought unto perpetuity, and \m/ did. Even then, you can't compare the two's decisions on whether to fight or not - circumstances were completely different. The difference I'm pointing out is \m/ declaring war and fighting and hurting others while Polar just bent over and took it.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Penkala

[astronaut jones]

Unjust war

September 9th. Unjust War begins.

September 19th \m/ disbands and lives on only as a collection of constantly weepings whiners.

noCB war

August 11th. War begins.

September 7th. Polar surrenders, rebuilds, and quickly moves back up the ranks surpasing its previous rankings and all the way to the #2 spot.

So yeah, almost exactly the same!

\m/ didn't even try. They caved. They folded. They had an opportunity to show people what they were really made of, and they did, it just wasn't what everyone thought they were made of. Cowardice. Not an ounce of fight, but enough quit to go around for days.

That is \m/. That WAS \m/. \m/ as an alliance was a failure, as leaders they all failed, and it is an alliance that is best forgotten.

That being said, NpO, when the time came, showed exactly what they were made of, and surprise surprise, they were actually made out of pretty solid stuff.

[Voytek]

Stabbing Polaris in the back was a brilliant political move, so just own up to it. Think about it, you used them to throw your weight around for a time, but then they were no longer useful because they brought more potential harm than good. Do you know how much damage Echelon could have taken if they fought with Polaris during noCB? It would have been a lot. Plus, by swapping sides you got into the high roller's club, 1V. That place is was exclusive. As a result of that move, you got some more friends to back you up in doing whatever you wanted, it was a truly great decision. Plus your buddy MCXA came with you, so even if you did end up fighting Polar it wouldn't be all that bad, who did they have left?

I'm trying to decide whether this is a joke or not.

[Penguin]

It's important to be realistic about the obstacles Polaris faced on the road to recovery. Heavy reparations and aid restrictions were speedbumps barely worth mentioning next to the greater challenges. Polaris's success (at least I feel we succeeded) had almost nothing to do with overcoming outside influences. The hardest task was setting about to patch up a flawed world view and inspire a membership to remain united as a community.

Had Polaris disbanded or had Polaris leaked members and never fully recovered from that war, I would like to think that no well-informed Polar would lay the blame for our destruction on our victorious enemies. Similarly, with \m/ it is my belief that their culture and government was ill-suited to the challenges of rebuilding and repairing their image, not necessarily by any flaw in design but by the consequences of its founding principles of member autonomy. I don't think it is necessary to ridicule \m/ for essentially not being the kind of alliance that was able to keep itself together, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to place that blame on any external entity as it has been done throughout history. On that note, Polaris's greatest success was not weathering a military defeat well (Penkala pokes fun at us for what he sees as a failure in this regard earlier in the thread), it was rebuilding the alliance culture, image, and community after the fighting had stopped. Since \m/ never reached this point, no honest comparison can be made.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Penguin

[Caliph]

\m/ didn't even try. They caved. They folded. They had an opportunity to show people what they were really made of, and they did, it just wasn't what everyone thought they were made of. Cowardice. Not an ounce of fight, but enough quit to go around for days.

That is \m/. That WAS \m/. \m/ as an alliance was a failure, as leaders they all failed, and it is an alliance that is best forgotten.

That being said, NpO, when the time came, showed exactly what they were made of, and surprise surprise, they were actually made out of pretty solid stuff.

caliph on Coldfront, query me if you want to talk about this.

That said, put \m/ back, get Polar and ban Polar's best leaders, and then have the other half of their leaders run to one of their allies, and then right when Polar gets a gov in place then DOW them and their allies in a huge war.

Then when one of Polars allies say something have \m/'s allies play the "OOC attack" trump card and get most of Polar's allies out of hte war immediately, and then tell Polar they can get the following terms: every members sends a personalized apology to every members of \m/, Polar becomes subservient to Polar and has a Viceroy indefinately but \m/ is under no obgliation to help Polar defend themselves, indefinately de-militerization and indefinate reps for an indefiante period.

Then see how well Polar does.

Like I said, the situations were different as \m/ had the ire of certain people in power at the time that Polar never had to deal with.

[TheEraser]

As a fellow veteran that has fought GDA, I have to say that isn't much to brag about.

You're mixing your terms up. The Coalition of Cowards is a term referring the group of seven alliances who all canceled on the NPO just as the Karma War was heating up. You're thinking of "Coalition", aka the worst named war coalition ever (yes, even worse than ~).

Nope i'm not mixing up anything. I know exactly who declared war on Polaris in the 2nd great patriotic war. They were cowards and opportunists of the highest class. Some of them have changed since then and some remain as opportunistic as ever. What NPO's "allies" did at the start of Karma was pathatic and that is a whole new level of spineless, but that doesn't make my statement about the alliances attacking polaris any less accurate.

Correction: \m/'s leaders at the time had no spine because our best ones had gotten banned not a month prior to that war starting and didn't want to get banned themselves.

And it was funny how \m/ got blamed, and still is getting blamed, for !@#$ the entire WUT did, for stuff MCXA participated in, for stuff the NPO participated in, for stuff GGA started, and for tech raiding which a huge number of alliances do today, but somehow by talking about tech raiding \m/ is worse.

Nah, \m/ had it worse because we had history rewritten around us to paint us worse than we were to justify keeping us down, we had the Black Friday events to thank for our turmoil ...I must've missesd the part where Polars best leaders were banned just before that war.

The situations aren't that similar, and there was a lot behind the scenes regarding \m/. We had problems, yes, but we didn't have the same hatred as Polar had, Polar did all the things they were accused us and paid for it. \m/ did some of the things we were accused of and were the scapegoat for several PR campaigns that tried to absolve certain alliances of all guilt.

\m/ had spine, but when you ban from the game the best and trusted leaders of an alliance, and put in place a spineless person who surrenders at the very first chance, what do you expect? We did as best we could given the circumstances.

I agree. comparing the scenarios is apples and oranges. and your leaders being banned sucks, but thats what having a depth of potential leaders is for. I don't really feel sorry that the only guys that were able to do something in the alliance got banned and everyone else sort of gave up, but i can understand why you guys. I don't really have any sort of beef with \m/ tbh.

[Penkala]

It's important to be realistic about the obstacles Polaris faced on the road to recovery. Heavy reparations and aid restrictions were speedbumps barely worth mentioning next to the greater challenges. Polaris's success (at least I feel we succeeded) had almost nothing to do with overcoming outside influences. The hardest task was setting about to patch up a flawed world view and inspire a membership to remain united as a community.

Had Polaris disbanded or had Polaris leaked members and never fully recovered from that war, I would like to think that no well-informed Polar would lay the blame for our destruction on our victorious enemies. Similarly, with \m/ it is my belief that their culture and government was ill-suited to the challenges of rebuilding and repairing their image, not necessarily by any flaw in design but by the consequences of its founding principles of member autonomy. I don't think it is necessary to ridicule \m/ for essentially not being the kind of alliance that was able to keep itself together, but at the same time I don't think it is fair to place that blame on any external entity as it has been done throughout history. On that note, Polaris's greatest success was not weathering a military defeat well (Penkala pokes fun at us for what he sees as a failure in this regard earlier in the thread), it was rebuilding the alliance culture, image, and community after the fighting had stopped.

I'm sorry, but \m/ faced the terms of "disband", you faced the terms of "reps". Yes, I like what you did. Yes, you overcame obstacles. But they were nothing like the obstacles that would have faced \m/ and you know it. And yeah, it does get a little annoying seeing NpO go "hahaha they caved" when, as I've said before, once NpO's number came up they essentially allowed their defensive slots to be filled, turned around, and waited for their imminent pounding. \m/ on the other hand fought until they ultimately caved rather than pull a FAN.

If Polars are going to come in here talking about how \m/ gave up easily I am going to bring up how Polar gave up easily during that war. I still have yet to see NS fall as fast as Polar's fell.

[astronaut jones]

caliph on Coldfront, query me if you want to talk about this.

That said, put \m/ back, get Polar and ban Polar's best leaders, and then have the other half of their leaders run to one of their allies, and then right when Polar gets a gov in place then DOW them and their allies in a huge war.

Then when one of Polars allies say something have \m/'s allies play the "OOC attack" trump card and get most of Polar's allies out of hte war immediately, and then tell Polar they can get the following terms: every members sends a personalized apology to every members of \m/, Polar becomes subservient to Polar and has a Viceroy indefinately but \m/ is under no obgliation to help Polar defend themselves, indefinately de-militerization and indefinate reps for an indefiante period.

Then see how well Polar does.

Like I said, the situations were different as \m/ had the ire of certain people in power at the time that Polar never had to deal with.

But they didn't even TRY. They went to polar, everyone has seen the logs, they went to polar and gave up immediately. There was no fight in them, they were the ultimate paper tigers, a waste of space, a worthless alliance that doesn't deserve any praise after the fact. They could have soldiered on, but they didn't, because \m/ let the inmates run the asylum, and I know, because I was there when those things happened, but I was smart enough to get the hell out of dodge before the UjW and go back to TPF.

They didn't try. \m/, when they were put to the test, said "THIS TEST IS TOO HARD! I'M GOING HOME!" Everyone keeps harping about the reps, but they didn't even TRY to negotiate, they didn't even try to do anything positive. They gave up. And good riddance to them.

NpO, when put to the test, said "I can do this, I got this, this is a piece of cake." And they passed that test and came back stronger than ever.

[Caliph]

Nope i'm not mixing up anything. I know exactly who declared war on Polaris in the 2nd great patriotic war. They were cowards and opportunists of the highest class. Some of them have changed since then and some remain as opportunistic as ever. What NPO's "allies" did at the start of Karma was pathatic and that is a whole new level of spineless, but that doesn't make my statement about the alliances attacking polaris any less accurate.

I agree. comparing the scenarios is apples and oranges. and your leaders being banned sucks, but thats what having a depth of potential leaders is for. I don't really feel sorry that the only guys that were able to do something in the alliance got banned and everyone else sort of gave up, but i can understand why you guys. I don't really have any sort of beef with \m/ tbh.

We did have backup leaders. They left to NATO at the same time of Black Friday or right after, and we didn't start !@#$ with NATO because we had an MDP or MADP with them, and were our allies.

Funny how those allies refused to help us during that war, and actually aided our enemies and fought against us ...

I guess that treaty that we planned on honoring, like all our treaties, didn't mean jack to NATO but meant an obligation of defending NATO for \m/ ...

[Penguin]

I'm sorry, but \m/ faced the terms of "disband", you faced the terms of "reps". Yes, I like what you did. Yes, you overcame obstacles. But they were nothing like the obstacles that would have faced \m/ and you know it. And yeah, it does get a little annoying seeing NpO go "hahaha they caved" when, as I've said before, once NpO's number came up they essentially allowed their defensive slots to be filled, turned around, and waited for their imminent pounding. \m/ on the other hand fought until they ultimately caved rather than pull a FAN.

If Polars are going to come in here talking about how \m/ gave up easily I am going to bring up how Polar gave up easily during that war. I still have yet to see NS fall as fast as Polar's fell.

Talk about it all you want. Our pride is founded on other accomplishments.

[890765]

But they didn't even TRY. They went to polar, everyone has seen the logs, they went to polar and gave up immediately. There was no fight in them, they were the ultimate paper tigers, a waste of space, a worthless alliance that doesn't deserve any praise after the fact. They could have soldiered on, but they didn't, because \m/ let the inmates run the asylum, and I know, because I was there when those things happened,

Sounds like a pretty worthless group of people.

but I was smart enough to get the hell out of dodge before the UjW and go back to TPF.

Hmmmm...

They didn't try. \m/, when they were put to the test, said "THIS TEST IS TOO HARD! I'M GOING HOME!" Everyone keeps harping about the reps, but they didn't even TRY to negotiate, they didn't even try to do anything positive. They gave up. And good riddance to them.

Again:

but I was smart enough to get the hell out of dodge before the UjW and go back to TPF.

Good riddance to you sir.

[Caliph]

But they didn't even TRY. They went to polar, everyone has seen the logs, they went to polar and gave up immediately. There was no fight in them, they were the ultimate paper tigers, a waste of space, a worthless alliance that doesn't deserve any praise after the fact. They could have soldiered on, but they didn't, because \m/ let the inmates run the asylum, and I know, because I was there when those things happened, but I was smart enough to get the hell out of dodge before the UjW and go back to TPF.

They didn't try. \m/, when they were put to the test, said "THIS TEST IS TOO HARD! I'M GOING HOME!" Everyone keeps harping about the reps, but they didn't even TRY to negotiate, they didn't even try to do anything positive. They gave up. And good riddance to them.

NpO, when put to the test, said "I can do this, I got this, this is a piece of cake." And they passed that test and came back stronger than ever.

\m/'s test was this:

BAN half of their gov

The rest of the gov and backup gov leave to one of your allies who betrays you in the upcoming war

Have a spineless person in charge of the war effort who tells the alliance to surrender and then leavs in the middle of the war, abandoning the field

Have an even bigger crisis when the tri becomes spineless and disbands the alliance by trying to trick us to go to the POW camps and alleuding to some "plan" when the plan was to disband

True, the leadership at the time was lacking, and the war came at the worst time ever. But Polar didn't face the same challenges. Polar didn't face that big of a coalition that was left, we had allies dropping out left and right from that war while we wanted to stay in. Our leaders left us on the battlefield, and with no alliance left to fight for what would you?

What wold you do in the same situation?

Stop trying to compare Polaris' achievements to \m/, \m/ had different hardships than Polar did, and \m/'s hardships proved too much for the tri we had in place at the time.

[Nintenderek]

The HILARIOUS thing about this is that when NpO's time came, even with ample warning, they didn't fare nearly as well as \m/ did, and they went down like a sack of potatoes. Even when they knew they'd be allowed surrender terms.

So please stop talking about performing poorly in war while you're wearing that AA of yours

You don't know who \m/ was, do you?

[Moridin]

caliph on Coldfront, query me if you want to talk about this.

That said, put \m/ back, get Polar and ban Polar's best leaders, and then have the other half of their leaders run to one of their allies, and then right when Polar gets a gov in place then DOW them and their allies in a huge war.

A month before the war, Electron Sponge was couped and Random was forced to step down because NPO didn't like him. Polar had its leadership removed just as \m/ did, the only differences were the reason for which they were removed, and the caliber of the leaders that replaced them.

Then when one of Polars allies say something have \m/'s allies play the "OOC attack" trump card and get most of Polar's allies out of hte war immediately,

I don't think TPF qualifies as "most"; Genmay and GOONS and various other alliances were still fighting at that point. Regardless, it's a terrible point, considering Polar actually did have most of its allies cancel in the time leading up to the War of the Coalition. In fact, that war was much more lopsided against Polar than the UJW was against the UJP even after the departure of TPF.

and then tell Polar they can get the following terms: every members sends a personalized apology to every members of \m/, Polar becomes subservient to Polar and has a Viceroy indefinately but \m/ is under no obgliation to help Polar defend themselves, indefinately de-militerization and indefinate reps for an indefiante period.

Then see how well Polar does.

\m/ got those 'terms' because it was only slightly more than a week into the war and \m/ was begging for peace. Unless my take on the Coalition is very much mistaken, Polar wouldn't have received real terms after such a short time either.

I don't get how or why this thread turned into an \m/ pity party; no alliance that gives up and disbands 9 days into a war deserves sympathy in my book. \m/ certainly faced serious challenges that most alliances haven't faced, and I wouldn't doubt that there are other alliances out there today that would cave under similar circumstances. Polar, however, faced very similar challenges and pulled through nonetheless. Maybe if \m/ hadn't decided to disband they could have rebuilt and become a power once again; we'll never know, because the alliance decided to give up when the going got tough.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Moridin

[astronaut jones]

\m/'s test was this:

BAN half of their gov

The rest of the gov and backup gov leave to one of your allies who betrays you in the upcoming war

Have a spineless person in charge of the war effort who tells the alliance to surrender and then leavs in the middle of the war, abandoning the field

Have an even bigger crisis when the tri becomes spineless and disbands the alliance by trying to trick us to go to the POW camps and alleuding to some "plan" when the plan was to disband

True, the leadership at the time was lacking, and the war came at the worst time ever. But Polar didn't face the same challenges. Polar didn't face that big of a coalition that was left, we had allies dropping out left and right from that war while we wanted to stay in. Our leaders left us on the battlefield, and with no alliance left to fight for what would you?

What wold you do in the same situation?

Stop trying to compare Polaris' achievements to \m/, \m/ had different hardships than Polar did, and \m/'s hardships proved too much for the tri we had in place at the time.

Jason8 was still there when I left, he was more competent at that time than either of the two members who got banned. One of those members was a senseless, brainless hothead who would hold pointless grudges against members for DAYS on end, and act like a petulant child all the time. The other was only SLIGHTLY better, but had the good sense not to yell and scream, but was still an inept leader if I had ever seen one before. Jason8 was the best thing they had. If he left, well, I guess that's his fault.

The members of \m/, instead of standing up, went crazy. The inmates officially ran the asylum. So, as a whole, it was a worthless alliance that deserved to die. Instead of standing tall, they caved. Instead of rallying around the alliance in a time of need, they would attack members who dared to leave. And I don't mean verbally attack, I mean they would launch wars against them.

Good riddance. \m/'s legacy should be that of cowardice and of caving when push came to shove.

Like I've said, NpO stood up, they did their members proud, and their members did their alliance proud, and they survive, and they've thrived, and they're now one of the better alliances in all of PB.

[Doitzel]

Like I said, the situations were different as \m/ had the ire of certain people in power at the time that Polar never had to deal with.

?!?!?!?!?!

Are you fo-rizzle?!

[Vilien]

?!?!?!?!?!

Are you fo-rizzle?!

I'm not liking this new astronaut jones-Doitzel hybrid.

[Doitzel]

I'm not liking this new astronaut jones-Doitzel hybrid.

Sorry, too much wine on my screen for me to take the time to come up with anything more "me".

[Mathias]

I'm trying to decide whether this is a joke or not.

I was being sarcastic, I fought with NpO during that war.

[hizzy]

Penkala you're being dumb. Polaris was attacked by a coalition that was what? 7 times as powerful? Never mind the TOP/Gremlins combo. Trust me, as Bob Janova can back me up on this; your infra disappears far too fast for you to even consider launching counter attacks. The only thing you can do is turtle, continue to lob nukes, and hope that they screw up their stagger.

That being said though, Gremlins' air force didn't stand a chance.

And about the coalition of cowards thing, someone was correcting someone else; ya, the CoC is a term given in the Karma War, but incidentally it's the same people who Echelon aligned with so... all the same.

[Vilien]

Sorry, too much wine on my screen for me to take the time to come up with anything more "me".

I'm confused as to whether you're holding your computer in a way that allows wine to puddle on it or if wine simply erupted from your mouth onto your screen.

[Caliph]

A month before the war, Electron Sponge was couped and Random was forced to step down because NPO didn't like him. Polar had its leadership removed just as \m/ did, the only differences were the reason for which they were removed, and the caliber of the leaders that replaced them.

ES could have come back, our leaders were removed from the "universe" with no chance to come back, ever. In fact, one tried recently, it hasn't gone so well as the powers that be have not allowed his re-entrance to the universe.

And you forgot that the rest of our competent leadership left to NATO, one of our allies, right before the war. Polar's gov, aside from ES, largely stayed the same and didn't have an exodus to an ally.

I don't think TPF qualifies as "most"; Genmay and GOONS and various other alliances were still fighting at that point. Regardless, it's a terrible point, considering Polar actually did have most of its allies cancel in the time leading up to the War of the Coalition. In fact, that war was much more lopsided against Polar than the UJW was against the UJP even after the departure of TPF.

Most of the UJP was looking to get out, Superfriends was getting peace with GGA, MK outright surrendered at hte same time TPF got white peace (funny how white peace came around to TPF but not to MK or any other combatants on the UjP side), and most of the Unjust Highway was seeking to exit. In under a week after that incident the UjP was left with about 7 mill NS between all 8 or so of the alliances left. Polar had treaty cancellations, true, and had allies like MCXA and Echelon betray them, true, but did not have the same gov crisis.

\m/ got those 'terms' because it was only slightly more than a week into the war and \m/ was begging for peace. Unless my take on the Coalition is very much mistaken, Polar wouldn't have received real terms after such a short time either.

Part of it was ES holding a grudge because he thought the WUT was full of !@#$@#$ "cigarettes" who were "nobodies" and gave us "joke terms for a joke alliance". And part of it was we had weak leadership who was too spineless at the time to tell Sponge to kiss off after hearing those terms.

believe me I know we had bad gov at the time because all the good gov was removed from the universe or left to go to an ally who betrayed us and thus never came back to help us in our time of need.

I don't get how or why this thread turned into an \m/ pity party; no alliance that gives up and disbands 9 days into a war deserves sympathy in my book. \m/ certainly faced serious challenges that most alliances haven't faced, and I wouldn't doubt that there are other alliances out there today that would cave under similar circumstances. Polar, however, faced very similar challenges and pulled through nonetheless. Maybe if \m/ hadn't decided to disband they could have rebuilt and become a power once again; we'll never know, because the alliance decided to give up when the going got tough.

I'm not trying to turn it into a pity party, I'm saying that the \m/ situation is more complex than people were trying to pass it off as, and I want the truth to be told, not some propoganda historical revisionism !@#$%^&*.

Jason8 was still there when I left, he was more competent at that time than either of the two members who got banned. One of those members was a senseless, brainless hothead who would hold pointless grudges against members for DAYS on end, and act like a petulant child all the time. The other was only SLIGHTLY better, but had the good sense not to yell and scream, but was still an inept leader if I had ever seen one before. Jason8 was the best thing they had. If he left, well, I guess that's his fault.

The Banned leaders at the time had more balls and spine than our tri at the UjW had, and if anything would have at least kept \m/ together, instead our tri at the time let themselves be ruled by "but they don't like us" and "omg our pixels" and when faced with advercity, they didn't step up and take control and let themselves be ruled by fear. It was our poor leadership at the time that did us in, and what I continue to say is no other alliance faced such a leadership crisis as \m/ did, and to blame the performance on our gov without acknowledging the whole story regarding our gov isn't right.

The members of \m/, instead of standing up, went crazy. The inmates officially ran the asylum. So, as a whole, it was a worthless alliance that deserved to die. Instead of standing tall, they caved. Instead of rallying around the alliance in a time of need, they would attack members who dared to leave. And I don't mean verbally attack, I mean they would launch wars against them.

um, we had a gov, they just didn't have the spine to keep us together and present a unified front. we had our war leaders put a bawwing post on the forums, ordering us to surrender, and then promptly left for a POW camp, we had one tri immediately after tell us to surrender, and then a day later had the whole tri tell us to disband. our only notice was on the OWF.

Our leadership sucked then, yes i know, but when all your best leadership was either removed from this existence or betray you, and you have a replacement gov that doesn't have a whole lot of experience, what do you expect? Any alliance who would stand tall in that exact same situation would be strong beyond measure.

Stop trying to claim outside influences had nothing to do with our downfall.

Good riddance. \m/'s legacy should be that of cowardice and of caving when push came to shove.

This is why \m/ is still blamed for tech raiding, all the crimes of the GGA, all the crimes of the WUT, and is generally the big bad boogeymen that was so feared 1 year after our disbandment the ~ coalition had to confirm they were still at war with a dead alliance? Thats why there were so many threads warning \m/ to not come back. And an equal number of threads missing us. Sure, belittle us now but our legacy is strong.

Like I've said, NpO stood up, they did their members proud, and their members did their alliance proud, and they survive, and they've thrived, and they're now one of the better alliances in all of PB.

Right, and credit the Polar for doing that, however Polar's struggle and \m/'s struggle are very difference considering the events of Black Friday played a huge part, in addition to the betrayal of our gov at the time and other events.

But sure, try to claim that Polar could stand tall with all its competent leadership either removed from existence or leaving, all at once, leaving behind a leadership vacuum in the middle of a Cold War that shortly after turned hot.

[hizzy]

I'm confused as to whether you're holding your computer in a way that allows wine to puddle on it or if wine simply erupted from your mouth onto your screen.

I think he meant to say "whine" as in there's people crying on the interwebs and he's fed up. I dunno.

[Caliph]

?!?!?!?!?!

Are you fo-rizzle?!

Yeah, for rizzle my nizzle, hit me up on IRC-izzle and talk-izzle about this shiz-izzle.

Caliph on coldfront, hit me up

[Xiphosis]

Yeah, that's true. Though after they weakened me, even Legion was able to beat me.

Needa work on that then man, cause they were really soft compared to virtually everyone else I've ever fought.