Alterego Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Anyone attempting to use recent events as a means to bring war to Athens' doorstep will regret it. I assure you. Yeah MK just said that. I assume you are just repeating what they said because we all know unlike them, you would run away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Fingolfin Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 This is why Archon is respected. Sticking up for allies, keeping it decent, and most of all using big words that 95% of CN players never understood Emphasis mine. I think you're the only one here who feels that way, perhaps you should introduce yourself to a dictionary so you won't get mistaken for a blithering idiot. Or maybe you're just a sycophant who is sucking up to Archon. Wait...do you know what sycophant means? In any case. I applaud MK in that they pledge their support to their ally. However, I would hope that Athens has learned a lesson from this and hope that MK's support won't only enforce bad behavior as being acceptable. Oh and Grub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style #386 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) I find this highly amusing. You will just use the Optional clause in your treaty as opposed to just flat out breaking the treaty? Yes you are right I will regret that we would have given you the opportunity to not actually break a treaty... Just to ignore it. If you have a problem then state it outright and quit beating around the bush. Yeah MK just said that. I assume you are just repeating what they said because we all know unlike them, you would run away. Keep telling yourself that, pumpkin. Edited November 15, 2009 by Style #386 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gofastleft Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 this is why I respect Archon and MK so much. Loyalty, but not blind loyalty. Instead of following some others giving blind support he has come in and said they screwed up and he is working to "educate them". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Levistus Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) That's a "fair-weather friend" load of crap. If you're going to run out on your treaty partners just because they're to blame for an incident, then your MDP should have just said "We stand by [alliance], whenever they're popular and not at war." Now, the reason you make a treaty partner is because, hopefully, you know the alliance well enough to know whether or not they will take absurd, idiotic actions. But, once you commit to defending an alliance from attack, you do fulfill your contractual obligations. If anybody in CN had a lick of since (a brash concept), nobody would ever sign a binding treaty with an alliance that had previously violated a treaty (ODN, MHA, etc.) because it then becomes a null and void, half-commited, one-way agreement, and does not in any way serve either alliance for the better. In response to the OP, Archon, I respect your tenacity and loyalty. However, your post seems like you're trying to scare whoever is reading it, and I fear no man: not you, not anyone. If I was the leader of an alliance, and I had wanted to attack Athens for this (which I wouldn't), this little intimidation attempt wouldn't deter me in the slightest. So, I don't like the way you worded it, but I do respect what you're saying If MK dropped Athens or watched Athens get rolled over this then I'd agree, they aren't worthy of respect. This isn't what's happening though. This post is being perceived as a Statement of Support for Athens (wrongly or not) which would imply that MK backs the decision in actions if not words. edit: Politically, MK could have said nothing and allowed Londo and KoNi! to resolve this issue w/o vocal support from Archon without any loss of respect or weakening their position with their allies. This was an Athens/FoB matter, not a C&G matter unless something actually came of it. edit 2: I think my eyes are bleeding after reading so many pages of this crap, i'm just hoping it's over now. Edited November 15, 2009 by Lord Levistus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 They maintain that they've done nothing wrong, and that we're all just too small-minded to see it. Why should we possibly believe that they are trying to rectify a situation that they see as already full of rectitude? Read it again, nobody said they did nothing wrong. We said that if any of the vultures smelling blood and trying to turn this into an excuse to come gunning for Athens actually do something, they will have to go through us. I second Grub's query. Why are the Orders the only alliances who must be held accountable for their actions. I'm glad there is such an swelling of support for Athens actions. Athens is being held accountable, but we will not leave them to burn for this mistake. It was a dumb move that they are making efforts to correct, we really don't care if we disappoint the people who'd rather we leave them to the wolves. Why thats because their are no consequences its all in fun of course. Athens has shown us all the way. A mass tech raid on an alliance is not war nor an act of war. Its just good fun. Get over yourself for a second. Either you raid a 5 man alliance or a 40 man alliance with no treaties, one thing is certain: nobody gave a damn they even existed prior to this. By your self righteous logic, we'd have several scandals like this every single time an alliance of any size gets raided. Do you care more about the alliance that got raided, or the fact that it happened to be Athens doing it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigwoody Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 If you read the conversation, I admitted to Ramon that yes the raid was wrong. I should not have authorized it. It was an enormous error in judgement, and I am sorry for it. That is why I am making amends. Are you actually going to make amends? I will be impressed if you do. On topic, good stance, Arclobster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timitz Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Good to see an alliance sticking up for its ally. It's a sad state of affairs in the Cyberverse when people are pleasantly surprised to see alliances sticking up for their allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWilliam Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 MK's loyalty has never been in question, and I doubt it ever will be. You'd think so; then again, seemingly to some the only way to hold an ally accountable is presumably to cancel on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Anyone attempting to use recent events as a means to bring war to Athens' doorstep will regret it. I assure you. Unless they are in the weaker side of the a "hipotetic" war so you wouldn't enact the optional clause of your optional treaty you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 You'd think so; then again, seemingly to some the only way to hold an ally accountable is presumably to cancel on them. When you hold an MADP that presents some difficult situations politically, this is one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vilien Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 When you hold an MADP that presents some difficult situations politically, this is one of them. Difficult? By what kind of screwed up, piss poor logic would you ever consider starting a major war over this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Style #386 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Unless they are in the weaker side of the a "hipotetic" war so you wouldn't enact the optional clause of your optional treaty you mean? Hurrr, let's make this into an ODN thread. And you don't get to decide what we do in "hypotetic" wars, thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 When you hold an MADP that presents some difficult situations politically, this is one of them. I find MADPs to make political situations rather much simpler, to be quite honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solanine Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Emphasis mine. I think you're the only one here who feels that way, perhaps you should introduce yourself to a dictionary so you won't get mistaken for a blithering idiot. Or maybe you're just a sycophant who is sucking up to Archon. Wait...do you know what sycophant means?In any case. I applaud MK in that they pledge their support to their ally. However, I would hope that Athens has learned a lesson from this and hope that MK's support won't only enforce bad behavior as being acceptable. Oh and Grub So am I right in the understanding that, while you don't approve of changing some [ooc]pixels around in a game[/ooc], you're perfectly fine with stooping to the level of needless name calling? What a fine acreage of moral high ground you have there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Bad Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Read it again, nobody said they did nothing wrong. We said that if any of the vultures smelling blood and trying to turn this into an excuse to come gunning for Athens actually do something, they will have to go through us.Athens is being held accountable, but we will not leave them to burn for this mistake. It was a dumb move that they are making efforts to correct, we really don't care if we disappoint the people who'd rather we leave them to the wolves. Get over yourself for a second. Either you raid a 5 man alliance or a 40 man alliance with no treaties, one thing is certain: nobody gave a damn they even existed prior to this. By your self righteous logic, we'd have several scandals like this every single time an alliance of any size gets raided. Do you care more about the alliance that got raided, or the fact that it happened to be Athens doing it? I don't care about either. I do enjoy alliances doing stupid things and then watching as the same arguments they used to defend themselves are then turned on them. And it all could have been avoided if someone had just used a little common sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunstar Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 (edited) You will just use the Optional clause in your treaty as opposed to just flat out breaking the treaty? Yes you are right I will regret that we would have given you the opportunity to not actually break a treaty... Just to ignore it. If you're so sure, try it. Also, back on topic and such. Edited November 15, 2009 by Sunstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delendum Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Well, I wasn't trying to be cute. I was asking a serious question. I wouldn't answer it either. Another serious question. How is this any different than when the NPO let their smaller allies do whatever they wanted without any fear of retribution?MK is certainly in a rough situation here, but to outright support Athens in this is to make it clear that Athens is allowed to declare wars and get away with it where other alliances would have to pay for their mistakes. For those of us who have spent years fighting against that kind of thing, well, it changes things a bit. Athens was not out to destroy these guys, it was not some sort of petty feud on account of them looking the wrong way. Take it as you will, in essence it was a scaled up tech raid. Dumb? Absolutely. But Athens are trying to make amends - and we definitely don't think they deserve to burn for this mistake. We are not happy about this either, but we will not let our allies burn for what can be settled a lot easier through countless other means. If people would have been so certain that anybody attacking that alliance will have to pay, they would have held treaties with them. What I smell between the few glimpses of true morality is a big pile of opportunism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedj Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Archon, I love you dearly, but I will go through you if you stand in my way... but you know that already. I am tired of the only alliances being accountable for their deliberate actions as being ones that have Order in their name. Grubby, we've had words during the noCB war, during the Karma war and damn near everytime in between so is there REALLY a need for posturing and threats when this doesnt even come CLOSE to involving you Good show, MK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D34th Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hurrr, let's make this into an ODN thread. And you don't get to decide what we do in "hypotetic" wars, thank you very much. Yeah I don't get, I just think is highly amusing see an alliance with a past history of not honoring their treaties posturing about wars and support of allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Difficult? By what kind of screwed up, piss poor logic would you ever consider starting a major war over this? Because it means that you much more strongly support the actions of your allies than if you had an oA or something similar, and when they do things you may disagree with, that remains the case. I'm not saying that someone will start a war over this (lol, there would be literally no CB unless MASH somehow decided to honor their treaty which is not really a treaty but kinda is, bring a lot of friends, and something magical happen there?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEraser Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 If you have a problem then state it outright and quit beating around the bush. OK. ODN is a bunch of cowards that are hardly fit to continue existing as an alliance. As soon as things look rough, you kick into survival mode and run away with your tail b/t your legs. that about sum it up for ya bud this announcement is incredibly disappointing to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Destruction Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 What Londo did was stupid. We're not denying that. However, as longtime allies, and more importantly, friends, we will stick by him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalkerNinja Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 Once again, I've addressed this already with Crymson. That being said, if you think it's your job to act as moral hammer and destroy a bloc of alliances just because one tech raided a group of 39 then you've got that high horse shoved up a bit too high, methinks. I'm sorry Archon. You are normally the still small voice of reason in the midst of the tempest, but you posting on Athens' behalf that you will help them correct their mistake bears the same level of intellectual honesty as any old war-guilt clause tacked on to a set of surrender terms. Lest you think that opposing tech-raiding is a new hobby of mine, you should check my record. Thugs like the Poison Clan earn my ire all the time. I specifically choose my tech sellers from tech raid victims. Thuggery on such an unprecedented level as this will no doubt inspire an equally unprecedented response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essenia Posted November 15, 2009 Report Share Posted November 15, 2009 MK's loyalty has never been in question, and I doubt it ever will be. Good show. BAPS would disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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